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I lied to the police, had my wife arrested, saved my family. *Was I morally correct? *You judge

How many people on the streets are "messed up"? Do they survive? After a few days on the street, the hospital starts to look pretty cozy. Problem would have worked itself out either way.

And you're missing it even further by suggesting that knowing some Christians would help.

It isn't true? Church affiliation wouldn't help in a homeless situation? In America??? People catch a quick case of Religion when they go homeless. Then they're not homeless anymore. Because God.

This is someone too messed up to get help

This is an age of mental illness, Loren. Everyone has it. "Messed up" means what? Maybe someday there will be room in asylums for everyone, but for now there are rules for intake. Sally didn't meet the criteria. Whatever her name is. Talking about Harry's family is icky and I'm not doing it anymore. Make sure she takes those Goddamn pills, Harry. That is all anyone needs to say.

So, there are no more homeless people. Yay! That was really easy!

Your decision to not talk about it any more is a rational one as you have demonstrated an unwillingness to actually read what Harry has written about his wife and her condition.
 
I did read. She's paranoid. Needs antipsychotics obviously. Probably more than atypical ones. It makes no sense talking to keep talking about this. Harry is a human being and not something to whine about.
 
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How many people on the streets are "messed up"? Do they survive? After a few days on the street, the hospital starts to look pretty cozy. Problem would have worked itself out either way.

And you're missing it even further by suggesting that knowing some Christians would help.

It isn't true? Church affiliation wouldn't help in a homeless situation? In America??? People catch a quick case of Religion when they go homeless. Then they're not homeless anymore. Because God.

This is someone too messed up to get help

This is an age of mental illness, Loren. Everyone has it. "Messed up" means what? Maybe someday there will be room in asylums for everyone, but for now there are rules for intake. Sally didn't meet the criteria. Whatever her name is. Talking about Harry's family is icky and I'm not doing it anymore. Make sure she takes those Goddamn pills, Harry. That is all anyone needs to say.

You don't seem to understand that there are degrees to mental illness.
 
[ENT][/ENT]
How many people on the streets are "messed up"? Do they survive? After a few days on the street, the hospital starts to look pretty cozy. Problem would have worked itself out either way.



It isn't true? Church affiliation wouldn't help in a homeless situation? In America??? People catch a quick case of Religion when they go homeless. Then they're not homeless anymore. Because God.

This is someone too messed up to get help

This is an age of mental illness, Loren. Everyone has it. "Messed up" means what? Maybe someday there will be room in asylums for everyone, but for now there are rules for intake. Sally didn't meet the criteria. Whatever her name is. Talking about Harry's family is icky and I'm not doing it anymore. Make sure she takes those Goddamn pills, Harry. That is all anyone needs to say.

You don't seem to understand that there are degrees to mental illness.

Actually for it to qualify as "Mental illness" It needs to be disruptive to your daily life. So really there's only one degree. "Mentally ill" and "Not mentally ill" In fact, this obtuse classification is exactly the problem some people have here.
 
[ENT][/ENT]
How many people on the streets are "messed up"? Do they survive? After a few days on the street, the hospital starts to look pretty cozy. Problem would have worked itself out either way.



It isn't true? Church affiliation wouldn't help in a homeless situation? In America??? People catch a quick case of Religion when they go homeless. Then they're not homeless anymore. Because God.

This is someone too messed up to get help

This is an age of mental illness, Loren. Everyone has it. "Messed up" means what? Maybe someday there will be room in asylums for everyone, but for now there are rules for intake. Sally didn't meet the criteria. Whatever her name is. Talking about Harry's family is icky and I'm not doing it anymore. Make sure she takes those Goddamn pills, Harry. That is all anyone needs to say.

You don't seem to understand that there are degrees to mental illness.

Actually for it to qualify as "Mental illness" It needs to be disruptive to your daily life. So really there's only one degree. "Mentally ill" and "Not mentally ill" In fact, this obtuse classification is exactly the problem some people have here.

But there are still degrees of mental illness.
 
[ENT][/ENT]
How many people on the streets are "messed up"? Do they survive? After a few days on the street, the hospital starts to look pretty cozy. Problem would have worked itself out either way.



It isn't true? Church affiliation wouldn't help in a homeless situation? In America??? People catch a quick case of Religion when they go homeless. Then they're not homeless anymore. Because God.

This is someone too messed up to get help

This is an age of mental illness, Loren. Everyone has it. "Messed up" means what? Maybe someday there will be room in asylums for everyone, but for now there are rules for intake. Sally didn't meet the criteria. Whatever her name is. Talking about Harry's family is icky and I'm not doing it anymore. Make sure she takes those Goddamn pills, Harry. That is all anyone needs to say.

You don't seem to understand that there are degrees to mental illness.

Actually for it to qualify as "Mental illness" It needs to be disruptive to your daily life. So really there's only one degree. "Mentally ill" and "Not mentally ill" In fact, this obtuse classification is exactly the problem some people have here.

WTAF?

What an idiotic assumption. I have a "Mental illness" called depression and it is managed through medication. Several things can throw off that medication - such as other medications for pain relief. And while, sometimes, it disrupts my daily life, for a day or two - it doesn't stop me from living my life! And functioning within it!

Plenty of people can lead functioning lives with 'Mental illness'!

And one more thing - if I was going off the rails, which I have done in recent years thank you very much, and which people on here know about, I would be, and was, 100% glad that my husband was there to convince me to seek help when I needed it as I was NOT in a fit state to recognise just how sick I was.

There is a lot more I want to say, but don't want to get a red mark against my name for saying exactly what I think of your idiotic assumptions and statements.
 
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How many people on the streets are "messed up"? Do they survive? After a few days on the street, the hospital starts to look pretty cozy. Problem would have worked itself out either way.



It isn't true? Church affiliation wouldn't help in a homeless situation? In America??? People catch a quick case of Religion when they go homeless. Then they're not homeless anymore. Because God.

This is someone too messed up to get help

This is an age of mental illness, Loren. Everyone has it. "Messed up" means what? Maybe someday there will be room in asylums for everyone, but for now there are rules for intake. Sally didn't meet the criteria. Whatever her name is. Talking about Harry's family is icky and I'm not doing it anymore. Make sure she takes those Goddamn pills, Harry. That is all anyone needs to say.

You don't seem to understand that there are degrees to mental illness.

Actually for it to qualify as "Mental illness" It needs to be disruptive to your daily life. So really there's only one degree. "Mentally ill" and "Not mentally ill" In fact, this obtuse classification is exactly the problem some people have here.

You are incorrect. There are many degrees of severity to mental illnesses, and many mental illnesses. Within any mental illness are varying degrees of the ability to control the illness. Many/most people with depression respond well to one of the various antidepressant medications available, with or without therapy, although there is some data that suggests therapy is very helpful. OCD, anxiety are two other brain diseases which have a wide range of severity. Some such as bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia have some variation in how well they respond to current treatment regimes.
 
Assuming what you've said is fully truthful, then you did the right thing, which sometimes involves not only lying but violating the law, which is necessarily too general to be a valid guide for proper behavior in all situations.

BTW, what is her clinical diagnosis? Schizophrenia?


Was it more convenient than delivering an ultimatum of having her commit herself or do one or all of the above?


It isn't simply a matter of convenience. It is a matter of caring for a loved one and protecting his kids. Your proposed alternatives would still leave her suffering from what sounds like very serious clinical psychosis and the kind of paranoia and delusions that made her a plausible danger to herself and her kids. What he described sound very much like the kind of person that winds up driving their kids into lake. If the medical professional actually did know he was lying and went along with it, its because they thought she was this level of dangerous but couldn't legally commit her without the kind of evidence that could mean its too late and she already hurt someone. Harry might not even agree that she was that dangerous to the kids because he loves her and its hard to see a loved one capable of such things until after they actually do it. But what he described sounds like the kind of problem that can and does lead people down a rabbit hole of delusion and fear where what is a grossly immoral act to the sane mind seems like an act of love to the insane mind.


Why do you suppose the law is crafted that way in the first place?
As Keith pointed out, as is common, these laws are an unreasoned over-reaction to previous abuses where people were committed without legit medical reasons and without valid clinical diagnoses of severe mental health problems (such as for being gay or merely non-conformist). The mental health profession has advance much since then and such abuses would be are far less likely now and far easier to expose them when they occur.

Her choices and decision making power were removed because you lied.

True, but "her choices" were already removed from her ability to make them in own rational self-interest by a mental disease that made rational thought impossible for her. His actions to temporarily remove her self-determination gave long term control and self-determination back to her rational mind.

While the outcome this time was justified, would you generally condone this type of behavior in others - in other situations?

Mature and reasonable morality is inherently situational and highly contextual. Whether this "type of behavior" would be condoned in other situations isn't very relevant to whether it was moral in this situation. In contrast, the law is necessarily general and for practical reasons cannot specify all situations where it ideally and morally should and should not apply. That is why what the law should say and what is moral in a given situation are always two separate questions that sometimes have the same answer and sometimes not.
Even if she never forgave him or never get better enough to understand that she had an illness, he would still have done the right thing.
Had she not improved and they continued to keep here solely because of his lie then it might have been morally neccessary to come clean about it, but not in a way that would send him to jail and leave his kids with no father and in the care of a mentally unstable mother.

A final thought is that the morality of such an action is directly dependent on the rationality of the actors thinking that leads to their conclusions supporting the action. It was moral only if the conclusion that she was a danger to herself and others was rationally based and supported by as much science as possible. This is why rational thinking is itself a moral requirement and really part of the foundation of all moral action. Although, rational thought is neccessary but insufficient to alone dictate what is moral because all morality is ultimately based on optimizing what is subjectively valued (e.g.., life, health, fair-treatment, liberty). That is why a religious person who lies to commit a gay person based on the belief they will go to hell if not "cured" is not the same and is being highly immoral in their actions, because their motivating belief is not only objectively wrong but irrational and not based on the person's best honest effort to form accurate beliefs when acting to impact others. Irrational beliefs are a selfish act of cowardice, thus all actions they drive are acts of selfish cowardice and thus immoral when the lead to objective harm to others.
 
Regarding what the law should be, it comes down to how rational and science-based the conclusions are that the person is suffering from a severe treatable illness.
The mental health profession has advanced greatly. There is still plenty of pseudo-science quackery being practiced by private therapist charlatans. But scientific advancements, especially in understanding the neurology entailed in severe mental illness makes rational science-based conclusions possible, and the oversight and transparency in facilities that treat such illnesses make the abuses of the past much less likely. That said, this is another of the many situations where profit motive is contrary to the public interest, and like prisons, all facilities where people can be kept against their will (whether initially self-committed or not) must be public and non-profit. No one near the decisions should be able to make any money based upon more admittances or longer stays.

Also, the criteria for getting a person committed should probably vary somewhat with the length of time they can be committed for.
IOW, we shouldn't wait for a person to actually harm someone to commit them for a short term, after which they are released whether they are "better" or not. But longer forced stays should require greater certainty of danger perhaps including the definitive certainty that comes with the person having already done harm.

The kind of severe illnesses that warrant commitments are virtually all biologically based and not merely the result of experiences. That means that the science related to the diagnosis, threat-assessments, and treatment of these illnesses is and will advance rapidly, since it can be based on more rigorous scientific methods than our understanding of less severe mental health issues tied more to experiences and treated more by talk-therapy than medicine. These advances will allow for more certainty in threat assessments and thus allow for reasonable laws for committing a person before its too late.

Of course such advancements are certain to be greatly stalled or even put in reverse by the Trump administration and the rabid anti-science religious nutjobs he is planning to install as the heads of the NIMH, NSF, and other organizations critical to the funding and implementation of mental health science.

Just another of the countless harms to society that all the non-voting false equivalency Bern victims should hate themselves for.
 
I would have likely made the same decision as you. Mental illness is always a tricky one, because the laws/rules are made as if the sufferer actually has some 'control' over their actions/behavior. They don't. Obviously the severity of an illness is going to come into play but it sounds as if she was not in her right mind at the time and you did what was needed to get her help/treatment. I cannot fault you for lying to a system that really isn't set up soundly - but I'm the first to admit, that I don't know what that would/should look like.

An anorexic can NOT eat. It's not will power or vanity. It's a brain disorder. Should they be committed with a feeding tube?
A paranoid schizophrenic cannot always discern reality from delusions. Should they be involuntarily committed if the delusions are harmful to themselves OR OTHERS?
A depressed person may be suicidal - Should they be committed to help them with the depression (and by extension the suicidal ideation)?
 
Adding to my above verbosity, another way to think about this is that you usurped your wife's self-determination, much like all parents, society, and the law does to kids all the time in ways we find unacceptable to do to an adult. That sounds bad, but it isn't. Your reason for doing so was because, like children, she was not capable of making rational choices in her own self interest, so you protect them by over-riding their choices. In fact, it sounds like she was in a state that made her even less capable than an average 5 year old of making choices that would keep her or others out of danger. The reason why she was not capable is obviously different than why children are not capable (lack of knowledge and development of reasoning skills), but that doesn't make the analogy invalid regarding the moral justification of thwarting a person's free will.
 
That she spent three months in a hospital to get back into her right mind indicates there was really no less moral of a choice to have been made. She desperately needed help and you sacrificed your own honesty to see that she got it.
 
I've worked in a Psychiatric Crisis Center as an Advocate and was in hospital for similar issues several times, each time knowing I had no way around it even when not a danger to myself or others. I've seen on both sides of the coin the many pitfalls and failures of the system itself and currently am dealing with ins issues to keep up with it all.

To say that what you dealt with was difficult is as much an understatement as it is to say that the system is now perfect just because we no longer forcibly commit homosexuals since there's nothing wrong with it. To answer your question, I do not think it was wrong in that you had a good justification. Is it immoral to lie? Yeah, but with justification it becomes an immoral act for a good reason. The danger with being so reasonable is when others use it as an excuse to again try to commit people that do not belong in a hospital simply because the person or group doing the committing finds the behavior or thoughts of the committed person "icky". I refrain from any scientific terms because so much of our behavior or thoughts, to someone else, is "icky" without it harming or even threatening to cause harm to anyone.

Bottom line, you had the right reason to do the wrong thing, and I wouldn't think doing it again if necessary would be fully wrong either.
 
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