How should west respond to Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[DrZoidberg]

Details of the security guarantees have not become public but Zelenskyy said Monday they include how a peace deal would be monitored as well as the “presence” of partners. He didn’t elaborate, but Russia has said it won’t accept the deployment in Ukraine of troops from NATO countries.

US offers Ukraine 15-year security guarantee as part of peace plan, Zelenskyy says
If US forces strike Russian forces within Ukraine's internationally recognized borders, I'll buy a MAGA hat.

Trump has damaged trust in America irredeemably. Promises by USA aren't worth anything any longer.

Biden promised never to abandon Ukraine. But Trump did. Later administrations have now have little incentives to honor anything Trump now promises

If Zelenskyy signs any peace deal now its because he thinks the war is unwinnable and that future negotiations will mean more concessions. Not because he believes USA will protect them

One thing I had to come to terms with over these past few years is that I have next to no reliable information on the state of Ukraine with regards to this war and it's foolish of me to speculate. Ukraine has held its cards close.

Not that close. I think mainstream media has been good at covering Ukraine fairly.

I am in a bit of a luxury position since a close friend has married a Ukrainian refugee and I have another Ukrainian refugee as a colleague. I have several friends who have volonteered in Ukraine. And my best friend has a pro Putin Russian girlfriend.

So I get pretty good well rounded information.

Mainstream news seems to accurately reflect what's going on. My impression.

Social media on the other hand = trust nothing.

We're absolutely inundated with bullshit on all sides. Putin has mastered psychological warfare. Considering that Putin is a shameless agressive imperialist its a miracle that anyone takes anything he says seriously. But they do. Which is alarming.

But pro Ukraine propaganda is also unreliable. Ukraine is not a modern democratic state with well functioning institutions. It was a corrupt basket case of dysfunction before the war

What we do have right now is the possibility of the US physically backing Ukraine, of Trump holding Putin's feet to the fire. This is how I read Zelensky's comments. And this agreement would be with Trump. Would a successive administration continue to do so? I think this side of a President JD Vance, yes. Any Democrat or moderately sane Republican would continue to do so. And if Trump doesn't make it through the next three years, Vance will not have the juice in congress to unwind any agreement Trump might come to with Ukraine. Congress will kick back. There are still many old school GOPers who still know what Russia is all about and would execute a strong and vigorous defense of Ukraine, more so than timid Biden did.
If Trump does send a message, it will be unambiguous. Hopefully a MOAB or the like on that goddamn bridge.

But everyone knows Trump keeps changing his mind. Both Trump and Zelenskyy has learned that if they won't get what they want from Trump they can just stall until they do.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trump said so

I know, but he did and despite all your hopes Lindsey is not a President.
Elensky is a pathological liar, like Trump of course, but in this particular case Trump blurted the truth.

How do you know this?

 

[ZiprHead]

Still no comments on EU cancelling people for having an opinion different from allowed by unelected fuhrers of EU.

Probably because no one has any idea about WTF you are talking about. Do you expect us to just guess?

 

[TV and credit cards]

What we do have right now is the possibility of the US physically backing Ukraine, of Trump holding Putin's feet to the fire. This is how I read Zelensky's comments. And this agreement would be with Trump. Would a successive administration continue to do so? I think this side of a President JD Vance, yes. Any Democrat or moderately sane Republican would continue to do so. And if Trump doesn't make it through the next three years, Vance will not have the juice in congress to unwind any agreement Trump might come to with Ukraine. Congress will kick back. There are still many old school GOPers who still know what Russia is all about and would execute a strong and vigorous defense of Ukraine, more so than timid Biden did.
If Trump does send a message, it will be unambiguous. Hopefully a MOAB or the like on that goddamn bridge.

But everyone knows Trump keeps changing his mind. Both Trump and Zelenskyy has learned that if they won't get what they want from Trump they can just stall until they do.

He may already have. Putin complained that Ukraine tried to attack his house. Trump likely swallowed it whole.
What do we know about Russian accusations that Ukraine attacked Putin residence?

 

[barbos]

Still no comments on EU cancelling people for having an opinion different from allowed by unelected fuhrers of EU.

Probably because no one has any idea about WTF you are talking about. Do you expect us to just guess?

Then you need to see a doctor, cause I DID gave a link.

 

[bilby]

Still no comments on EU cancelling people for having an opinion different from allowed by unelected fuhrers of EU.

Probably because no one has any idea about WTF you are talking about. Do you expect us to just guess?

Or care?

At this point, we all assume that any links from barbos about anything are links to bullshit propaganda nonsense; The details are of zero interest, it will just be more of the same. Nobody's going to bother to click.

I wonder if Russian kids get told the story of the boy who cried "Wolf!".

 

[laughing dog]

I wonder if Russian kids get told the story of the boy who cried "Wolf!".

Well, they get to listen to it set to music -  Peter_and_the_Wolf.

Course, the moral is a bit different.

 

[ZiprHead]

I wonder if Russian kids get told the story of the boy who cried "Wolf!".

Well, they get to listen to it set to music -  Peter_and_the_Wolf.

Course, the moral is a bit different.

Not to mention Putin is the king of cancellations. Can't get more cancelled than by being thrown through a window of a tall building.

 

[ZiprHead]

---

More on 4th Reich

EU sanctions Westerners spreading Russian propaganda: Who are they?

One American and two Europeans have gained legitimacy spreading propaganda off the back of their former careers in Western police forces, military or intelligence. #TheCube

www.euronews.com

A former sheriff from Florida, a member of the French military and a Swiss intelligence officer were among 12 individuals sanctioned by the European Union on 15 December.

The measures initiated by France also led a host of Russian nationals to be sanctioned, in light of Russia's continued hybrid warfare targeting the EU's member states and its partners.

The three Westerners have used their former careers in Western police forces, military or intelligence to gain credibility, according to experts.

"Their past careers in intelligence and the military conjure up ideas of secrecy, as well as the notion of the 'deep state' for the public," Hervé Letoqueux, CEO at Check First, a company which monitors disinformation, told Euronews' fact-checking team, The Cube.

Xavier Moreau is a French-born former military officer and businessman, described as a disseminator of "Kremlin propaganda" in Europe by France's Minister of Foreign Affairs Jean-Noël Barrot.

Moreau, who acquired Russian citizenship in 2013, has lived in Russia since 2000.

He has spread a host of disproven pro-Kremlin narratives, for instance, claiming that Moscow's invasion of Ukraine was orchestrated by NATO, and that Kyiv was responsible for shooting down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 in 2014.

Jacques Baud is the second Swiss national to be hit with sanctions related to Russian propaganda activities in recent months, after Swiss-Cameroonian influencer Nathalie Yamb was banned from entering the EU in April.

Baud, a former Swiss army colonel and strategic analyst, regularly makes appearances on pro-Russian television and radio programmes, suggesting, for example, that Ukraine had orchestrated its own invasion, as part of a plan to gain NATO membership.

"The sanctioned individuals, in a way, share a fascination with authoritarian power. Jacques Baud, for example, displayed sympathies for Bashar al-Assad, denying the abuses committed by his regime," said Letoqueux.

John Mark Dougan, a US citizen who worked as a former deputy sheriff in Florida and fled to Moscow in 2016, is also among those sanctioned.

Dougan has played a key role in pushing pro-Kremlin disinformation campaigns across Europe, supporting the activities of Storm-1516, a Russian propagandist operation which aims to discredit the West and Ukraine.

He has also been pushing the CopyCop network of fake news websites: online outlets which mimic the work of legitimate news organisations through videos and stories, with many produced using AI.

---

According to the EU, reports from Western authorities, as well as investigative reporting has tied Dougan to Russia’s military agency, as well as the Center Geopolitical Expertise, a Moscow-based think tank, which has been linked to information and manipulation operations targeting the West and Ukraine.

 

[barbos]

Still no comments on EU cancelling people for having an opinion different from allowed by unelected fuhrers of EU.

Probably because no one has any idea about WTF you are talking about. Do you expect us to just guess?

Or care?

At this point, we all assume that any links from barbos about anything are links to bullshit propaganda nonsense; The details are of zero interest, it will just be more of the same. Nobody's going to bother to click.

Riiiiight, you are all busy taking fantastic word salads about millions of russian soldiers being encircled in Ukraine from AI copy of Rachel Maddow as gospel of truth. Right?

I wonder if Russian kids get told the story of the boy who cried "Wolf!".

The Irony meter is dying laughing.

 

[barbos]

---

More on 4th Reich

EU sanctions Westerners spreading Russian propaganda: Who are they?

One American and two Europeans have gained legitimacy spreading propaganda off the back of their former careers in Western police forces, military or intelligence. #TheCube

www.euronews.com

A former sheriff from Florida, a member of the French military and a Swiss intelligence officer were among 12 individuals sanctioned by the European Union on 15 December.

The measures initiated by France also led a host of Russian nationals to be sanctioned, in light of Russia's continued hybrid warfare targeting the EU's member states and its partners.

The three Westerners have used their former careers in Western police forces, military or intelligence to gain credibility, according to experts.

"Their past careers in intelligence and the military conjure up ideas of secrecy, as well as the notion of the 'deep state' for the public," Hervé Letoqueux, CEO at Check First, a company which monitors disinformation, told Euronews' fact-checking team, The Cube.

Xavier Moreau is a French-born former military officer and businessman, described as a disseminator of "Kremlin propaganda" in Europe by France's Minister of Foreign Affairs Jean-Noël Barrot.

Moreau, who acquired Russian citizenship in 2013, has lived in Russia since 2000.

He has spread a host of disproven pro-Kremlin narratives, for instance, claiming that Moscow's invasion of Ukraine was orchestrated by NATO, and that Kyiv was responsible for shooting down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 in 2014.

Jacques Baud is the second Swiss national to be hit with sanctions related to Russian propaganda activities in recent months, after Swiss-Cameroonian influencer Nathalie Yamb was banned from entering the EU in April.

Baud, a former Swiss army colonel and strategic analyst, regularly makes appearances on pro-Russian television and radio programmes, suggesting, for example, that Ukraine had orchestrated its own invasion, as part of a plan to gain NATO membership.

"The sanctioned individuals, in a way, share a fascination with authoritarian power. Jacques Baud, for example, displayed sympathies for Bashar al-Assad, denying the abuses committed by his regime," said Letoqueux.

John Mark Dougan, a US citizen who worked as a former deputy sheriff in Florida and fled to Moscow in 2016, is also among those sanctioned.

Dougan has played a key role in pushing pro-Kremlin disinformation campaigns across Europe, supporting the activities of Storm-1516, a Russian propagandist operation which aims to discredit the West and Ukraine.

He has also been pushing the CopyCop network of fake news websites: online outlets which mimic the work of legitimate news organisations through videos and stories, with many produced using AI.

---

According to the EU, reports from Western authorities, as well as investigative reporting has tied Dougan to Russia’s military agency, as well as the Center Geopolitical Expertise, a Moscow-based think tank, which has been linked to information and manipulation operations targeting the West and Ukraine.

Yep, anything to say to all of that?
I remind you, that EU Gestapo actually explained specifically reasons for banning Jacques Baud.
Which was spreading "conspiracy" theories about Russian "invasion" when all he did was quoting Ukrainian (!!!) officials.
Kinda makes you think that EU Reich protests too much, must be some truth to these "conspiracy" theories.
And we know that it is not a conspiracy theory when even Georgians (not fans of Russia) say themselves "yeah, same happened to us"

 

[bilby]

Still no comments on EU cancelling people for having an opinion different from allowed by unelected fuhrers of EU.

Probably because no one has any idea about WTF you are talking about. Do you expect us to just guess?

Or care?

At this point, we all assume that any links from barbos about anything are links to bullshit propaganda nonsense; The details are of zero interest, it will just be more of the same. Nobody's going to bother to click.

Riiiiight, you are all busy taking fantastic word salads about millions of russian soldiers being encircled in Ukraine from AI copy of Rachel Maddow as gospel of truth. Right?

Not me; I have never heard or read a word from (or purporting to be from) Rachel Maddow. I only know who she is because she gets mentioned occasionally on iidb.

I am not taking anything as "gospel of truth". What I am (very reasonably) doing is pointing out that: "we all assume that any links from barbos about anything are links to bullshit propaganda nonsense; The details are of zero interest, it will just be more of the same. Nobody's going to bother to click.".

You can't fix that by whataboutism; In fact, it's likely too late to fix it at all.

There are a lot of influences on my opinion; Maddow is not one, and nor are you.

 

[barbos]

I am not taking anything as "gospel of truth". What I am (very reasonably) doing is pointing out that: "we all assume that any links from barbos about anything are links to bullshit propaganda nonsense

Ziprhead posted utter garbage and you say ..... my posts are nonsense.
What does it say about your posts? Your posts are utter garbage.

 

[bilby]

I am not taking anything as "gospel of truth". What I am (very reasonably) doing is pointing out that: "we all assume that any links from barbos about anything are links to bullshit propaganda nonsense

Ziprhead posted utter garbage and you say ..... my posts are nonsense.

Well, they are. And nothing Ziprhead posts will change that fact in any way.

What does it say about your posts?

Exactly nothing.

Your posts are utter garbage.

Your opinion remains valueless to me.

 

[barbos]

Still no comments on EU cancelling people for having an opinion different from allowed by unelected fuhrers of EU.
Meanwhile Great Victory of Kiev Regime, they managed to dismantle another monument, this time to Russian composer Chaikovky. Before that they got rid of Bulgakov.

 

[barbos]

Dose of Reality for the usual suspects here:

 

[barbos]

Interesting discussion of legal aspects of EU witch hunt
(Not AI garbage you nazi supporers like to post)

 

[TV and credit cards]

Murderous Russian thugs target and kill more civilians.

President Trump's response:



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[DrZoidberg]

Murderous Russian thugs target and kill more civilians.

President Trump's response:



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Trump has always been on team Russia. I think what Trump thinks is his biggest failure is that he's not USA's dictator. He's clearly no friend of democracy

God damn Trump is a horrendous president

 

[barbos]

Murderous NATO thugs target and kill more civilians.

President Trump's response:



(this page intentionally left blank)

Fixed for you