Human nature

[untermensche]

What is the nature of humans?

Premise: Humans are greedy self-centered beings that only want comfort and do not care that much about others

Chomsky: That is a creation of the advertising industry. It is what advertisers turn children into. At one time the working class was better read than the aristocracy.

 

[untermensche]

The idea is that the nature of many humans today is a creation of the advertising industry.

The greedy self obsessed consumer is not what humans strive to be. It is not a natural state.

It is what a bombardment of indoctrination beginning with the cartoons children watch creates over time.

The idea is humanity could be so much more than it is.

And nothing about human nature would have to change.

 

[steve_bank]

Chomsky shmomsky.

All's you have to do is look at other species. Higher level critters are almost exclusively hierarchal with combat common to settle disputes. Chimps throw feces in disputes. Male territorial critters like bears.

Part of it is generic, part learned social behavior. Our aversion to nudity to the point of limiting women from breast feeding in public is learned behavior.

That comes from our imagination, articulate language, and ability to sway people.

IMO communism failed in Russia and China in part because it stifled a natural human need for competition . Our free market system allows for completion within limits. Hierarchies naturally evolve.

 

[untermensche]

I couldn't disagree more.

Human hierarchies don't just form. Except the child/parent hierarchy where the parent is looking after a child that does not know better and can hurt themselves. The hierarchy is acceptable when the parent is looking after the best interest of the child. It is not acceptable to have a hierarchy with the purpose of one person profiting off the labor of another.

Human hierarchies are deliberately created to trap helpless others within them.

The monarchy does not just form as an act of nature.

That is why it can easily be replaced with something else.

The hierarchies in the workplace could just as easily be replaced. And society would benefit just as it benefits from democracy over monarchy in government.

But the video was about advertising creating greedy self-centered perpetually childlike consumers who gain emotional comfort by buying things they don't need.

It is as if you did not even watch it.

When somebody bad mouths Chomsky they show themselves to be a fool.

 

[DBT]

Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.

 

[fromderinside]

If we just trace our path to being human we will find change in social size and texture is the dominant attribute. From pairs to few to several to groups to clans to tribes to interlocking tribers to multi-interlocking tribes to communities to principalities to nations to partial continental to continental to multiple continental unions to .... Such changes negate individual selfish impulses over generalizations to mere violent incidental exceptions.

So far we've managed to establish some pretty big groupings even though they do tend to follow cycles where self interest tends to break them down to at least the tribal level only to see a rise to even more universal social commerce. Communication is replacing personal imperatives as primary driver for human social evolution over the past 70 thousand or so years.

True there is a range of selfishness within each of us that is capable of bringing society to a sudden stop. So far the evidence is that humans are becoming more socially organized in cooperative unions as time passes.

 

[untermensche]

Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.

Hierarchies don't just form.

And economic hierarchies have nothing to do with naturally dominant people.

They have to do with most being in a state of need and being forced by circumstances to work for another person to survive.

When we look at natural behavior, like normal humans in high school we see that social clicks do form naturally but no power hierarchies form.

Power hierarchies are unnatural and dehumanizing.

But none of this addresses the point of the thread which is about the way humans are programmed by a constant onslaught of very carefully crafted messaging to become a sick greedy self-centered child for life.

 

[fast]

Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.

Hierarchies don't just form.

And economic hierarchies have nothing to do with naturally dominant people.

They have to do with most being in a state of need and being forced by circumstances to work for another person to survive.

When we look at natural behavior, like normal humans in high school we see that social clicks do form naturally but no power hierarchies form.

Power hierarchies are unnatural and dehumanizing.

But none of this addresses the point of the thread which is about the way humans are programmed by a constant onslaught of very carefully crafted messaging to become a sick greedy self-centered child for life.

When you say “to” in “crafted to become”, you convey intent and purpose as if if to answer why and explain motive. There is a difference between an incidental occurrence that is a byproduct of our actions and full fledged intent to bring about what you speak of.

 

[untermensche]

Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.

Hierarchies don't just form.

And economic hierarchies have nothing to do with naturally dominant people.

They have to do with most being in a state of need and being forced by circumstances to work for another person to survive.

When we look at natural behavior, like normal humans in high school we see that social clicks do form naturally but no power hierarchies form.

Power hierarchies are unnatural and dehumanizing.

But none of this addresses the point of the thread which is about the way humans are programmed by a constant onslaught of very carefully crafted messaging to become a sick greedy self-centered child for life.

When you say “to” in “crafted to become”, you convey intent and purpose as if if to answer why and explain motive. There is a difference between an incidental occurrence that is a byproduct of our actions and full fledged intent to bring about what you speak of.

Did you watch the video?

I am expressing ideas from Chomsky.

And he is definitely attributing intent to the people creating the messaging.

What intent do you think exists in trying to elicit "nagging" behavior in children?

What does most advertising have to do with making a rational choice?

It is an education in making bad emotional decisions. A constant ubiquitous unrelenting education. And it is there because it works.

 

[steve_bank]

Genetic and social influences developed because it affected group survival. There are theories why Neanderthals died out.

From a show on gorillas. A male and female leave the group in different directions, rendvous, have sex, and return avoiding the eye of alpha male.

There are male chimps that submit to ritual humping to signify loosing a dispute.

 

[untermensche]

Genetic and social influences developed because it affected group survival. There are theories why Neanderthals died out.

From a show on gorillas. A male and female leave the group in different directions, rendvous, have sex, and return avoiding the eye of alpha male.

There are male chimps that submit to ritual humping to signify loosing a dispute.

Dictatorial systems are systems built around primitive bullying and submission.

Democratic systems are based on cooperation and equal rights.

Only humans have democracies.

Humans are close to chimps and gorillas in some ways but in some ways extremely different.

But this thread is about advertising specifically designed to indoctrinate children. Chimp advertising is not as sophisticated.

 

[steve_bank]

Genetic and social influences developed because it affected group survival. There are theories why Neanderthals died out.

From a show on gorillas. A male and female leave the group in different directions, rendvous, have sex, and return avoiding the eye of alpha male.

There are male chimps that submit to ritual humping to signify loosing a dispute.

Dictatorial systems are systems built around primitive bullying and submission.

Democratic systems are based on cooperation and equal rights.

Only humans have democracies.

Humans are close to chimps and gorillas in some ways but in some ways extremely different.

But this thread is about advertising specifically designed to indoctrinate children. Chimp advertising is not as sophisticated.

The myth of democracy. I have come to view congress as a group of screeching chimps throwing feces at each other. Congress even within parties have disctinct groups each with an alpha male or female these days.

The conservative view of the economy is like an economic jungle where it is killed or be killed. The strong eat the weak.

We all knew it, at leat any intelligent expenced person. As we see played out in grphic detail in the news we are not realy a democracy subject to the will of the people.

We are a plutocracy where money usually below the surface influences decisions.\

http://search.searchlen.com/?uid=de...email_spt__1.30&source=ae-bb8-iei&uc=20190216
Post World War II[edit]

In modern times, the term is sometimes used pejoratively to refer to societies rooted in state-corporate capitalism or which prioritize the accumulation of wealth over other interests.[27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][excessive citations] According to Kevin Phillips, author and political strategist to Richard Nixon, the United States is a plutocracy in which there is a "fusion of money and government."[36]

Chrystia Freeland, author of Plutocrats: The Rise of the New Global Super-Rich and the Fall of Everyone Else,[37] says that the present trend towards plutocracy occurs because the rich feel that their interests are shared by society


The major decisions that most affect us today is by big business. Microsoft, Apple, Amazon.

The founders did not intend for there to be a presidential campaign and did not want the president electedd by popular vote. They knew it would lead to tribal conflict and chaos as we see today.

Electors in states were supposed to be business and land owners who had a stake in the country.

Yes we have a lot of unprecedented freedoms, but to say it is from demo cry is bit shallow. We are advanced monkeys.

It is not the result of democracy per se, it is due to free market capitalism within loose bounds that allows our genetic aggressiveness to play out.

The presidential campaign is generally a battle between men for nation's alpha male status.

Jane Goodall's films on chimps should be online along with her eventual analysis and conclusions.

 

[DBT]

Human hierarchies form because, in part, dominant individuals are able to gain from their makeup and natural assets. Successful business people become richer than the workers they employ, have more influence in government, buy mansions on the hill, gated communities, etc.

Power, privilege and wealth drives division, so we end up with the haves, the have not's, those with great power and others experiencing powerlessness.

Those in power being reluctant to relinquish their gains are not likely to embrace change that threatens their own lavish lifestyles.

Hierarchies don't just form.

And economic hierarchies have nothing to do with naturally dominant people.

They have to do with most being in a state of need and being forced by circumstances to work for another person to survive.

When we look at natural behavior, like normal humans in high school we see that social clicks do form naturally but no power hierarchies form.

Power hierarchies are unnatural and dehumanizing.

But none of this addresses the point of the thread which is about the way humans are programmed by a constant onslaught of very carefully crafted messaging to become a sick greedy self-centered child for life.

A lot of things form. People come together to form a Union. Some form partnerships in Business, relationships form and dissolve, etc, etc.....and my use of the word dominant includes adaptive. Adaptive socially, adaptive in evolutionary terms and so on.

If someone has a good head for business, they are going to do better at business, hence make more money, get rich, buy the mansion on the hill with others in that position....and there you have it, a class of wealthy business people has formed.

 

[untermensche]

The myth of democracy. I have come to view congress as a group of screeching chimps throwing feces at each other. Congress even within parties have disctinct groups each with an alpha male or female these days.

The myth is that you can have a decent democracy when the system is polluted by wealth and corruption.

We are a plutocracy where money usually below the surface influences decisions.

Exactly. But not usually, almost always.

But none of this has anything to do with the indoctrination of children by an advertising industry.

 

[untermensche]

A lot of things form. People come together to form a Union.

These people are already together. They are already working together.

But a union is necessary when you have an adversarial relationship between the masters and the servants. Between capital and labor.

We shouldn't have systems of masters and servants anymore but human progress is slow and while we have it unions are a necessity.

But none of this has anything to do with the deliberate indoctrination carried out by advertisers.

 

[steve_bank]

The myth of democracy. I have come to view congress as a group of screeching chimps throwing feces at each other. Congress even within parties have disctinct groups each with an alpha male or female these days.

The myth is that you can have a decent democracy when the system is polluted by wealth and corruption.

We are a plutocracy where money usually below the surface influences decisions.

Exactly. But not usually, almost always.

But none of this has anything to do with the indoctrination of children by an advertising industry.

There are chimps who make stone tools to crack nuts. From the video there is a quarry area where they pick particular rocks. They carry them to a work area where using other rocks they chip a rock to a form.

It passed on by observation and mimick.

Cultural indoctrination.

Monkeies and chimps are raised to conform to social rules.

Indoctrination is not unique to humans.

A long time bird watcher told me crows will sometimes single out a particular crow for expulsion.

Mature IOW genetics vs nurture applies across the spectrum of life. Back in te 50s we were taught in school what set humans apart was articulate speech, opposing thumb and forefinger, and toolmaking.

We can now say we are better at tool making and problem solving g but not unique.

And we do not have a democracy, we have a democratic republic .A complex social structure compared to chimps, but chimps and humans both have culture.

 

[untermensche]

And we do not have a democracy, we have a democratic republic .

The kind of republic we are supposed to have is a democratic republic.

We have a republic that is supposed to work using democracy. If your nation is suppose to be operating using democracy it is supposed to be a democracy.

We have in reality a system where the rich make almost all the rules. We are in a state of constant war to feed a military industrial complex. And voting is mostly a sham for suckers.

That is not called a republic, democratic or otherwise

It is oligarchy.

But this or talking about chimps is not addressing the topic of the thread, which is the deliberate indoctrination of the young exposed to advertising and the transformation of young people that could be pushed into any direction into greedy self-centered materialists.

 

[DBT]

A lot of things form. People come together to form a Union.

These people are already together. They are already working together.

Not necessarily. They may be business competitors. Some may fail as a result of competition. We have a range of sectors; retail, manufacturing, shipping, construction, etc, etc.

Some do better than others.

But none of this has anything to do with the deliberate indoctrination carried out by advertisers.

That's a different issue altogether. Some businesses tender for contracts, building bridges or whatever, and don't need to advertise their services to the public.

 

[steve_bank]

And we do not have a democracy, we have a democratic republic .

The kind of republic we are supposed to have is a democratic republic.

We have a republic that is supposed to work using democracy. If your nation is suppose to be operating using democracy it is supposed to be a democracy.

We have in reality a system where the rich make almost all the rules. We are in a state of constant war to feed a military industrial complex. And voting is mostly a sham for suckers.

That is not called a republic, democratic or otherwise

It is oligarchy.

But this or talking about chimps is not addressing the topic of the thread, which is the deliberate indoctrination of the young exposed to advertising and the transformation of young people that could be pushed into any direction into greedy self-centered materialists.

And as Jefferson said democracy requires educated cutizens.

Which we do not have in the sense of being able to make objective, reasoned, rational deisms on a large scale. It was never that way.

All cultures have mandatory indoctrination and always had.

Myths, metaphors, rituals. The Romans considered a state religion and rituals essential to good order in society.

Our American metaphors ... slam dunk, three strikes and you are out. you fumbled the ball. Pro sports is a cultural ritual and glue that helps maintain cohesion.

Tribal myths around a campfire.

If you want to talk about modern cultural propaganda that would be another thread. Before WWII the term propaganda was a common term in advertising and marketing. I'd have to look up the name of the author, in a book Propaganda he argued that complex modern society can not function without propaganda.

Industry began early, specialization of labor. Some build weapons, others hunt, other raise livestock.

Mass production goes at least as far back as ancient China. The Teera Cotta Army of buried staues was made by a procees that manufactured piece parts assembled into statues.

In medieval Europe there were factories that turned out body armor.

You seem to use indoctrination as a pejorative. What is the connection between specialized industrial society and the nature of humans?

We are more complex but he basic form of mourner society is the same as always.

And today the only deliberate indoctrination of youth is primary education and religion. Advertising exists because it it is not prohibited under our loose interpretation of constitutional freedom. Same with Hollywood and TV which presents anything it wants.

We initially grow up absorbing what surrounds us without the ability to analyze it.

 

[steve_bank]

What is the nature of humans?

Premise: Humans are greedy self-centered beings that only want comfort and do not care that much about others

Chomsky: That is a creation of the advertising industry. It is what advertisers turn children into. At one time the working class was better read than the aristocracy.

And you re incarnated as many are by Chomsky?

To restate there are always forms of advertising and indoctrination. Chomsky is one of those intellectuals who thinks he is profound ignoring the simple truths of society that allows him to live as a tenured professor in comfort babbling profound revelations.

You can involve enlightened self interest.

Our system is based on aggression ion by a few, which in turn lifts everyone else. Creates jobs and technology. Our modern society is a complex dynamic not easily reduced to simple declaratives and definitions.

The starting of Intel, Apple, and Microsoft made a small number of people wealthy in the quest for money and power. But the results also creating large scale employment and technology.

Are you making an argument for or against something?





Should be over on morality.

Except for a few we all have a generic instinct to survive.