How society protects predators and silences women and girls

[Angry Floof]

In patriarchy, no one can hear you scream

Maybe one of the reasons rape has so often been portrayed as “a stranger leaps out of the bushes” is so we’ll imagine rapists acting alone. But in so many cases rapists have help in the moment and forever after, and the help is often so powerful, broad, and deep—well, that’s why we call it rape culture, and that’s why changing it means changing the whole culture. Sometimes it’s the family, community, church, campus looking the other way; sometimes it’s the criminal justice system. If Jeffrey Epstein goes to jail for the new round of indictments—which only came about because one investigative journalist, Julie K. Brown of the Miami Herald, did an extraordinary job of digging up what had been buried in his case—a host of people who knew, laughed, looked the other way, allegedly helped him sexually abuse children for years will still be at large, and the circumstances that allow other Epsteins to attack other children will still exist.

 

[TSwizzle]

Link is broken.

Maybe one of the reasons rape has so often been portrayed as “a stranger leaps out of the bushes” is so we’ll imagine rapists acting alone.

What is this about ? Where about is rape portrayed this way ? Movies perhaps ?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

In the Trump rape thread, I tried to find what I thought would be a simple matter: what percentage of men commit sexual assault. I fully expected it to be a general estimate, but at least something somewhat ubiquitous. Google it. You won't find an answer. All that comes up is percentages of rapes where men are the victims and percentages of rapists in college.

 

[Toni]

Link is broken.

Maybe one of the reasons rape has so often been portrayed as “a stranger leaps out of the bushes” is so we’ll imagine rapists acting alone.

What is this about ? Where about is rape portrayed this way ? Movies perhaps ?

Or dark alleys. Most rapes are not committed by strangers but by family members, intimate partners, acquaintances.

Read any thread about rape on this forum and you will find it full of men insisting that it wasn’t really rape. Unless the accused is a black man and the victim is white. Then it’s much more likely to be considered rape. We have at least one member who will drag up some obscure case of a false or not proven case of rape, and multiple members who conflate false with unproven claims. Also splitting hairs about the cutoff for pedophila, and some who seem to believe if a girl has breasts, she’s ready for sex.

 

[TSwizzle]

Link is broken.

Maybe one of the reasons rape has so often been portrayed as “a stranger leaps out of the bushes” is so we’ll imagine rapists acting alone.

What is this about ? Where about is rape portrayed this way ? Movies perhaps ?

Most rapes are not committed by strangers but by family members, intimate partners, acquaintances.

I think most people know this.

 

[Angry Floof]

Link is broken.

Maybe one of the reasons rape has so often been portrayed as “a stranger leaps out of the bushes” is so we’ll imagine rapists acting alone.

What is this about ? Where about is rape portrayed this way ? Movies perhaps ?

Or dark alleys. Most rapes are not committed by strangers but by family members, intimate partners, acquaintances.

Read any thread about rape on this forum and you will find it full of men insisting that it wasn’t really rape. Unless the accused is a black man and the victim is white. Then it’s much more likely to be considered rape. We have at least one member who will drag up some obscure case of a false or not proven case of rape, and multiple members who conflate false with unproven claims. Also splitting hairs about the cutoff for pedophila, and some who seem to believe if a girl has breasts, she’s ready for sex.

The point made in the article was that rape is culturally portrayed (or misportrayed) as a stranger jumping out of the bushes when in fact, rapists are often not strangers, but even more importantly to the point, rapists are helped and supported and protected by society as victims are dismissed, shamed, and demonized. The stranger jumping out of the bushes is a fairy tale that is comforting to men because it makes it easier for them to distance themselves from what they contribute to society and culture, whether they themselves are rapists or just men who look the other way.

 

[Metaphor]

Even if "a host" of people looked the other way, how does that imply we have a "rape culture"?

How many people do you think condone child rape? Do you have any idea where in the pecking order pedophile prisoners are? (HINT: you are better off in the literal torture of isolation).

If my nieces or nephews were being fiddled with, I wouldn't look the other way. Even if 20% of people do, that doesn't mean we live in a "pedophile" culture. Oy gevalt.

 

[Toni]

Even if "a host" of people looked the other way, how does that imply we have a "rape culture"?

How many people do you think condone child rape? Do you have any idea where in the pecking order pedophile prisoners are? (HINT: you are better off in the literal torture of isolation).

If my nieces or nephews were being fiddled with, I wouldn't look the other way. Even if 20% of people do, that doesn't mean we live in a "pedophile" culture. Oy gevalt.

Look at the resistance to recognizing and rectifying the sexual abuse of children by priests. The resistance isn't completely from Church authorities. Look at how long Sandusky was protected and how many people STILL believe that those men came forward looking for money and that nothing happened. A lot of people looked away and enabled him. Michael Jackson. Bill Cosby. Donald Trump. Bill Clinton.

I think that a lot of it has to do with people not wanting to believe that other people can do something so terrible. Look at the Holocaust deniers--or at the Holocaust itself.

It's worse when the perpetrator is someone who is respected, admired. In a position of authority. We want to trust the people we admire. We need to trust the people we admire.

We let people we admire because of their talent, their power, their wealth, their relationship to us get away with despicable behavior because it is on some levels beyond our ability to believe that someone that we admire and respect for (insert attributes) could also be a sick, terrible human being who hurts others.

 

[Metaphor]

I think that a lot of it has to do with people not wanting to believe that other people can do something so terrible.

I would call that an antirape culture. I mean, the people who had good evidence but didn't believe are delusional, but if they doubt and cover up because rape is too horrid to think about, in what universe is that a (pro)rape culture?

We let people we admire because of their talent, their power, their wealth, their relationship to us get away with despicable behavior because it is on some levels beyond our ability to believe that someone that we admire and respect for (insert attributes) could also be a sick, terrible human being who hurts others.

That doesn't describe a 'rape' culture to me. That describes, perhaps, an 'internalised authoritarian' culture, maybe.

But, we live in a universe where NOW gave Emma Sulkowicz a 'Woman of Courage' award for lying about rape and destroying a man's life. Does that sound like something that would happen in a 'rape' culture?

We live in a culture where a significant fraction of the community wishes to reverse the burden of proof on to the accused in rape trials. Is that a 'rape' culture?

We live in a culture where any utterance, by a woman, about a man who has trespassed against her, is to be 'listened and believed'. Does that sound like a 'rape' culture?

We do not live in a rape culture (in the West). There is probably a 'rape' subculture among some groups, just as there are subcultures in every society. When George Pell was accused (but not yet convicted), I did not see a single skeptical post on my social media feeds. The only posts were from people certain that if there was an accusation, there was guilt.

This is not a rape culture.

 

[prideandfall]

That doesn't describe a 'rape' culture to me. That describes, perhaps, an 'internalised authoritarian' culture, maybe.

i don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive - a culture that routinely protects rapists and excuses sexually exploitative behavior because of an internalized authoritarian streak doesn't mean that routinely protecting rapists and excusing sexually exploitative behavior isn't indicative of rape culture.

there doesn't need to be a mustache-twirling undercurrent within the cultural zeitgeist going "mwuhahaha fuck yeah dude let's RAPE SOME BITCHES WOO" for that culture to pervasively and institutionally conduct itself in a way that shelters rapists and socially victimizes women for being raped.

But, we live in a universe where NOW gave Emma Sulkowicz a 'Woman of Courage' award for lying about rape and destroying a man's life. Does that sound like something that would happen in a 'rape' culture?

yes, absolutely it does, for the same reason that putting on assless leather chaps and a giant strap-on dildo and waggling it at people on the street sounds like something that would happen at a gay pride parade - because when a group of people are subjected to oppression or mistreated in a specific way for long enough without redress, they kinda flip the fuck out a bit and rebel against the norms that are built of the society oppressing them.

so yeah, in a society where rapists are regularly protected and women are regularly denigrated, an organization dedicated to women and the advancement of their place in society is going to give an award to someone who stridently advocated for victims of rape speaking out and pursuing justice.

We live in a culture where a significant fraction of the community wishes to reverse the burden of proof on to the accused in rape trials. Is that a 'rape' culture?

well that's just a completely baseless and utterly bullshit pronouncement from out of the dark end of your ass, so there's nothing to say to that.

We live in a culture where any utterance, by a woman, about a man who has trespassed against her, is to be 'listened and believed'. Does that sound like a 'rape' culture?

when those advocating that they be "listened to and believed" are almost exclusively WOMEN who are sick of being raped without any sort of legal or social recourse? yeah, it kinda does sound like they're reacting to a 'rape culture.'

We do not live in a rape culture (in the West). There is probably a 'rape' subculture among some groups, just as there are subcultures in every society. When George Pell was accused (but not yet convicted), I did not see a single skeptical post on my social media feeds. The only posts were from people certain that if there was an accusation, there was guilt.

This is not a rape culture.

in the west we are currently actively aware of no less than 10 distinct and ongoing scenarios wherein men raped women for decades while those around them bent over backwards to protect them, legally and socially.
in the US at least 30 states have required significant citizen activism to get them to even bother tested rape kits, and several states require rape victims to pay for their own testing and other investigative fees.
in the west we are currently actively supporting the largest child rape organization active in the world (the catholic church) and are utterly socially incapable of even uttering the notion that we might want to maybe do something about that.

this may not be gang-raping in the street, but this is definitely a culture that routinely either explicitly advocates or at least tacitly tolerates widespread rape.

 

[Metaphor]

i don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive - a culture that routinely protects rapists

What is your evidence of that?

there doesn't need to be a mustache-twirling undercurrent within the cultural zeitgeist going "mwuhahaha fuck yeah dude let's RAPE SOME BITCHES WOO" for that culture to pervasively and institutionally conduct itself in a way that shelters rapists and socially victimizes women for being raped.

Do you victimise women for being raped? What percentage of people that victimise women for being raped indicates a rape culture?

yes, absolutely it does, for the same reason that putting on assless leather chaps and a giant strap-on dildo and waggling it at people on the street sounds like something that would happen at a gay pride parade - because when a group of people are subjected to oppression or mistreated in a specific way for long enough without redress, they kinda flip the fuck out a bit and rebel against the norms that are built of the society oppressing them.

so yeah, in a society where rapists are regularly protected and women are regularly denigrated, an organization dedicated to women and the advancement of their place in society is going to give an award to someone who stridently advocated for victims of rape speaking out and pursuing justice.

Emma Sulkowicz damaged the cause of rape victims everywhere.

well that's just a completely baseless and utterly bullshit pronouncement from out of the dark end of your ass, so there's nothing to say to that.

It is not. Your response tells me you are not remotely aware of the activism and advocacy for law reform in this area.

when those advocating that they be "listened to and believed" are almost exclusively WOMEN who are sick of being raped without any sort of legal or social recourse? yeah, it kinda does sound like they're reacting to a 'rape culture.'

What on earth would social recourse for a rape look like? Most victims of robbery never get any legal recourse. Do we live in a robbery culture?

in the west we are currently actively aware of no less than 10 distinct and ongoing scenarios wherein men raped women for decades while those around them bent over backwards to protect them, legally and socially.

You mean like in Rotherham, where men who raped girls over decades were allowed to get away with it because the police were terrified of appearing 'racist'?

in the US at least 30 states have required significant citizen activism to get them to even bother tested rape kits, and several states require rape victims to pay for their own testing and other investigative fees.
in the west we are currently actively supporting the largest child rape organization active in the world (the catholic church) and are utterly socially incapable of even uttering the notion that we might want to maybe do something about that.

I don't know what universe you live in. Who is "actively supporting" the Catholic Church, except Catholics?

this may not be gang-raping in the street, but this is definitely a culture that routinely either explicitly advocates or at least tacitly tolerates widespread rape.

The West does not advocate rape. To believe that is to believe something so absurd I don't think dialogue is possible with you.

 

[Angry Floof]

https://time.com/5619918/judge-james-troiano-new-jersey-teen-rape-case/

BY MAHITA GAJANAN
JULY 3, 2019
A New Jersey family court judge has been strongly criticized by the state’s appeals court after he declined prosecutors’ request for a teen accused of raping a visibly intoxicated 16-year-old girl to be tried as an adult.

Judge James Troiano of Superior Court was sharply rebuked by the appeals court not just for his decision in the case, but for the rhetoric he used in his ruling last year. In Troiano’s ruling, which recently became public in the appeals process, he said the teen who is accused of filming his alleged rape and sharing the video with friends was an Eagle Scout who came from a “good family” and was doing “extremely well” at an “excellent school.”

Prosecutors said the 16-year-old boy, identified only as “G.M.C.” in court documents, filmed himself penetrating the girl, also 16, from behind, showing her bare torso and her head hanging down in a darkened room. The teens were at a “pajama-themed party where alcohol was consumed” with about 30 others, according to the appeals court document. G.M.C. was drunk and the victim was “visibly drunk,” slurring her speech and stumbling as she walked. Days after the incident, the boy is alleged to have texted his friends a clip of the encounter as well as the message, “When your first time having sex was rape.”

How weird. Where would he get the idea to rape and video tape it and brag about it to his friends? How weird that the judge would be so lenient to the rapist and utterly callous to the victim. The sausage fest on this board must have been burning with rage and shock.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-told-alleged-rape-victim-close-your-n1028186

How weird that a judge would be so cruel and callous toward a rape victim. The judge, the person with the highest authority in dealing with crimes and protecting victims, just casually writes off the brutality of a human being with a smart ass quip. How strange that this could happen in our non-rape culture. I guess no one here heard of this because you'd surely be outraged and shocked.

A bus driver rapes, a man keeps girl captive and neither are going to prison

Well, this sort of thing just doesn't happen here!

Shane Piche admitted to raping a 14-year-old girl who rode the school bus he drove. Michael Wysolovski admitted to keeping a teenage girl in sexual captivity for more than a year. Last Thursday, two separate judges in two separate states ruled neither would be going to prison.

Brock Turner brutalized a human being and got off scot free. Due to his having a penis, his life and future were determined to be too valuable to hold him accountable. His father referred to the assault as his son just "getting action." What planet did that man and his rapist son come from? This sort of attitude accepting of rape and lacking in empathy for female humans is just unheard of here! You guys must still be reeling from that one.

The news provides a regular drip of such stories. You guys must be feeling quite demoralized by it all.

I can't fathom why, given the overwhelming empathy of men in our society who are routinely shocked and repulsed by such stories, boys would find rape a joke and judges think nothing of minimizing brutality of girls and women. How weird and shockingly unusual.

 

[Metaphor]

Brock Turner brutalized a human being and got off scot free. Due to his having a penis, his life and future were determined to be too valuable to hold him accountable. His father referred to the assault as his son just "getting action." What planet did that man and his rapist son come from?

Brock Turner did not rape anybody and he did not get off scot free. He sexually assaulted somebody and he was punished for it and will remain a registered sex offender for life. His sexual assault was interrupted by a man who chased him down.

The judge who handed down the sentence was recalled because the people determined he was too "lenient".

Literally none of the aftermath of Turner's sexual assault would have happened in any place suitable of being called a "rape culture".

 

[prideandfall]

What is your evidence of that?

i mean, are you asking for a list of names? i'm not sure how to take this, because it's so overwhelmingly obvious and in the news that i'm not sure if you're being facetious with that, or if it's a genuine question that shows you live in a bubble so dense that discourse is going to be complicated.

Do you victimise women for being raped? What percentage of people that victimise women for being raped indicates a rape culture?

i can't conceive of what you think you're trying to imply with the first question. to the second question, what percent of gays have to be lynched for a culture to be considered homophobic?

Emma Sulkowicz damaged the cause of rape victims everywhere.

to you, sure. to other misogynists, sure.

It is not. Your response tells me you are not remotely aware of the activism and advocacy for law reform in this area.

and as usual your ilk's primary scare tactic is to scour the internet for somebody's livejournal post about how men should be raped as punishment for the patriarchy or some such idiocy and then declare it a national emergency that women with scissors are coming to take your penis away, so what the fuck ever.

What on earth would social recourse for a rape look like? Most victims of robbery never get any legal recourse. Do we live in a robbery culture?

if the most common reaction to "i've been robbed" would be to first call the person a liar, and then denigrate them publicly and point out how they shouldn't have kept their valuables in their house if they didn't want to get robbed, and then have heaps of people threaten to rob you, and then make you pay for the cops to fingerprint your door, before finally house-shaming you for thinking you could be out and about with a paint job like that on your exterior, then yes i'd say at that point we live in a robbery culture.

You mean like in Rotherham, where men who raped girls over decades were allowed to get away with it because the police were terrified of appearing 'racist'?

ah, and we come to the part where you're so intensely disingenuous and that discourse is impossible.
not even for the sake of idle internet rage is that level of stupidity worth engaging with.

 

[Metaphor]

i mean, are you asking for a list of names?

I want evidence that a "culture" exists that routinely protects rapists. Individuals are not a culture. I want evidence that this "protection" is so great that it is justifiable to tarnish entire countries with the accusation of being a "rape culture".

what percent of gays have to be lynched for a culture to be considered homophobic?

A culture that forbids homosexuality by force of law, like many Islamic cultures do, is homophobic.

Individuals exist in Australia who dislike homosexuals. Australia does not have a homophobic culture. To imagine it does is the worst kind of oblivious indulgence.

EDIT: On reflection, your question is beyond fucking insulting. Women have never been made illegal just for being women. No women were lynched just for being women.

Australia had what could fairly be described as a homophobic culture in the past. It is no longer homophobic.

Australia does not and never did have a "misogynistic" culture, because at no time was it characterised by more than half the population hating women.

to you, sure. to other misogynists, sure.

To anybody who is not blindly adherent to feminist nonsense or even to feminists who think that false rape accusers damage the credibility and experiences of rape survivors.

I am not a misogynist, though I could easily predict you'd call me one, though you've no evidence whatsoever.

and as usual your ilk's primary scare tactic is to scour the internet for somebody's livejournal post about how men should be raped as punishment for the patriarchy or some such idiocy and then declare it a national emergency that women with scissors are coming to take your penis away, so what the fuck ever.

Your ignorance is astonishing. There are feminists who want accused rapists to prove they had consent. That is a reversal of the widely accepted burden of proof in Western societies. The fact that you don't know about this movement is surprising, because you appear to be well versed in other feminist delusions.

if the most common reaction to "i've been robbed" would be to first call the person a liar,

You are deluded if you think the most common reaction to women claiming rape is "you're lying".

and then denigrate them publicly and point out how they shouldn't have kept their valuables in their house if they didn't want to get robbed,

Gospa moja! Have you ever had your car stolen? I have. The insurance company asked me if the car was unlocked. They asked me if there was an immoboliser or alarm. At no point did that imply they thought I deserved to have my car stolen.

EDIT: It is only feminists and their allies who believe advising women on actions they may be able to take to mitigate their risk of being a victim of crime is "rape culture", "rape apology", "misogyny".

I guess the queer self defence classes on offer when I went to university were evidence that the student union blamed faggots for getting bashed.

ah, and we come to the part where you're so intensely disingenuous and that discourse is impossible.
not even for the sake of idle internet rage is that level of stupidity worth engaging with.

I'm not surprised you bowed out when confronted with counterevidence of your claims.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I think that a lot of it has to do with people not wanting to believe that other people can do something so terrible.

This is a fair point. I also noticed you wrote people instead of just men. Kudos for that.

There is also the presumption of innocence to consider. We SHOULDNT leap to the conclusion that somebody is guilty when they are accused of something. We should question it.

It's worse when the perpetrator is someone who is respected, admired. In a position of authority. We want to trust the people we admire. We need to trust the people we admire.

Plus the powerful have influence both financially and with personal connections to other powerful people.

We let people we admire because of their talent, their power, their wealth, their relationship to us get away with despicable behavior because it is on some levels beyond our ability to believe that someone that we admire and respect for (insert attributes) could also be a sick, terrible human being who hurts others.

Sure. And cultural norms also play a role in all of this. Male rape and abuse victims are not just disbelieved or ignored etc. They are laughed at, be it rape or abuse by other men, or especially if by women (in which case the men are blamed for it and "must have had it coming").

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I want evidence that a "culture" exists that routinely protects rapists. Individuals are not a culture. I want evidence that this "protection" is so great that it is justifiable to tarnish entire countries with the accusation of being a "rape culture"....A culture that forbids homosexuality by force of law, like many Islamic cultures do, is homophobic.

So...the only "evidence" you will accept is whether or not something has been forbidden by force of law?

Individuals exist in Australia who dislike homosexuals. Australia does not have a homophobic culture. To imagine it does is the worst kind of oblivious indulgence.

In your opinion.

Australia had what could fairly be described as a homophobic culture in the past. It is no longer homophobic.

In your opinion. And the "evidence" for this is that it no longer forbids homosexuality by law.

So, to you, "culture" equates only to "existence of a law"?

 

[Metaphor]

So...the only "evidence" you will accept is whether or not something has been forbidden by force of law?

No.

In your opinion.

There are no legal rights available to heterosexuals that are not also available to homosexuals. Australia is not homophobic just because there are individuals who are.

In your opinion. And the "evidence" for this is that it no longer forbids homosexuality by law.

So, to you, "culture" equates only to "existence of a law"?

No. "Pride" month recently took place in Australia, where every corporation in Australia fell over themselves to proclaim gay pride.

A football star was recently excoriated by the public and fired from his job because he posted some nonsense about homosexuals, atheists, idolaters, etc going to hell.

None of these things would happen in a homophobic culture.

 

[Derec]

According to feminists, rape is whatever a woman says it is, even when she is lying, like Crystal Magnum or Jackie Coakley.

 

[Derec]

so yeah, in a society where rapists are regularly protected and women are regularly denigrated, an organization dedicated to women and the advancement of their place in society is going to give an award to someone who stridently advocated for victims of rape speaking out and pursuing justice.

No, they gave the award to someone who lied about getting raped.

well that's just a completely baseless and utterly bullshit pronouncement from out of the dark end of your ass, so there's nothing to say to that.

Rep. Jared Polis Thinks Colleges Should Be Able to Expel Students When They're Only 20% Sure a Rape Happened
Call to shift burden of proof to rape-accused

when those advocating that they be "listened to and believed" are almost exclusively WOMEN who are sick of being raped without any sort of legal or social recourse? yeah, it kinda does sound like they're reacting to a 'rape culture.'

No, they want to be believed without evidence.
That's the biggest problem with rape and feminism. Feminists assume a rape happened without any evidence.