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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Harry Bosch said:
By coincidence, I just listened to a reporter interviewing a Russian speaking Estonian woman who parroted exactly what Barbos said above. That Ukraine is bombing itself. We are arming Ukraine with the weapons that Ukraine is using to destroy their own cities. Unbelievable. And she has access to western media. In fact, Russian TV is currently banned in Estonia. The interview was on a BBC podcast, "The documentary" dated May 18. Putler has created a sick demented cult in Russia in which it appears, that people will believe in despite common logic and facts. To have a large powerful country with people who are so deluded is truly scary. The west is going to be at war with Russia for a long time....
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The ethnic Russian population in Estonia tends to listen mainly to Russian media, because that is the language that they are most comfortable with. Barbos seems to have access to Western sources and speaks English, but he clearly relies almost exclusively on Russian sources for his information on the war. I speak Russian, but I only monitor the Russian media and other foreign sources sporadically, finding it much easier to switch to a Google Translate English version when I want to read quickly or jumping back and forth between Russian and English versions. My time for reading a lot of different source materials is limited, so that limits how much non-English source material I can cover.

Russian speakers in Estonia live in a tug of war between Russia and the West​

 
Western reporting in te past says a majority of Russians belive the Putin narrative.

There was a report of a Ukrainian usng facial recognition to identify abandoned dead Russians soldiers. He identified some and contacted family in Russia saying they coud come and get the bodies. There were a few who said they would, others resounding with statements like we will kill all Ukrainians.


I do not think we will say a large scale protest against the war. War excites patriotism. I am sure the Nazi invasion is to Russia what Pearl Harbor is to us.

We had a pointless decades long war in Afghanistan over 9/11 followed by a pointless war in Iraq. There was widespread support by people in the press for GWB's war at the start.
 
steve_bank said:
Western reporting in te past says a majority of Russians belive the Putin narrative.

There was a report of a Ukrainian usng facial recognition to identify abandoned dead Russians soldiers. He identified some and contacted family in Russia saying they coud come and get the bodies. There were a few who said they would, others resounding with statements like we will kill all Ukrainians.


I do not think we will say a large scale protest against the war. War excites patriotism. I am sure the Nazi invasion is to Russia what Pearl Harbor is to us.

We had a pointless decades long war in Afghanistan over 9/11 followed by a pointless war in Iraq. There was widespread support by people in the press for GWB's war at the start.
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Bullshit. Russia is a police state run by a ruthless tyrant. This is not like what we experience here in the U.S. I remember protests against the Vietnam War. Millions of people were opposed and voiced that opposition. They didn't end up arrested and imprisoned as a rule. How is it that persons like yourself so easily gloss over these stark differences?

Yes, people can be patriotic when they feel threatened. Threatened! Like if the thugs are going to come to my house and arrest me or poison my underwear if I voice my opposition.

Please don't equate Russia with the U.S. or any functioning democracy this way. It's just fucking wrong.
 
T.G.G. Moogly said:
steve_bank said:
Western reporting in te past says a majority of Russians belive the Putin narrative.

There was a report of a Ukrainian usng facial recognition to identify abandoned dead Russians soldiers. He identified some and contacted family in Russia saying they coud come and get the bodies. There were a few who said they would, others resounding with statements like we will kill all Ukrainians.


I do not think we will say a large scale protest against the war. War excites patriotism. I am sure the Nazi invasion is to Russia what Pearl Harbor is to us.

We had a pointless decades long war in Afghanistan over 9/11 followed by a pointless war in Iraq. There was widespread support by people in the press for GWB's war at the start.
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Bullshit. Russia is a police state run by a ruthless tyrant. This is not like what we experience here in the U.S. I remember protests against the Vietnam War. Millions of people were opposed and voiced that opposition. They didn't end up arrested and imprisoned as a rule. How is it that persons like yourself so easily gloss over these stark differences?

Yes, people can be patriotic when they feel threatened. Threatened! Like if the thugs are going to come to my house and arrest me or poison my underwear if I voice my opposition.

Please don't equate Russia with the U.S. or any functioning democracy this way. It's just fucking wrong.
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Yes iot is a police stae and media is controlled. However western reporting has said Putin does have a majority support. Russians are just as patriotic as any others.

Just look at Trump and his supporters, and we have a free press where his falsehoods are repeatedly proven wrong. Yet Christians on the right look the iter way saying they see his immorality but it does not matter, he promotes their values. That the election was stolen has a wide belief.
 
steve_bank said:
T.G.G. Moogly said:
steve_bank said:
Western reporting in te past says a majority of Russians belive the Putin narrative.

There was a report of a Ukrainian usng facial recognition to identify abandoned dead Russians soldiers. He identified some and contacted family in Russia saying they coud come and get the bodies. There were a few who said they would, others resounding with statements like we will kill all Ukrainians.


I do not think we will say a large scale protest against the war. War excites patriotism. I am sure the Nazi invasion is to Russia what Pearl Harbor is to us.

We had a pointless decades long war in Afghanistan over 9/11 followed by a pointless war in Iraq. There was widespread support by people in the press for GWB's war at the start.
Click to expand...
Bullshit. Russia is a police state run by a ruthless tyrant. This is not like what we experience here in the U.S. I remember protests against the Vietnam War. Millions of people were opposed and voiced that opposition. They didn't end up arrested and imprisoned as a rule. How is it that persons like yourself so easily gloss over these stark differences?

Yes, people can be patriotic when they feel threatened. Threatened! Like if the thugs are going to come to my house and arrest me or poison my underwear if I voice my opposition.

Please don't equate Russia with the U.S. or any functioning democracy this way. It's just fucking wrong.
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Yes it is a police state and media is controlled.
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Yesiree. That explains a lot.
 
Barbos's obsession with a handful of neo-nazis in Ukraine is cute.

It's like, should we be worried about the fascist state that tried to obliterate the culture of its neighbors and take their land and wealth through violent aggression in the 1940's, or the one doing it now in the 2020's?
 
I found some articles on Noam Chomsky's positions.

Noam Chomsky, Jeremy Scahill on the Russia-Ukraine War - Apr 14

Noam Chomsky: Trump Is The "One Western Statesman" Pushing For Diplomacy To End Ukraine War | Video | RealClearPolitics - May 1

Which is far too generous. The truth about Trump is much closer to what he said nearly six years ago: Noam Chomsky: "Hitler Was A Sincere, Dedicated Ideologue -- Trump Isn't" | Video | RealClearPolitics - 2016 Nov 29

Noam Chomsky Says Ukraine Desire for Heavy Weapons Is 'Western Propaganda' - May 13

NC seems like he is willing to give Vladimir Putin the sort of pass that he does not give to the US foreign-policy establishment.
 
Here's a good video on how Swedes and Finns see Russia. Historically we've seen Russia a bit like herpes. You can't make it go away. But you can do your best to manage the symptoms. Russia has always been a horrible neighbour to Finland.

 
I think most people are patriotic to some degree, in any country.

If Canada offered United States a tract of land to connect Washington with Alaska, at no cost, most Americans would probably agree that it's a nice thing to have, even if they lived in neither state. Bigger America, better America.

If there were a few Canadians who objected, their objections might be pushed aside because of greater good, and imagine all the trade and development it would cause. And Canadians speak English so they wouldn't even have to leave their homes, they'd just live in the US. And doesn't it make more sense to have each country be contiguous? That's better for everyone.

Now that you have the idea in your head that western coast of Canada belongs to the US, even if more Canadians objected, that would just seem like they're just being greedy. Maybe some of them even take arms, and start terrorizing America. Those ingrates. They should have their land taken from them for being so unreasonable.

And there you go. What patriotic American wouldn't support a special military operation to build a land bridge to Alaska? And unpatriotic Americans obviously shouldn't have a say in it, they're colluding with the enemy!
 
zorq said:
Barbos's obsession with a handful of neo-nazis in Ukraine is cute.

It's like, should we be worried about the fascist state that tried to obliterate the culture of its neighbors and take their land and wealth through violent aggression in the 1940's, or the one doing it now in the 2020's?
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I think if you could find more nazis at an average CPAC conference.
 
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I note that some intercepted phone calls from angry Russian soldiers in Ukraine have been intercepted. Disgusted by lack of equipment fuel, food and hopelessness, apparently some Russian soldiers are planning to desert starting on the 26th, Going home. Some are shooting them selves to be sent home. Stay tuned for this on the 26th. Meanwhile, estimates are being made that 30% of Russian, military personnel have been killed, wounded, or captured. How long can that keep going on?
 
Jayjay said:
I think most people are patriotic to some degree, in any country.

If Canada offered United States a tract of land to connect Washington with Alaska, at no cost, most Americans would probably agree that it's a nice thing to have, even if they lived in neither state. Bigger America, better America.

If there were a few Canadians who objected, their objections might be pushed aside because of greater good, and imagine all the trade and development it would cause. And Canadians speak English so they wouldn't even have to leave their homes, they'd just live in the US. And doesn't it make more sense to have each country be contiguous? That's better for everyone.

Now that you have the idea in your head that western coast of Canada belongs to the US, even if more Canadians objected, that would just seem like they're just being greedy. Maybe some of them even take arms, and start terrorizing America. Those ingrates. They should have their land taken from them for being so unreasonable.

And there you go. What patriotic American wouldn't support a special military operation to build a land bridge to Alaska? And unpatriotic Americans obviously shouldn't have a say in it, they're colluding with the enemy!
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Alaska Highway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The Alaska Highway (French: Route de l'Alaska; also known as the Alaskan Highway, Alaska-Canadian Highway, or ALCAN Highway) was constructed during World War II to connect the contiguous United States to Alaska across Canada. It begins at the junction with several Canadian highways in Dawson Creek, British Columbia, and runs to Delta Junction, Alaska, via Whitehorse, Yukon. When it was completed in 1942, it was about 2,700 kilometres (1,700 mi) long, but in 2012, it was only 2,232 km (1,387 mi). This is due to the continuing reconstruction of the highway, which has rerouted and straightened many sections. The highway opened to the public in 1948.[1] Once legendary for being a rough, challenging drive, the highway is now paved over its entire length.[2] Its component highways are British Columbia Highway 97, Yukon Highway 1 and Alaska Route 2.
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Put could probably hve negotiated a road to Russia's naval base.
 
lpetrich said:
I found some articles on Noam Chomsky's positions.

Noam Chomsky, Jeremy Scahill on the Russia-Ukraine War - Apr 14

Noam Chomsky: Trump Is The "One Western Statesman" Pushing For Diplomacy To End Ukraine War | Video | RealClearPolitics - May 1

Which is far too generous. The truth about Trump is much closer to what he said nearly six years ago: Noam Chomsky: "Hitler Was A Sincere, Dedicated Ideologue -- Trump Isn't" | Video | RealClearPolitics - 2016 Nov 29

Noam Chomsky Says Ukraine Desire for Heavy Weapons Is 'Western Propaganda' - May 13

NC seems like he is willing to give Vladimir Putin the sort of pass that he does not give to the US foreign-policy establishment.
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At this point does nayone actually think Putin will negotite, and even if he did he coud be trusted?

The video of Trump passively sitting next to Putin kissing his ass saying he believes everything Putin says makes me sick as an American. Trump a western statesman, give me a break.

I was not aware Chompsky was a Trump fascist.
 
steve_bank said:
lpetrich said:
I found some articles on Noam Chomsky's positions.

Noam Chomsky, Jeremy Scahill on the Russia-Ukraine War - Apr 14

Noam Chomsky: Trump Is The "One Western Statesman" Pushing For Diplomacy To End Ukraine War | Video | RealClearPolitics - May 1

Which is far too generous. The truth about Trump is much closer to what he said nearly six years ago: Noam Chomsky: "Hitler Was A Sincere, Dedicated Ideologue -- Trump Isn't" | Video | RealClearPolitics - 2016 Nov 29

Noam Chomsky Says Ukraine Desire for Heavy Weapons Is 'Western Propaganda' - May 13

NC seems like he is willing to give Vladimir Putin the sort of pass that he does not give to the US foreign-policy establishment.
Click to expand...
At this point does nayone actually think Putin will negotite, and even if he did he coud be trusted?

The video of Trump passively sitting next to Putin kissing his ass saying he believes everything Putin says makes me sick as an American. Trump a western statesman, give me a break.

I was not aware Chompsky was a Trump fascist.
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Agreed. Russia can't be trusted. It's possible that Chomp is getting a little bit addled. The May 13 interview was bizarre.
 
My impression of Chomsky was a tenured professor not living in the real world.

If he really called Trump a statesman it reveals who he really is. Or he is entering old age dementia.
 
Boris Bondarev, counselor at the Permanent Mission of the Russian Federation to the United Nations, has resigned his post in protest over the February invasion of Ukraine. He has posted his resignation letter in his Linkedin account, and I am posting it here in its entirety. Bondarev is the highest level Russian official so far to voice public opposition to the war. Others have resigned but not made public statements. Unlike our outspoken self-appointed spokesman for Russia in this forum, Bondarev has actually been a spokesman for Russia over the past 20 years.

Long overdue, but today I resign from civil service. Enough is enough.

For twenty years of my diplomatic career I have seen different turns of our foreign policy, but never have I been so ashamed of my country as on February 24 of this year. The aggressive war unleashed by Putin against Ukraine, and in fact against the entire Western world, is not only a crime against the Ukrainian people, but also, perhaps, the most serious crime against the people of Russia, with a bold letter Z crossing out all hopes and prospects for a prosperous free society in our country.

Those who conceived this war want only one thing - to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail on yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity. To achieve that they are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes. Thousands of Russians and Ukrainians have already died just for this.

I regret to admit that over all these twenty years the level of lies and unprofessionalism in the work of the Foreign Ministry has been increasing all the time. However, in most recent years, this has become simply catastrophic. Instead of unbiased information, impartial analysis and sober forecasting, there are propaganda clichés in the spirit of Soviet newspapers of the 1930s. A system has been built that deceives itself.

Minister Lavrov is a good illustration of the degradation of this system. In 18 years, he went from a professional and educated intellectual, whom many my colleagues held in such high esteem, to a person who constantly broadcasts conflicting statements and threatens the world (that is, Russia too) with nuclear weapons!

Today, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not about diplomacy. It is all about warmongering, lies and hatred. It serves interests of few, the very few people thus contributing to further isolation and degradation of my country. Russia no longer has allies, and there is no one to blame but its reckless and ill-conceived policy.

I studied to be a diplomat and have been a diplomat for twenty years. The Ministry has become my home and family. But I simply cannot any longer share in this bloody, witless and absolutely needless ignominy.
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Contacted by the Associated Press, Bondarev said he had no intention of leaving Geneva. Apparently, he is going into exile, but Putin may well send an execution squad out for him.

See WaPo story: ‘Ashamed’ Russian diplomat resigns over Putin’s ‘aggressive war’
 
zorq said:
Barbos's obsession with a handful of neo-nazis in Ukraine is cute.

It's like, should we be worried about the fascist state that tried to obliterate the culture of its neighbors and take their land and wealth through violent aggression in the 1940's, or the one doing it now in the 2020's?
Click to expand...
Well, he keeps calling for the denazification of Ukraine. From what we've seen the Ukrainian army is doing a pretty good job of that. Moscow keeps sending them, Ukraine denazifies them.
 
The history of Russian exiles and critical ex-pats says he may not be long lived.
 
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