How should west respond to Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[steve_bank]

Of course Putin has 'reasons' to invade Unitarian. We have debated all of them here and debunked all of the. Pure propaganda

Russia singed an agreement to guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for giving up its nuclear weapons.

There is good reason to interfere in the Md East, the problem as Trump is finding out is it not just a matter of military superiority.

Iran is a regional threat not just a threat to Israel, as I posted. Did you read and comprehend? Are you aware of Yemen and Iran backed Houthi? They have been attack shipping for decades, pirates.

Iran with a nuclear weapon is a threat to the global economy, oil as we see right now.


Before this conflict Iran had periodically attacked Arab oil infrastructure, a global economic threat. Iran wants to control the region. The Suni/Shia split. I believe the death penalty still exists in Iran and Saudi Arabia for switching sides, apostasy.

The problem is the complexity and Trump's ignorance and his incompetence. He is not up to the task.

India's economic health depends on free trade and free navigation above and on the oceans. Good luck if you think Russia and China will guarantee that for India,

 

[aupmanyav]

Russia singed an agreement to guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for giving up its nuclear weapons.

Are you aware of Yemen and Iran backed Houthi? They have been attack shipping for decades, pirates.

Iran with a nuclear weapon is a threat to the global economy, oil as we see right now.

Before this conflict Iran had periodically attacked Arab oil infrastructure, a global economic threat. Iran wants to control the region.

The problem is the complexity and Trump's ignorance and his incompetence. He is not up to the task.

India's economic health depends on free trade and free navigation above and on the oceans. Good luck if you think Russia and China will guarantee that for India,

Agreement to guarantee sovereignty becomes invalid if the neighbor does something specially harmful to the other country.

Yamen and houthi is a local interreligious problem that has been exacerbated.
"The Houthis accused Saudi Arabia of pressuring Saleh to crack down on their community, and of funding him with 25 billion USD." - Wikipedia
"As a result of the Saudi-led intervention in Yemen, the Houthis shelled the Saudi city of Najran on 5 May 2015." - Wikipedia
Nobody has bathed in milk. If someone acts against one party, reaction comes.

With Israel probably having 200 nuclear warheads, and Trump, Europe as friends, even if Iran gets one or two nuclear bombs, they are useless.
Oil/Gas have become a problem because Trump wants to control it. Illegal action against Venezuela and sanctions against Russia for what was started by CIA.

Tanker War (Wikipedia): "In 1981, Iraq began attacking commercial shipping to undermine Iran's war effort. .. Iran retaliated by attacking vessels of Iraq's trading partners and countries that provided financial support to Iraq. .. In 1984, Iraq broadened the tanker war by attacking the oil terminal and oil tankers at Kharg Island. Iraq's aim in attacking Iranian shipping was to provoke the Iranians to retaliate with extreme measures, such as closing the Strait of Hormuz to all maritime traffic, thereby bringing about foreign intervention against Iran.
In response, Iran began attacking tankers traveling to and from Kuwait and other Gulf Arab states that supported Iraq’s war effort.
Kuwait and Saudi Arabia supported Iraq against Iran.
In January 1987, the Kuwaiti government proposed a clever scheme to deter Iranian attacks against their shipping. They asked the United States if they could reflag Kuwaiti tankers as American and receive the protection of the U.S. Navy. The administration of President Ronald Reagan debated this idea but finally agreed to it on March 7, 1987. On 17 May 1987, 37 US sailors were killed in an Iraqi aircraft attack on the USS Stark. Iraqi president Saddam Hussein apologized, saying that the pilot had mistaken the US vessel for an Iranian tanker."
Try to abandon your prejudices in debate. Go by facts.

We do not seek any guarantee. All countries depend on trade, navigation. If problems arise, Modi will find a solution till he is around, otherwise his successor will.
(I am sure, he has already considered this).

 

[steve_bank]

The idea that Ukraine at any time was any kind of a threat to Russia is laughable.

The 'threatt' was aligning economically with the EU instead of the Russian Federation.And kicking out a Russian puppet.Putin would not allow it.

Of course Crimea was on the verge of invading Russia when Russo took it over ... Look at relative size of Ukraine and Russia on a map.

It is obvious Modi is sucking up to Putin.

During the Cold War India played both sides and is doing the same today.

The Soviets collapsed based in part on unsustainable military spending and. It appearss the same is happening today.

The catastrophic invasion of Ukraine shed Putin and the Russian mi tray to be inept.

In the news Russia is recruiter in South America with false promises. Offers of jobs like security and they end up at the front.

Heard this in recent reporting.

AI Overview
Russia is actively expanding its military and industrial recruitment networks in South America, notably in countries like Colombia, Peru, and Bolivia. Moscow is targeting economically vulnerable individuals with deceptive promises of lucrative salaries, citizenship, and secure non-combat jobs, though recruits are frequently funneled into the frontlines in Ukraine.

AI Overview
When Russia launched its full-scale invasion on February 24, 2022, Ukraine had an active-duty military of approximately 196,000 to 200,000 personnel. This force was also backed by an estimated 900,000 reservists.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Russia singed an agreement to guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for giving up its nuclear weapons.

Are you aware of Yemen and Iran backed Houthi? They have been attack shipping for decades, pirates.

Iran with a nuclear weapon is a threat to the global economy, oil as we see right now.

Before this conflict Iran had periodically attacked Arab oil infrastructure, a global economic threat. Iran wants to control the region.

The problem is the complexity and Trump's ignorance and his incompetence. He is not up to the task.

India's economic health depends on free trade and free navigation above and on the oceans. Good luck if you think Russia and China will guarantee that for India,

Agreement to guarantee sovereignty becomes invalid if the neighbor does something specially harmful to the other country.

Yamen and houthi is a local interreligious problem that has been exacerbated.
"The Houthis accused Saudi Arabia of pressuring Saleh to crack down on their community, and of funding him with 25 billion USD." - Wikipedia
"As a result of the Saudi-led intervention in Yemen, the Houthis shelled the Saudi city of Najran on 5 May 2015." - Wikipedia
Nobody has bathed in milk. If someone acts against one party, reaction comes.

With Israel probably having 200 nuclear warheads, and Trump, Europe as friends, even if Iran gets one or two nuclear bombs, they are useless.
Oil/Gas have become a problem because Trump wants to control it. Illegal action against Venezuela and sanctions against Russia for what was started by CIA.

Tanker War (Wikipedia): "In 1981, Iraq began attacking commercial shipping to undermine Iran's war effort. .. Iran retaliated by attacking vessels of Iraq's trading partners and countries that provided financial support to Iraq. .. In 1984, Iraq broadened the tanker war by attacking the oil terminal and oil tankers at Kharg Island. Iraq's aim in attacking Iranian shipping was to provoke the Iranians to retaliate with extreme measures, such as closing the Strait of Hormuz to all maritime traffic, thereby bringing about foreign intervention against Iran.
In response, Iran began attacking tankers traveling to and from Kuwait and other Gulf Arab states that supported Iraq’s war effort.
Kuwait and Saudi Arabia supported Iraq against Iran.
In January 1987, the Kuwaiti government proposed a clever scheme to deter Iranian attacks against their shipping. They asked the United States if they could reflag Kuwaiti tankers as American and receive the protection of the U.S. Navy. The administration of President Ronald Reagan debated this idea but finally agreed to it on March 7, 1987. On 17 May 1987, 37 US sailors were killed in an Iraqi aircraft attack on the USS Stark. Iraqi president Saddam Hussein apologized, saying that the pilot had mistaken the US vessel for an Iranian tanker."
Try to abandon your prejudices in debate. Go by facts.

We do not seek any guarantee. All countries depend on trade, navigation. If problems arise, Modi will find a solution till he is around, otherwise his successor will.
(I am sure, he has already considered this).

Do you really think that if Ukraine agreed to de-arm, layoff their soldiers and give up aspirations to join the EU that Russia would leave them alone??

 

[steve_bank]

If Aup wants to make excuses for the brutal oppressive dictator Putin, that is his privilege.

No free speech or press, state controlled media, arrests of those who protest the war and Putin.

Putin wants to feel he is at the head of the Soviet Union which was never really powerful to begin with.

Ukraine is similar to Georgia. How dare a former So9vet client state declare independence from Russia!

Georgia was getitng corruption under control and bringing in foreign investment. Its economy was growing. Putyin could not tolerate that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

The August 2008 Russo-Georgian War, also known as the Russian invasion of Georgia,[38][note 3] was a war waged against Georgia by the Russian Federation and the Russian-backed separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The fighting took place in the strategically important South Caucasus region. It is regarded as the first European war of the 21st century.[39]

Following the 1991 Georgian independence referendum, the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic declared independence as a sovereign state amidst the dissolution of the Soviet Union. A year later, the South Ossetia war and the Abkhazia war resulted in Georgia's partial loss of territory in what had been the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and the Abkhaz Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, respectively, to two internationally unrecognized separatist movements that were supported by the newly independent Russian Federation. A series of ceasefire agreements brokered by Russia in 1992, 1993, and 1994 resulted in the establishment of the "Joint Control Commission" in South Ossetia, but Georgians were ethnically cleansed from Abkhazia by 1998. In 2000, Vladimir Putin became Russia's president, while Georgia experienced the Rose Revolution in 2003 and moved towards forging closer ties with the United States and NATO. Consequently, Georgia–Russia relations deteriorated rapidly by 2006 and spiralled into a diplomatic crisis by 2008.

Russi9a gets aggrieve and sattes move to NATO and the EU.

Putin threatened formerly neutral Finland and Sweden if they honed NATO.which they did. A response to Russia;'s atack on Ukraine.

Putin claims NATO is an existential threat to Russia, yet it is his anctionss and the rats that has expanded and strengthen NATO.

Putin is running the old Soviet Stalinist playbook

 

[aupmanyav]

The idea that Ukraine at any time was any kind of a threat to Russia is laughable.

The 'threatt' was aligning economically with the EU instead of the Russian Federation.And kicking out a Russian puppet.Putin would not allow it.

Of course Crimea was on the verge of invading Russia when Russo took it over ... Look at relative size of Ukraine and Russia on a map.

It is obvious Modi is sucking up to Putin.

During the Cold War India played both sides and is doing the same today.

The Soviets collapsed based in part on unsustainable military spending and. It appearss the same is happening today.

In the news Russia is recruiter in South America with false promises. Offers of jobs like security and they end up at the front.

Where does Ukraine count? CIA lighted the fuse and helps to prolong the war.
Yeah, Russia did not want Ukraine to join the Western block.
How does size matter? Look at Israel. US and EU help Ukraine. It is a proxy war.
Modi goes his own way whatever you may think of him. Yeah, we are a non-aligned nation, we do not have masters.
USSR collapsed because of Gorbachev's weakness. Putin is not Gorbachev.
Yeah, Russia is doing that. A few Indians have died in this war, but their numbers have been around a score or two. India has asked Russia not to employ Indians in the war. Israel also has done that to get fodder for war. They even say that the Pashtuns have a Jewish origin. (Wikipedia)

"The Bnei Menashe (Children of Menasseh), known as the Shinlung in India is a community of Indian Jews from various Tibeto-Burman speaking ethnic groups from the border of India, Bangladesh and Myanmar who claim descent from one of the Ten Lost Tribes.
The movement began in 1951, when a tribal leader reported having a dream that his people's ancient homeland was Israel; some tribal members began embracing the idea that they were Jews. Before the movement's start, the community was largely a Christian one.  Members are from the Chin, Kuki, and Mizo ethnic groups, amongst others."

 

[aupmanyav]

Do you really think that if Ukraine agreed to de-arm, layoff their soldiers and give up aspirations to join the EU that Russia would leave them alone??

Where have I said that? Aspirations need to be limited to possibilities.
We want to give independent nation status to Taiwan, but conditions do not permit it. It would seriously annoy China.

 

[aupmanyav]

If Aup wants to make excuses for the brutal oppressive dictator Putin, that is his privilege.
No free speech or press, state controlled media, arrests of those who protest the war and Putin.

Putin wants to feel he is at the head of the Soviet Union which was never really powerful to begin with.
Ukraine is similar to Georgia. How dare a former So9vet client state declare independence from Russia!
Georgia was getitng corruption under control and bringing in foreign investment. Its economy was growing. Putyin could not tolerate that.

I do not make any excuses for Russia. I only explain my view of why and how it happened.
What happens in Russia is their concern. We do not comment of internal affairs of other countries.
Who would not like to be powerful or loose his power? Look at Trump.
Yeah, Russia (Putin) has its own geo-political view.

 

[Patooka]

Where does Ukraine count? CIA lighted the fuse and helps to prolong the war.

Never, not once, have either you, barbos or even Putin provided a shred of evidence towards this. And if you believe Ukraine doesn't "count", then your previous statement;

Agreement to guarantee sovereignty becomes invalid if the neighbor does something specially harmful to the other country.

...is complete bullshit.

 

[aupmanyav]

Russia gets aggressive and sattes move to NATO and the EU.

Putin threatened formerly neutral Finland and Sweden if they honed NATO.which they did. A response to Russia;'s attack on Ukraine.

Putin claims NATO is an existential threat to Russia, yet it is his actions and the rats that has expanded and strengthen NATO.

Putin is running the old Soviet Stalinist playbook

Yeah, Putin is against NATO and US, not against EU as I see it.
Yes, he did.
It is his view. US enticed countries because of its economic strength. China too is doing that.
Yeah, he is.

 

[aupmanyav]

Never, not once, have either you, barbos or even Putin provided a shred of evidence towards this. And if you believe Ukraine doesn't "count", then your previous statement .................. .. is complete bullshit.

I am responsible for what I say. Barbos is responsible for what he says. We are not in a league.
I am non-aligned, Barbos is not.
Ask KGB. I am sure it has all the details.
.. that is your view. My view is different.

 

[Patooka]

Never, not once, have either you, barbos or even Putin provided a shred of evidence towards this. And if you believe Ukraine doesn't "count", then your previous statement .................. .. is complete bullshit.

I am responsible for what I say. Barbos is responsible for what he says. We are not in a league.
Ask KGB. I am sure it has all the details.
.. that is your view. My view is different.

My view is based on facts and reality. Your credibility is nonexistent if your "belief" is Russia was provoked and then refuse to back that up with any facts.

 

[aupmanyav]

Your credibility is nonexistent if your "belief" is Russia was provoked and then refuse to back that up with any facts.

It is OK if you do not believe me. I stated my views.

 

[barbos]

Heard this in recent reporting.

Wow, AI is trully stupid.

 

[barbos]

Have been watching interview of Julia Latynina by Panchenko.
Panchenko said that the reason for deleting her channel was her video about Elensky attempts to build (comedy) career in Moscow. That's pretty revealing.
Not the fact that Elensky loved Russia and Moscow so mush but the fact that he wants to hide it so much.

 

[Patooka]

Your credibility is nonexistent if your "belief" is Russia was provoked and then refuse to back that up with any facts.

It is OK if you do not believe me. I stated my views.

So you can't back up your arguments. No real surprise. Do you believe unicorns are real too?

 

[barbos]

Russia singed an agreement to guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for giving up its nuclear weapons.

Are you aware of Yemen and Iran backed Houthi? They have been attack shipping for decades, pirates.

Iran with a nuclear weapon is a threat to the global economy, oil as we see right now.

Before this conflict Iran had periodically attacked Arab oil infrastructure, a global economic threat. Iran wants to control the region.

The problem is the complexity and Trump's ignorance and his incompetence. He is not up to the task.

India's economic health depends on free trade and free navigation above and on the oceans. Good luck if you think Russia and China will guarantee that for India,

Agreement to guarantee sovereignty becomes invalid if the neighbor does something specially harmful to the other country.

Yamen and houthi is a local interreligious problem that has been exacerbated.
"The Houthis accused Saudi Arabia of pressuring Saleh to crack down on their community, and of funding him with 25 billion USD." - Wikipedia
"As a result of the Saudi-led intervention in Yemen, the Houthis shelled the Saudi city of Najran on 5 May 2015." - Wikipedia
Nobody has bathed in milk. If someone acts against one party, reaction comes.

With Israel probably having 200 nuclear warheads, and Trump, Europe as friends, even if Iran gets one or two nuclear bombs, they are useless.
Oil/Gas have become a problem because Trump wants to control it. Illegal action against Venezuela and sanctions against Russia for what was started by CIA.

Tanker War (Wikipedia): "In 1981, Iraq began attacking commercial shipping to undermine Iran's war effort. .. Iran retaliated by attacking vessels of Iraq's trading partners and countries that provided financial support to Iraq. .. In 1984, Iraq broadened the tanker war by attacking the oil terminal and oil tankers at Kharg Island. Iraq's aim in attacking Iranian shipping was to provoke the Iranians to retaliate with extreme measures, such as closing the Strait of Hormuz to all maritime traffic, thereby bringing about foreign intervention against Iran.
In response, Iran began attacking tankers traveling to and from Kuwait and other Gulf Arab states that supported Iraq’s war effort.
Kuwait and Saudi Arabia supported Iraq against Iran.
In January 1987, the Kuwaiti government proposed a clever scheme to deter Iranian attacks against their shipping. They asked the United States if they could reflag Kuwaiti tankers as American and receive the protection of the U.S. Navy. The administration of President Ronald Reagan debated this idea but finally agreed to it on March 7, 1987. On 17 May 1987, 37 US sailors were killed in an Iraqi aircraft attack on the USS Stark. Iraqi president Saddam Hussein apologized, saying that the pilot had mistaken the US vessel for an Iranian tanker."
Try to abandon your prejudices in debate. Go by facts.

We do not seek any guarantee. All countries depend on trade, navigation. If problems arise, Modi will find a solution till he is around, otherwise his successor will.
(I am sure, he has already considered this).

Do you really think that if Ukraine agreed to de-arm, layoff their soldiers and give up aspirations to join the EU that Russia would leave them alone??

You do understand that for the most of their 35 year long history Ukraine had been left alone (by Russia) and un-armed?

 

[barbos]

Your credibility is nonexistent if your "belief" is Russia was provoked and then refuse to back that up with any facts.

It is OK if you do not believe me. I stated my views.

So you can't back up your arguments. No real surprise. Do you believe unicorns are real too?

And do you think Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela wars were justified?

 

[Tigers!]

Do you really think that if Ukraine agreed to de-arm, layoff their soldiers and give up aspirations to join the EU that Russia would leave them alone??

You do understand that for the most of their 35 year long history Ukraine had been left alone (by Russia everybody) and un-armed?

FIFY

Why should Russia get credit for doing what everyone else was doing?

 

[barbos]

Do you really think that if Ukraine agreed to de-arm, layoff their soldiers and give up aspirations to join the EU that Russia would leave them alone??

You do understand that for the most of their 35 year long history Ukraine had been left alone (by Russia everybody Russia) and un-armed?

FIFY

Why should Russia get credit for doing what everyone else was doing?

Nuland (and Brzezinski) never left Ukraine alone. She said it herself.