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Humans really don't know what they're doing?

You are so fixated with your own experience of agency - lifting your arm at will - that you refuse to see any distinctions between what is understood in relation to cognition and motor action, and what is not....you refuse to consider the mechanisms and means of your conscious experience of agency.

I spent 25 years working with stroke patients.

I have real world knowledge about real people.

In that case you should understand that the symptoms of stroke are a consequence of a brain condition, which is manifested in a various ways, the damage to the brain effecting both bodily functions and the mind/cognition of the patient. It is not the mind that is the cause of the condition, but the brain, blood clots, etc, yet you veer off into uncharted territory that is not supported by evidence.

You have selective attention. Like many religious adherents.

You should know that the treatment for a stroke is to help the patient regain control of their body WITH THEIR MIND.

If the mind did not control the body there would be no use in giving stoke patients therapy. They would just regain activity as the brain healed. But that is not how the real world works. In the real world you have to get a person to use their mind to maximize return after a stroke.

That might be how your fantasy world works where inklings can be timed to the millisecond.
 
In that case you should understand that the symptoms of stroke are a consequence of a brain condition, which is manifested in a various ways, the damage to the brain effecting both bodily functions and the mind/cognition of the patient. It is not the mind that is the cause of the condition, but the brain, blood clots, etc, yet you veer off into uncharted territory that is not supported by evidence.

You have selective attention. Like many religious adherents.

You should know that the treatment for a stroke is to help the patient regain control of their body WITH THEIR MIND.

If the mind did not control the body there would be no use in giving stoke patients therapy. They would just regain activity as the brain healed. But that is not how the real world works. In the real world you have to get a person to use their mind to maximize return after a stroke.

That might be how your fantasy world works where inklings can be timed to the millisecond.

Cherry picking....the symptoms of stroke are a result of brain damage, blood clot, etc, and the treatment for stroke seeks to dissolve the clot (physical) and retrain the brain to function normally again (brain plasticity, new connections established, etc), the mind reflects the degree of success in relation to the treatments and therapies. Mind alone does not overcomes a blood clot, mind does not decide to grow new connections. This is done by the brain. If successful, the patient makes a recovery. If not, the patient either remains impaired or dies.
 
The necessities to fully recover from a stroke are not cherry picking.

And those necessities include engaging the mind.

Because without the mind actively working to regain control return of control will be limited.

Clear evidence the mind has an active role.

Except maybe to those hopelessly lost in delusions based only on the timing of inklings.
 
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The necessities to fully recover from a stroke are not cherry picking.

And those necessities include engaging the mind.

Because without the mind actively working to regain control return of control will be limited.

Clear evidence the mind has an active role.

Except maybe to those hopelessly lost in delusions based only on the timing of inklings.

Your use of the word mind sounds. Entirely interchangeable with the word soul...
 
The necessities to fully recover from a stroke are not cherry picking.

And those necessities include engaging the mind.

Because without the mind actively working to regain control return of control will be limited.

Clear evidence the mind has an active role.

Except maybe to those hopelessly lost in delusions based only on the timing of inklings.

Your use of the word mind sounds. Entirely interchangeable with the word soul...

Ah! Soul.
 
The necessities to fully recover from a stroke are not cherry picking.

And those necessities include engaging the mind.

Because without the mind actively working to regain control return of control will be limited.

Clear evidence the mind has an active role.

Except maybe to those hopelessly lost in delusions based only on the timing of inklings.

That's not what I said.

What I said was, the damage that a blood clot or lesion causes the brain is reflected in the decline in motor action and cognitive function, and restoring function entails both physical intervention, clot busters, etc, and therapy in order to restore normal functions, which depending on the damage may or may not be possible, or perhaps only to a limited degree.

This is not a problem with the mind, which is an expression of a brain, but the state and condition of a brain at any given moment in time.
 
The necessities to fully recover from a stroke are not cherry picking.

And those necessities include engaging the mind.

Because without the mind actively working to regain control return of control will be limited.

Clear evidence the mind has an active role.

Except maybe to those hopelessly lost in delusions based only on the timing of inklings.

Your use of the word mind sounds. Entirely interchangeable with the word soul...

Sounds like you have some kind of hangup.

This is not a rational point about anything.

The invention of the soul came about because we have a mind.

An active mind that needs to be directed to fully recover from a stroke.
 
The necessities to fully recover from a stroke are not cherry picking.

And those necessities include engaging the mind.

Because without the mind actively working to regain control return of control will be limited.

Clear evidence the mind has an active role.

Except maybe to those hopelessly lost in delusions based only on the timing of inklings.

That's not what I said.

What I said was, the damage that a blood clot or lesion causes the brain is reflected in the decline in motor action and cognitive function, and restoring function entails both physical intervention, clot busters, etc, and therapy in order to restore normal functions, which depending on the damage may or may not be possible, or perhaps only to a limited degree.

This is not a problem with the mind, which is an expression of a brain, but the state and condition of a brain at any given moment in time.

I don't need a bad lecture about what a stoke is. I have seen hundreds of people that have had strokes and worked with them to regain function.

And unless a person actively uses their mind they will not fully recover.

The brain heals whether a person actively uses their mind or not. But the return a person gets depends on how they use their mind.
 
The necessities to fully recover from a stroke are not cherry picking.

And those necessities include engaging the mind.

Because without the mind actively working to regain control return of control will be limited.

Clear evidence the mind has an active role.

Except maybe to those hopelessly lost in delusions based only on the timing of inklings.

That's not what I said.

What I said was, the damage that a blood clot or lesion causes the brain is reflected in the decline in motor action and cognitive function, and restoring function entails both physical intervention, clot busters, etc, and therapy in order to restore normal functions, which depending on the damage may or may not be possible, or perhaps only to a limited degree.

This is not a problem with the mind, which is an expression of a brain, but the state and condition of a brain at any given moment in time.

I don't need a bad lecture about what a stoke is. I have seen hundreds of people that have had strokes and worked with them to regain function.

And unless a person actively uses their mind they will not fully recover.

The brain heals whether a person actively uses their mind or not. But the return a person gets depends on how they use their mind.

Your claimed experience is not apparent in what you say about strokes, brain damage or the nature of mind. Read the literature, it does not agree with what you say. It is widely accepted that brain damage is the cause of mental decline, cognition, etc.

You are on your own.

A maverick with his own ideas.

Ideas that are not supported by research or evidence.
 
I don't need a bad lecture about what a stoke is. I have seen hundreds of people that have had strokes and worked with them to regain function.

And unless a person actively uses their mind they will not fully recover.

The brain heals whether a person actively uses their mind or not. But the return a person gets depends on how they use their mind.

Your claimed experience is not apparent in what you say about strokes, brain damage or the nature of mind.

Absolute and total bullshit.

You just don't like it.

You can't rehab a stroke patient by cuddling their brain.

You have to get the patient to actively use their mind to regain control.

Because the mind is what controls voluntary movement.

That is where the phrase comes from: VOLUNTARY movement, as opposed to reflexive movement, which is movement not directed by the mind.

I assure you I am not the first to use the phrase "voluntary movement".
 
I don't need a bad lecture about what a stoke is. I have seen hundreds of people that have had strokes and worked with them to regain function.

And unless a person actively uses their mind they will not fully recover.

The brain heals whether a person actively uses their mind or not. But the return a person gets depends on how they use their mind.

Your claimed experience is not apparent in what you say about strokes, brain damage or the nature of mind.

Absolute and total bullshit.

No, it's the truth. It is the brain damage brought about by clots, lesions, etc, that causes impairment, cognition, motor action, in the first place.


You just don't like it.

You can't rehab a stroke patient by cuddling their brain.

You have to get the patient to actively use their mind to regain control.

Because the mind is what controls voluntary movement.

That is where the phrase comes from: VOLUNTARY movement, as opposed to reflexive movement, which is movement not directed by the mind.

I assure you I am not the first to use the phrase "voluntary movement".

That is a perfect example of what I meant about your apparent lack of knowledge about brain damage and its consequences;



Effects of stroke

''The effects of stroke – how a stroke can affect you.

There are several factors that impact on recovery and the effects of stroke. These factors include:

Type of stroke
Location of the blocked or burst artery
Which area of the brain is damaged
How much brain tissue is permanently damaged
Your general health before the stroke Your level of activity before the stroke


The brain is divided into several areas that control different functions. These include how you move your body, receive sensory messages (such as touch, sight or smell), use language and think. Because different arteries supply different areas of the brain, where the brain is damaged will determine which functions are affected.

Every stroke is different. Each person affected by stroke will have different problems and different needs. The way in which you might be affected depends on where in the brain the stroke happens and how big the stroke is. A stroke on the right side of the brain generally causes problems on the left side of the body. A stroke on the left side of the brain causes problems on the right side of the body. Some strokes happen at the base of the brain and can cause problems with eating, breathing and moving.''

More generally;


Prefrontal Cortex damage:

''The 20-year-old female subject studied by Damasio et al. was intelligent and academically competent, but she stole from her family and other children, abused other people both verbally and physically, lied frequently, and was sexually promiscuous and completely lacking in empathy toward her illegitimate child. In addition, the researchers say, "She never expressed guilt or remorse for her misbehavior'' ''Both of the subjects performed well on measures of intellectual ability, but, like people with adult-onset prefrontal cortex damage, they were socially impaired, failed to consider future consequences when making decisions, and failed to respond normally to punishment or behavioral interventions. "Unlike adult-onset patients, however," the researchers say, "the two patients had defective social and moral reasoning, suggesting that the acquisition of complex social conventions and moral rules had been impaired." While adult-onset patients possess factual knowledge about social and moral rules (even though they often cannot follow these rules in real life), Damasio et al.'s childhood-onset subjects appeared unable to learn these rules at all. This may explain, the researchers say, why their childhood-onset subjects were much more antisocial, and showed less guilt and remorse, than subjects who suffered similar damage in adulthood.''
 
There is no getting past your filters.

What does any of that have to do with how a person recovers from a stroke?

Hint: They use their mind.
 
There is no getting past your filters.

What does any of that have to do with how a person recovers from a stroke?

Hint: They use their mind.

Hint; it is the condition of their brain that determines how well or how badly their mind functions.....if the damage is great enough, there is no functional mind.

You confuse the appearance or outward expression with agency. The sole agent of mind being the brain that is generating a mind, either in the form of recovery...or its decline.
 
What you are saying has no relevant content.

There are cases where people suffer strokes and lose the ability to use their mind to move their body.

Many times when a person that has suffered a stroke actively tries to move, yet no movement occurs, in time they are able to regain the connection between mind and movement.

To deny it is a reconnection between mind and movement is just laughable.

It is what somebody living in an ivory tower that doesn't actually have to help anyone or prove their nonsense might believe.
 
The necessities to fully recover from a stroke are not cherry picking.

And those necessities include engaging the mind.

Because without the mind actively working to regain control return of control will be limited.

Clear evidence the mind has an active role.

Except maybe to those hopelessly lost in delusions based only on the timing of inklings.

That's not what I said.

What I said was, the damage that a blood clot or lesion causes the brain is reflected in the decline in motor action and cognitive function, and restoring function entails both physical intervention, clot busters, etc, and therapy in order to restore normal functions, which depending on the damage may or may not be possible, or perhaps only to a limited degree.

This is not a problem with the mind, which is an expression of a brain, but the state and condition of a brain at any given moment in time.

I don't need a bad lecture about what a stoke is. I have seen hundreds of people that have had strokes and worked with them to regain function.

And unless a person actively uses their mind they will not fully recover.

The brain heals whether a person actively uses their mind or not. But the return a person gets depends on how they use their mind.

Brain function is plastic: sometimes we can regain function by using different, less damaged, parts of the brain.
 
Brain function is plastic: sometimes we can regain function by using different, less damaged, parts of the brain.

And you can see it.

The movement is abnormal.

But you don't regain it unless you use your mind and actively try to reconnect it to the body.
 
You clearly have no idea. You reject anything and everything that does not happen to coincide with your beliefs....

That's a joke.

I have 25 years of actually working with people, helping them slowly reconnect their mind to their body.

What do you have except your faith?

No study you can provide even knows what the mind is no less can say something about it.

Yet they all rely on the mind to supply subjective reports.
 
You clearly have no idea. You reject anything and everything that does not happen to coincide with your beliefs....

That's a joke.

I have 25 years of actually working with people, helping them slowly reconnect their mind to their body.

What do you have except your faith?

No study you can provide even knows what the mind is no less can say something about it.

Yet they all rely on the mind to supply subjective reports.

Since you haven't answered the bloow I'm repeating it.

That's either BS or untrue depending on how you roll. We can learn to experience in particular ways as many religions and psychic disciplines teach us. We wouldn't be able to run sensory experiments if humans were not experientially pliable. soi we don't have to know we just have to be taught or to discover. The BS comes from your demonstrated doctrinaire approach to the topic.

Oops. There goes a pillar.

We don't 'know' how an experience is generated in detail, yet we know enough about how they are generated to make use of that to control and guide what we experience. In many domain that would be called discipline. One can also understand how information is processed in humans well enough to determine where an experience can be unitary or generalized.

Let me explain. I conducted an experiment where I required observers to report when they could detect a gap between tones presented serially. the only way they could get there was to suspend disbelief enough to accept individual tones can coexist in sequences which is experientially impossible. Observers successfully achieved this task allowing me to write a paper about the shape and form of basic auditory processing at one ear. The theory explains why tones of different durations are perceptually treated separately from tones of equal duration. The of observed delay of perceiving a click in favor of tone of more or less equal duration for instance.

Humans favor coherent information processing the processing of speech over extraneous information processing of the radnom twig breaking is social situations. On the other hand humans at rest process clicks in preference to speech. It provides the first alert for awakening through the continued monitoring of sound during sleep through the auditory channel.

So we do know something about the conditions under which we experience.

Your don't know anything is cast aside.

Even if it weren't true that we know these things it is patently demonstrably false that we have to know anything to do something. Such rubbish. Really.​





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