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How would you debate this argument

Sarpedon said:
Yes, and that hasn't stopped 2,000 years of christians meddling in politics. Religion is all about power. The NT was written when christians were in the minority, and was written for the purposes of the leaders of a small cult. When it became the majority religion, the NT became irrelevant, and was replaced in practice with a variety of extra-biblical beliefs. Thus the god who once preached poverty became the god of the rich. Turn the other cheek gave way to crusades, and obey the earthly leaders and pay your taxes became make your religion your government and taxes are evil.

The NT is shibboleth.
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sadly so
 
ksen said:
Sarpedon said:
And may I point out that christians believe (or have believed) all sorts of things that aren't in the bible.
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And you would be correct. That doesn't change the fact that there are no commands in the NT to set up any particular form of government.
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Nonetheless, unless within extremely liberal Christian circles in the US, I am not seeing much protesting from the general American Christian population against the recurrence of blatant breaches of the Establishment Clause, so often illustrated by legislators promoting and passing laws obviously motivated by their interpretation of the Bible. You many not have a clear/cut exhortation for a Christian theocracy in the Bible, but many of your fellow Christians remain apathetic to the rise of the Religious Right Wing in the US, a Religious Right Wing having wet dreams about reconstructionism and penetrating the very political realm of your country.
 
I know, which is why I left them behind.

(shit, do I owe Tim LaHaye royalties now?)
 
Ford said:
Off the top of my head I'd counter that the "countries that are Christian countries" are in fact secular countries that happen to be populated by some Christians. Their systems of government are not based in any way on religious principles (unless you can find a Biblical basis for democracy) and if those nations were still under the rule of "The Church" (Protestant or Catholic variations) they'd likely still be as repressive as they once were.

By the same token, give the Muslim countries a long period of secular democracy and they'd be doing just fine - with the added benefit of "culture" that in some cases predates what we think of as "western civilization."
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If the Christian fundamentalists in this country had their way we would burn 99% of the books and denounce rational thought and science as the work of Satan.

The US has helped religious fundamentalism maintain a level of power in the Muslim world.

From it's overturn of an elected government in Iran that led to a takeover by religious fundamentalists, to it's support of totalitarian regimes in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and others, to it's diplomatic cover for Israeli oppression that has led to groups like Hamas, to it's invasion of Iraq that ignited sectarian violence, the US has done little but make things worse.

The more power religious fundamentalists have the less progress we will see.
 
Ford said:
Off the top of my head I'd counter that the "countries that are Christian countries" are in fact secular countries that happen to be populated by some Christians. Their systems of government are not based in any way on religious principles (unless you can find a Biblical basis for democracy) and if those nations were still under the rule of "The Church" (Protestant or Catholic variations) they'd likely still be as repressive as they once were.
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^^^THIS^^^. Among the evidence for this is that among countries that are more "christian" rather being Muslim, etc., those that are the least religious tend to be best educated with the US being among the most religious and worst educated among modern democracies. Then within the USA, the most Christian states are the least educated. Then within individual states, the most Christian people are the least educated people.
At every level of analyses (i.e., whether comparing nations, states within the US, people within states) there is a strong negative relationship between the strength of Christian belief and both education (both in terms of amount of education and quality of education).

The Enlightenment gave rise to both technological advancement and political secularism. The enlightenment happened to occur within "Christian" societies thus there is a spurious relationship where formally "Christian" nations are more advanced and educated than Muslim countries. However, the actual cause of education in the West is the rejection of religion (including Christianity) as a legit basis for social and political policy. Only this interpretation can explain the reliable negative relationship between religiosity and education that exists between and within western nations.
 
NobleSavage said:
Didn't you notice that the countries that are Christian countries are always much better then the countries that serve other gods.Muslims are even the worst.
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No. It's impossible to notice something that isn't true.



Look the arabs ... no culture what so ever ...
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There's nothing wrong with having been lied to, but you aren't supposed to like it. And you aren't supposed to pass the lie on to other people.
 
ksen said:
As your resident lovable theist let me just point out that the bible never tells us to set up a theocracy (or any particular form of government) . . . unless you happen to be jewish and it's about 4,000 years ago.
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Wow. Never would have guessed. :surprise:
 
Tigers! said:
Bronzeage said:
The Islamic God and the Christian God are one and the same ...
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Do you really believe that Allah is the same of Jehovah? From a million miles away they might appear the same but but up close the differences are profound.
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Christians have to believe that their god is also the Jewish god. Muslims have to believe that their god is also the Christian and Jewish god.

But the claim that Allah and Jehovah are the same god is not truth apt; it is neither true or false.

If there really were gods, and if one of them was Allah and another Jehovah, then it would be true that they were different gods. Or, if there really was one god, and he was both Allah and Jehovah, then it would be true that they are the same god. But, since gods don't exist, their identity is not a matter of truth or falsehood. It is a matter of viewpoint, of whether you like to think of Allah/Jehovah as one god or two.

The issue falls into the same category as questions like "Is that sunset beautiful?" and "Is strawberry the best flavor of ice cream?"
 
Wiploc said:
Tigers! said:
Do you really believe that Allah is the same of Jehovah? From a million miles away they might appear the same but but up close the differences are profound.
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Christians have to believe that their god is also the Jewish god. Muslims have to believe that their god is also the Christian and Jewish god.

But the claim that Allah and Jehovah are the same god is not truth apt; it is neither true or false.

If there really were gods, and if one of them was Allah and another Jehovah, then it would be true that they were different gods. Or, if there really was one god, and he was both Allah and Jehovah, then it would be true that they are the same god. But, since gods don't exist, their identity is not a matter of truth or falsehood. It is a matter of viewpoint, of whether you like to think of Allah/Jehovah as one god or two.

The issue falls into the same category as questions like "Is that sunset beautiful?" and "Is strawberry the best flavor of ice cream?"
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The BEST??!? How DARE you even suggest the Straberrian Heresy in such an offhand manner? You must be burned at the stake forthwith, with a pause only to torture you until you recant, and accept chocolate ice cream as the One True Flavour.
 
bilby said:
Wiploc said:
Christians have to believe that their god is also the Jewish god. Muslims have to believe that their god is also the Christian and Jewish god.

But the claim that Allah and Jehovah are the same god is not truth apt; it is neither true or false.

If there really were gods, and if one of them was Allah and another Jehovah, then it would be true that they were different gods. Or, if there really was one god, and he was both Allah and Jehovah, then it would be true that they are the same god. But, since gods don't exist, their identity is not a matter of truth or falsehood. It is a matter of viewpoint, of whether you like to think of Allah/Jehovah as one god or two.

The issue falls into the same category as questions like "Is that sunset beautiful?" and "Is strawberry the best flavor of ice cream?"
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The BEST??!? How DARE you even suggest the Straberrian Heresy in such an offhand manner? You must be burned at the stake forthwith, with a pause only to torture you until you recant, and accept chocolate ice cream as the One True Flavour.
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Chocolate is what the Hierarchy doles out to the plebes so the Hierarchy can have the praline all to itself....
 
"Why do the Christian nations, which were so weak in the past compared with Muslim nations begin to dominate so many lands in modern times and even defeat the once victorious Ottoman armies?"..."Because they have laws and rules invented by reason"
Ibrahim Muteferrika, Rational basis for the Politics of Nations (1731)
 
Wiploc said:
Tigers! said:
Do you really believe that Allah is the same of Jehovah? From a million miles away they might appear the same but but up close the differences are profound.
Click to expand...

Christians have to believe that their god is also the Jewish god. Muslims have to believe that their god is also the Christian and Jewish god.

But the claim that Allah and Jehovah are the same god is not truth apt; it is neither true or false.

If there really were gods, and if one of them was Allah and another Jehovah, then it would be true that they were different gods. Or, if there really was one god, and he was both Allah and Jehovah, then it would be true that they are the same god. But, since gods don't exist, their identity is not a matter of truth or falsehood. It is a matter of viewpoint, of whether you like to think of Allah/Jehovah as one god or two.

The issue falls into the same category as questions like "Is that sunset beautiful?" and "Is strawberry the best flavor of ice cream?"
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I suppose it's a matter of viewpoint whether any of us hold any particular belief. One could claim the Roman Catholic God and the Protestant God are different and separate entities, if that was one's viewpoint, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

As for facts, that is not the way it works. The historical roots (as told by their tradition) of the Semitic monotheism peoples go back to a single man, Abraham, whose sons became the forebears of two separate nations. Abraham is distinguished as the common ancestor of both the Arab and Jewish world, in the genetic sense. He is distinguished as the common ancestor of the Islamic, Judaic, and Christian world in the religious sense. Every educated Christian, Muslim, and Jew knows the recognises "the God of Abraham" as the object of their prayers.

If you want to use an ice cream analogy, you would need to say there is one Icecream and man addeth flavors as to his own taste. This would explain the Holy Trinity of Neapolitan, vanilla, strawberry and chocolate.
 
Bronzeage said:
Tigers! said:
Which is not the same as saying they worship the same God.
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Please explain how this can be. The God of Abraham is the God to which Muslims, Christians, and Jews, direct their prayers. Did someone pull a switch on us?
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The Christians worship Jesus. The Muslims and Jews don't. So it's pretty easy to argue that they aren't all worshiping the same person.
 
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