• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Mearsheimer takes some positions that you find compatible with your own, since he makes a point of assigning more blame to the Western Alliance and NATO than Russia for the messes in Eastern Europe.
That's an excellent misrepresentation of his stance.
Prove it. This is a discussion group, not Twitter. And don't tell me to just go watch the video, which I already did. Tell us what he said that makes you think I misrepresented him. Not everyone who watches a video of a lecture is going to come away with the same impressions and conclusions that you did.
 
I've asked you many times whether you agreed with his position that Ukraine should have retained its nuclear weapons in order to deter Russia from exactly the kind of aggressive behavior we are seeing now. You have never once deigned to respond.
You have not asked me once. You merely dug out his very old opinions which you think prove that he can be spectacularly wrong. In doing so you effectively admitted he is right now, otherwise you would have addressed his lecture.

Yes, he was spectacularly wrong 30 years ago. And he knows it, he had 30 years to think about it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Prove it.
No, you prove it.
I made a list where we agreed and there is no list where we disagree. You completely ignored that list preferring making false claims that we (I and Mearsheimer ) disagree. We don't.
 
Last edited:
I've asked you many times whether you agreed with his position that Ukraine should have retained its nuclear weapons in order to deter Russia from exactly the kind of aggressive behavior we are seeing now. You have never once deigned to respond.
You have not asked me once. You merely dug out his very old opinions which you think prove that he can be spectacularly wrong. In doing so you effectively admitted he is right now, otherwise you would have addressed his lecture.

The quote above is from post #502. Here is an excerpt from post #262, which may have been the first time I asked you (see the red boldface text below):

I have actually done what you asked--i.e. watched the video. All you've said about it is that the video endorses ("everything"???) you've said. I don't think so, and it would be interesting to hear what you might have disagreed with. Professor Mearsheimer does endorse some of your claims and conclusions, so it is worth discussing, even though you have said almost nothing about its content. FTR, I really would like to know your opinions about some of the other things he said about Russia and Ukraine. For example, do you agree with him that Ukraine should never have handed its nuclear weapons over to Russia? Do you agree with his stance that Russia should not have invaded Ukraine? I would also be interested in your opinion of the opening remarks in the second video--about the conflict between liberalism and nationalism--but that would take us beyond the thread topic. Mearsheimer was talking primarily to a Romanian and East European audience, but many of the points he was making clearly resonated with some of his colleagues on the panel.

Now answer the question, because you have still avoided answering it. And, if you have evidence that he ever retracted that position, please cite that evidence. As I have said before, Mearsheimer's conclusions overlap with some of your positions, but he arrives at them for entirely different reasons that you seem not to have picked up on.

Yes, he was spectacularly wrong 30 years ago. And he knows it, he had 30 years to think about it.

You thinks so? Cite some evidence to suggest that he now believes Ukraine should have destroyed or transferred its nuclear arsenal to Russia. That is exactly what the Budapest Memo was for--a guarantee by Russia that it would give up any claim to Ukraine's territory in exchange for Ukraine denuclearizing. Mearsheimer believed back then that Ukraine never should have done that, and his prediction that Russia would subsequently get into conflict with Ukraine (despite its formal guarantee that it would not) would be the result of Ukraine no longer having a nuclear deterrent. AFAICT, he still thinks he was right, but I'm happy to consider any evidence you have to the contrary.

Some of Mearsheimer's critics have pointed out that Russia has historically asserted its power successfully by military aggression against neighboring powers. That is how the Russian Empire grew, and that is how the Soviet Union grew and expanded its influence. Their position is that this historical trend is what is really behind Russia's current expansionist policies in the region, and it is the principal reason that so many of its neighboring states have sought alliances with the West--as an insurance policy against Russia's tendency to invade its neighbors and assert its power.

Mearsheimer seems to feel that this kind of behavior is justified for a major regional power, even though he sees Russia as weaker now and fading as a regional power. It is still the largest power in its neighborhood, and Mearsheimer sees Ukraine as essentially a buffer state between the Western Alliance and Russia. However, a lot of other experts appear to think that Russia's historical method of asserting power and influence will not end with Ukraine. And Russia really isn't the weak, fading power that Mearsheimer seems to think it is. So throwing Ukraine under the bus is not going to solve anything for the US or the Western Alliance. It isn't going to invite Ukraine into NATO, but it also isn't going to send the message that Ukraine might as well let itself be absorbed into the new version of the Russian empire. Georgia and the Baltic republics would likely then be the next territories to be grabbed back into the empire.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I just told you that I disagree with 30 year old opinion that Ukraine should have kept nukes.

And what nukes are these anyway? ICBM could not have been used for protection against Russia. Ordinary bombs? Well, good thing they were transferred to Russia
because otherwise they would have been "transferred" to New York or something.
Why all this crap about 30 year old opinion? Why are you fixated on this crap?
Are you trying to imply that Mearsheimer is dumb and his opinions are not valid?
Georgia and the Baltic republics would likely then be the next territories to be grabbed back into the empire.

That's bullshit and Mearsheimer explained why.
Now that I have your retarded question asnwered. Could you finally start addressing Mearsheimer points which I listed for you?
 
However, a lot of other experts appear to think that Russia's historical method of asserting power and influence will not end with Ukraine
other experts? You mean neocon cunts?
Well, yeah, I am aware of that. The whole damn lecture was about these fucking cunts.
 
I know, US/NATO would leave Ukraine alone if Russia becomes "democracy"
You finally admitted that it's not about Ukraine.
Hitler / Poland
Putin / Ukraine

You get the connection.

Stalin / Putin
NATO / Freedom

Word association is fun and easy.

It's refreshing to hear you state that Putinstan is not a democracy. If Stalinist Putinstan would leave Democratic Ukraine alone, problem solved.
 
I know, US/NATO would leave Ukraine alone if Russia becomes "democracy"
You finally admitted that it's not about Ukraine.
Hitler / Poland
Putin / Ukraine

You get the connection.

Stalin / Putin
NATO / Freedom

Word association is fun and easy.

It's refreshing to hear you state that Putinstan is not a democracy. If Stalinist Putinstan would leave Democratic Ukraine alone, problem solved.
No, I don't get the connection.
I put "democracy" in quotes, in case you have not noticed.
And I blame the US for the state of democracy in Russia.
 
Again, you created Putin. You literally created him.
Tsarist Russia created Putin whether you know that or not. What created Tsarist Russia? That's more complicated. It seems that whenever there was western enlightenment thought in Russia it was stamped out by the tsars, the Putins and persons like yourself. Democracy was never able to flourish though it took root in Russia. Too bad for Russians today that so few there understand democratic freedoms.
 
Again, you created Putin. You literally created him.
Tsarist Russia created Putin whether you know that or not. What created Tsarist Russia? That's more complicated. It seems that whenever there was western enlightenment thought in Russia it was stamped out by the tsars, the Putins and persons like yourself. Democracy was never able to flourish though it took root in Russia. Too bad for Russians today that so few there understand democratic freedoms.
Educate yourself a little bit more. Scratch that, educate yourself a lot more.
 
That's just silly.
Being able to delegate blame is important for some people. The fact that Russia is a dictatorship, though not as repressive as in the days of Stalin and the Czars, will eventually change. The planet is just becoming too small. I can remember being so naive at a time in my life as to believe that the Soviet system was superior to western democracy. So I can understand where barbos is coming from. He's like I was when I was thirty.
 
I blame the US for the state of democracy in Russia.

You may as well, since history will blame the current state of democracy in the US, on Russia.
And rightly so.
Putin has done an amazing job on it, in both Countries.
You installed Putin in Russia.
That's just silly.
It is more than silly, it is inane tinfoil material. It is right up there with Trump won the election.

It means rational discussion on this topic is not possible with that poster.
 
That's just silly.
Being able to delegate blame is important for some people. The fact that Russia is a dictatorship, though not as repressive as in the days of Stalin and the Czars, will eventually change. The planet is just becoming too small. I can remember being so naive at a time in my life as to believe that the Soviet system was superior to western democracy. So I can understand where barbos is coming from. He's like I was when I was thirty.
The fantasy depiction of what the Soviet system leads to is definitely superior.

It's just sad that isn't what happens: instead of the proles getting access to the means of production, those who stand victorious and powerful at the head of their armies and as champions of their causes dive headfirst into the mouth of Mammon instead of standing on their principles for whatever reason.

Instead of killing the beast once they have knocked all it's teeth out... They are consumed so as to become it's new teeth.
 
You installed Putin in Russia.

Did Pootey tell you that himself?
Just to inform those you are trying to mislead...

On 9 August 1999, Putin was appointed one of three First Deputy Prime Ministers, and later on that day, was appointed acting Prime Minister of the Government of the Russian Federation by President Yeltsin. Yeltsin also announced that he wanted to see Putin as his successor.
America had nothing - zero, zip, nada to do with it.
Once in power, Pootey began nationalizing and appropriating property and doling it out to those who swore allegiance to him.
Now he's the "richest" man in the world.
Because ... America? Ya sure ya betcha. :hysterical:
To hear barbos talk about it you'd think Trump - or maybe Obama - was running Russia and amassing troops on its neighbors' borders just to make Pootey uncomfortable. .
 
However, a lot of other experts appear to think that Russia's historical method of asserting power and influence will not end with Ukraine
other experts? You mean neocon cunts?
Well, yeah, I am aware of that. The whole damn lecture was about these fucking cunts.
So, are you prepared to state now that your moral support for Putin and Russia would end if Russia invaded any sovereign countries west of East Ukraine? Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland should all be safe from Russian Imperialism?
 
Back
Top Bottom