How would you debate this argument

[Bronzeage]

Please explain how this can be. The God of Abraham is the God to which Muslims, Christians, and Jews, direct their prayers. Did someone pull a switch on us?

The Christians worship Jesus. The Muslims and Jews don't. So it's pretty easy to argue that they aren't all worshiping the same person.

It would help if you learned something about Abrahamic Religions before launching into this kind of discussion. It is easy to argue anything, and just as easy to be wrong.

 

[dx713]

Please explain how this can be. The God of Abraham is the God to which Muslims, Christians, and Jews, direct their prayers. Did someone pull a switch on us?

The Christians worship Jesus. The Muslims and Jews don't. So it's pretty easy to argue that they aren't all worshiping the same person.

The Christians worship Jesus as an aspect of god, while the Muslim and Jews think he's just a human prophet amongst others.
But they still worship the same god (they think there's only one anyway), just believe the other are mistaken about what god wants.

Aside : it's always fun to see deluded "culture wars" christians arguing for a "god vs allah" (and sometimes even "god/jehova vs allah vs yaweh") in a "my god is better" way, like polytheists of old, while peddling a religion whose first commandment amounts to "remember there's only one god". Not to mention, as ksen reminded us, that "allah" is just the arab translation of "god", meaning that arabic christians, part of their "own team", pray to "allah". (But do they even know there are arabic christians, or do they think arabic equals muslim?)

 

[untermensche]

If more Christians than Muslims actually acted like Jesus then points about the worship of Jesus would be valid.

But what I see is that it is very easy to worship Jesus and not act like him at all.

 

[Bronzeage]

If more Christians than Muslims actually acted like Jesus then points about the worship of Jesus would be valid.

But what I see is that it is very easy to worship Jesus and not act like him at all.

This is true of any religion and not restricted to Christianity. The world would be nicer if Buddhists acted more like the Buddha and Muslims, more like Mohammed. I don't know how it work out for Hindus, as they could act like either Vishnu or Shiva, as the mood struck them, and still behave in a God-like manner.

On this forum, Christianity is the most familiar religion and as they say, familiarity breeds contempt.

 

[untermensche]

If more Christians than Muslims actually acted like Jesus then points about the worship of Jesus would be valid.

But what I see is that it is very easy to worship Jesus and not act like him at all.

This is true of any religion and not restricted to Christianity. The world would be nicer if Buddhists acted more like the Buddha and Muslims, more like Mohammed. I don't know how it work out for Hindus, as they could act like either Vishnu or Shiva, as the mood struck them, and still behave in a God-like manner.

On this forum, Christianity is the most familiar religion and as they say, familiarity breeds contempt.

This was my point. Just as many Muslims act like Jesus as Christians.

Religion doesn't make people good. It only gives some justification for being bad.

 

[Bronzeage]

This is true of any religion and not restricted to Christianity. The world would be nicer if Buddhists acted more like the Buddha and Muslims, more like Mohammed. I don't know how it work out for Hindus, as they could act like either Vishnu or Shiva, as the mood struck them, and still behave in a God-like manner.

On this forum, Christianity is the most familiar religion and as they say, familiarity breeds contempt.

This was my point. Just as many Muslims act like Jesus as Christians.

Religion doesn't make people good. It only gives some justification for being bad.

I know a lot of people who do bad things and they have no religious convictions of any particular variety. I know other people who constantly strive to be good and claim it is because of their religious convictions.

As for "being bad," whose call is that? There maybe some anti-abortion protesters who get up in the morning and say, "I'm going to make a desperate pregnant woman miserable, today," but most get up and say, "I'm going to save a baby, today." If the baby in question were lying on a railroad track, in front of an oncoming train, few would defend the mother's right to choose where her baby takes a nap. Both sides may not agree on when life begins, but they do agree it will end on a railroad track, if nobody moves the baby.

The religious rescuer can claim "life is sacred" as a motive, while the atheist must find some other philosophical reasoning for risking life, in order to save life. Everyone thinks their own motivations are sound and in most cases, superior to those of people who choose to different, but it's not evidence of goodness or badness.

 

[Wiploc]

The Christians worship Jesus. The Muslims and Jews don't. So it's pretty easy to argue that they aren't all worshiping the same person.

It would help if you learned something about Abrahamic Religions before launching into this kind of discussion. It is easy to argue anything, and just as easy to be wrong.

This is insult without information. I don't know what you think you know about Abrahamic gods that you think I don't know.

You asked how it could be that Muslims and Christians could both revere Abraham but worship different gods. So I don't see why you're slapping down someone for answering.

I've already stated my opinion that the question of whether Allah and the Christian trinity are one-and-the-same is not truth apt. But you asked how they can be seen as different gods, so I answered.

 

[Wiploc]

The Christians worship Jesus. The Muslims and Jews don't. So it's pretty easy to argue that they aren't all worshiping the same person.

The Christians worship Jesus as an aspect of god,

That looks like word salad, gibberish.

Of course, you personally may mean something coherent by it, but "Christians" don't. You can't reasonably claim that Christians in general understand and agree with your particular method of coping with the contradictory and incomprehensible trinitarian doctrine.

while the Muslim and Jews think he's just a human prophet amongst others.

Correct.

But they still worship the same god

This is not true (or false). There is no objective test of whether two fantasies are actually separate fantasies with similarities or one fantasy with differences.

This is a viewpoint question, not a truth question.

 

[dx713]

The Christians worship Jesus as an aspect of god,

That looks like word salad, gibberish.

Of course, you personally may mean something coherent by it, but "Christians" don't. You can't reasonably claim that Christians in general understand and agree with your particular method of coping with the contradictory and incomprehensible trinitarian doctrine.

while the Muslim and Jews think he's just a human prophet amongst others.

Correct.

But they still worship the same god

This is not true (or false). There is no objective test of whether two fantasies are actually separate fantasies with similarities or one fantasy with differences.

This is a viewpoint question, not a truth question.

I don't have to cope with the trinitarian belief, I'm the atheist. That doesn't mean that's not how they cope. (sources: an ex-nun grandmother, and a big in-law family of catholics, and their local priest)

And as it's their fantasy, I abide by their interpretation: Jewish friends, Muslim friends, and the aforementioned catholic priest, have all assured me they worship the same god. I don't know why the atheist who doesn't share their fantasy should challenge it. We're talking about their feelings there, when we debate the uniqueness of god, or this debate has no point. If we talk about us atheists point of view, god not existing, everything is true and false and we can just close the thread now.

 

[untermensche]

This was my point. Just as many Muslims act like Jesus as Christians.

Religion doesn't make people good. It only gives some justification for being bad.

I know a lot of people who do bad things and they have no religious convictions of any particular variety. I know other people who constantly strive to be good and claim it is because of their religious convictions.

As for "being bad," whose call is that? There maybe some anti-abortion protesters who get up in the morning and say, "I'm going to make a desperate pregnant woman miserable, today," but most get up and say, "I'm going to save a baby, today." If the baby in question were lying on a railroad track, in front of an oncoming train, few would defend the mother's right to choose where her baby takes a nap. Both sides may not agree on when life begins, but they do agree it will end on a railroad track, if nobody moves the baby.

The religious rescuer can claim "life is sacred" as a motive, while the atheist must find some other philosophical reasoning for risking life, in order to save life. Everyone thinks their own motivations are sound and in most cases, superior to those of people who choose to different, but it's not evidence of goodness or badness.

People may do bad things without religion, but they don't have justifications for it beyond claiming their desires take precedence over everything. In other words their claims are dismissed for what they are.

Religion allows one to hide behind "My god commanded".

My god commanded that women are second class citizens says the Pope and many others.

My god commanded that homosexuals are sinners.

My god commanded that I am to protect the unborn from their mothers.

When you can hide behind "My god commanded" you can do a lot of harm.

 

[Bronzeage]

I know a lot of people who do bad things and they have no religious convictions of any particular variety. I know other people who constantly strive to be good and claim it is because of their religious convictions.

As for "being bad," whose call is that? There maybe some anti-abortion protesters who get up in the morning and say, "I'm going to make a desperate pregnant woman miserable, today," but most get up and say, "I'm going to save a baby, today." If the baby in question were lying on a railroad track, in front of an oncoming train, few would defend the mother's right to choose where her baby takes a nap. Both sides may not agree on when life begins, but they do agree it will end on a railroad track, if nobody moves the baby.

The religious rescuer can claim "life is sacred" as a motive, while the atheist must find some other philosophical reasoning for risking life, in order to save life. Everyone thinks their own motivations are sound and in most cases, superior to those of people who choose to different, but it's not evidence of goodness or badness.

People may do bad things without religion, but they don't have justifications for it beyond claiming their desires take precedence over everything. In other words their claims are dismissed for what they are.

Religion allows one to hide behind "My god commanded".

My god commanded that women are second class citizens says the Pope and many others.

My god commanded that homosexuals are sinners.

My god commanded that I am to protect the unborn from their mothers.

When you can hide behind "My god commanded" you can do a lot of harm.

More harm than, "This is for the good of society,"?

 

[fromderinside]

More harm than, "This is for the good of society,"?

You hate America!

 

[Bronzeage]

It would help if you learned something about Abrahamic Religions before launching into this kind of discussion. It is easy to argue anything, and just as easy to be wrong.

This is insult without information. I don't know what you think you know about Abrahamic gods that you think I don't know.

You asked how it could be that Muslims and Christians could both revere Abraham but worship different gods. So I don't see why you're slapping down someone for answering.

I've already stated my opinion that the question of whether Allah and the Christian trinity are one-and-the-same is not truth apt. But you asked how they can be seen as different gods, so I answered.

My apology if offense was taken where none was intended. I don't believe that was what I asked.

The concept of "God, the one and only God, creator of heaven and earth," is an exclusive class. There can't be two "One and only" Gods. For the Judeo-Islamic-Christian faiths, their "One and only God" concept is traced back to a single man. No Jew, Muslim, or Christian who is conscious of
the traditions of their faith believes the others worship a different God.

The only way a person could believe the God of the Jews, or the God of the Muslims, or the God of the Christians are different entities, would be because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of Abrahamic Religions.

If the point you want to make is that ignorant people may believe the Muslims and Christians worship different Gods, then we are in agreement.

 

[fromderinside]

So what you are actually saying they, the religions under discussion here, all agree that no other god is before their God, that they agree with a single documented point from a single document? People who see these religions has having different Gods still aren't clear on that point.

 

[Bronzeage]

So what you are actually saying they, the religions under discussion here, all agree that no other god is before their God, that they agree with a single documented point from a single document? People who see these religions has having different Gods still aren't clear on that point.

Calling it a documented point and single document may stretch things, since the tradition of Abraham precedes written documents. With that understanding, the tradition of the Abrahamic God is that this is the One and Only God of which the Muslims, the Jews, and the Christians, speak.

I for one am glad this discussion centers on monotheistic religions. I really wouldn't want to do this all over again with a pantheon.

 

[Wiploc]

The concept of "God, the one and only God, creator of heaven and earth," is an exclusive class. There can't be two "One and only" Gods.

Sara and Joe dispute who won the 1964 fight between Liston and Clay. "The winner of that fight" is an exclusive class. There can't be two one-and-only winners of that fight. But that doesn't make Liston and Clay the same person.

For the Judeo-Islamic-Christian faiths, their "One and only God" concept is traced back to a single man. No Jew, Muslim, or Christian who is conscious of
the traditions of their faith believes the others worship a different God.

Maybe we have a lot of ignorant Christians around? All I know is that it's not unusual to hear them claim that our god is better than theirs.

I don't have standing to judge how much they know about the traditions of their faith. And, as an atheist, I don't have standing to say that one theist is right and another is wrong.

I think theism itself is wrong. And I don't think there is any right way to do a wrong thing. Believing that Allah is the same person as Jehovah doesn't make someone "right" anymore than believing that Tywin Lannister wasn't really Tyrion's father made me "wrong." "You can believe it's anyone you want to," George R R Martin explained to me. And that's got to be the bottom line on the Allah/Jehovah issue too.

I've always thought of Jehovah and Allah as one person, for the reasons you provide. But that's a way of thinking about it, not an objective truth.

The only way a person could believe the God of the Jews, or the God of the Muslims, or the God of the Christians are different entities, would be because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of Abrahamic Religions.

This suggests that you're ready to stand in judgment of other people's religions. "Hey, you, Satanist artist: Satan only has two horns, and his tail isn't forked!"

If the point you want to make is that ignorant people may believe the Muslims and Christians worship different Gods, then we are in agreement.

My point is that worshipers of Abrahamic gods dispute the issue of whether they worship the same god. The issue is not truth apt, so when we atheists jump in and say, "This theist is right and that one is wrong," we are not only wrong ourselves, but we are legitimizing nonsense, endorsing wrongness.

Oh, and thanks for the apology.

 

[Bronzeage]

Sara and Joe dispute who won the 1964 fight between Liston and Clay. "The winner of that fight" is an exclusive class. There can't be two one-and-only winners of that fight. But that doesn't make Liston and Clay the same person.

For the Judeo-Islamic-Christian faiths, their "One and only God" concept is traced back to a single man. No Jew, Muslim, or Christian who is conscious of
the traditions of their faith believes the others worship a different God.

Maybe we have a lot of ignorant Christians around? All I know is that it's not unusual to hear them claim that our god is better than theirs.

I don't have standing to judge how much they know about the traditions of their faith. And, as an atheist, I don't have standing to say that one theist is right and another is wrong.

I think theism itself is wrong. And I don't think there is any right way to do a wrong thing. Believing that Allah is the same person as Jehovah doesn't make someone "right" anymore than believing that Tywin Lannister wasn't really Tyrion's father made me "wrong." "You can believe it's anyone you want to," George R R Martin explained to me. And that's got to be the bottom line on the Allah/Jehovah issue too.

I've always thought of Jehovah and Allah as one person, for the reasons you provide. But that's a way of thinking about it, not an objective truth.

The only way a person could believe the God of the Jews, or the God of the Muslims, or the God of the Christians are different entities, would be because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of Abrahamic Religions.

This suggests that you're ready to stand in judgement of other people's religions. "Hey, you, Satanist artist: Satan only has two horns, and his tail isn't forked!"

If the point you want to make is that ignorant people may believe the Muslims and Christians worship different Gods, then we are in agreement.

My point is that worshipers of Abrahamic gods dispute the issue of whether they worship the same god. The issue is not truth apt, so when we atheists jump in and say, "This theist is right and that one is wrong," we are not only wrong ourselves, but we are offering legitimacy to nonsense, endorsing wrongness.

My, my, my. If you think theism is wrong, as in there is no Deus in Deism, this is a simple academic exercise and I have tried to be as academic as possible. If I can't phrase it in terms you find agreeable, I've done my best. I have explained the tradition upon which Abrahamic Religions are based. This tradition includes a One God concept and a man named Abraham.

If, just for the sake of argument, we allow the actual existence of such a God, then all of the 3 major religions which claim Abraham as an antecedent of their present forms, are worshipping the same God. Abrahamic Theists who claim otherwise have simply misunderstood the teachings of their religion and non-theists who think these 3 religions worship different Gods are in factual error.

Just for my own curiosity, do you you know of any Abrahamic sects which claim other Abrahamic sects are not worshipping the God of Abraham?

 

[Wiploc]

My, my, my. If you think theism is wrong, as in there is no Deus in Deism, this is a simple academic exercise and I have tried to be as academic as possible. If I can't phrase it in terms you find agreeable, I've done my best.

This isn't a matter of phrasing. We have an actual disagreement.

I have explained the tradition upon which Abrahamic Religions are based. This tradition includes a One God concept and a man named Abraham.

I'm with you, to an extent.

But there's also a tradition of one Christian pointing at another and saying, "You're not a real Christian." There's a tradition of calling people atheists if they do (or don't do) masses, or if they do baptism wrong (by immersion, say, or by sprinkling).

The Christian tradition grew out of the Jewish tradition, so it seems crazy for a Christian to think Jews worship a different god. But it's not at all strange for a Jew to think Christians worship a different god than the Jews do.

Likewise, Muslims pretty much ought to say they worship the same god as Christians and Jews, but Christians and Jews have no particular reason to agree that the Muslim god is the same as theirs.

Muslim: "I'm telling you I worship the same god!"

Christian: "But my god is Jesus, and yours isn't."

So, yes, there are many people who say these are all the same god; yet still some say they aren't, sometimes from the floor of the House of Representatives.

If, just for the sake of argument, we allow the actual existence of such a God, then all of the 3 major religions which claim Abraham as an antecedent of their present forms, are worshipping the same God.

You are assuming the fact that you want to prove.

Let's assume three different gods, and now suddenly they are not the same person.

You may think that being the one-and-only creator god is dispositive, but some people think the trinitarian doctrine is what's key. In his modal argument, Plantinga assumes that "maximal greatness" is the key (he defines god as the person who is maximally great, and just assumes everybody will think he's still talking about Jehovah).

Abrahamic Theists who claim otherwise have simply misunderstood the teachings of their religion and non-theists who think these 3 religions worship different Gods are in factual error.

Again, you seem to be judging theist doctrines, declaring some nonsense to be "correct" nonsense, and other nonsense to be "error."

Just for my own curiosity, do you you know of any Abrahamic sects which claim other Abrahamic sects are not worshipping the God of Abraham?

No, I don't. But I have run across individuals, on the internet and in meatworld, who opine that these are different gods.

On a viewpoint issue like this, an issue where there is no objective truth, no view can have primacy over another.

But here's where I think we can agree: If you claimed that the weight of tradition was on the side of Jehovah and Allah being the same god, then you would just be right.

But if you say it is actually true that Jehovah and Allah are the same god, then you are treating subjective opinion as if it were fact.

 

[untermensche]

People may do bad things without religion, but they don't have justifications for it beyond claiming their desires take precedence over everything. In other words their claims are dismissed for what they are.

Religion allows one to hide behind "My god commanded".

My god commanded that women are second class citizens says the Pope and many others.

My god commanded that homosexuals are sinners.

My god commanded that I am to protect the unborn from their mothers.

When you can hide behind "My god commanded" you can do a lot of harm.

More harm than, "This is for the good of society,"?

At least if somebody claims they are doing something good for society you can test the claim.

When somebody says they are commanded by god you can't test the claim.

God says homosexuality is a sin. End of story.

God says you can't draw the likeness of Mohammed. End of story.

 

[arkirk]

More harm than, "This is for the good of society,"?

At least if somebody claims they are doing something good for society you can test the claim.

When somebody says they are commanded by god you can't test the claim.

God says homosexuality is a sin. End of story.

God says you can't draw the likeness of Mohammed. End of story.

Oh! This appears to be an unending story. We still have no idea what a mature environmentally responsible culture would look like. Humans appear to have a deficiency in the ability to see past their point in history. Information gathered in the past makes it clear it is easy for a whole society to be so narcissistic and "cultural" it only has one idea of how the future might unfold. Religions tend to amplify this condition, erasing all doubts and in most cases all curiosity about such matters.

The more thoroughly a religion dominates a culture, the more clueless the society.