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I lied to the police, had my wife arrested, saved my family. *Was I morally correct? *You judge

I'd like to first that I admire you for staying with your very sick wife all this time. It takes a strong, dedicated person to do that. Secondly, I think you made the best decision considering the very undesirable choices that you were given by this difficult situation you were faced with.

I'm not a moral absolutist and I'm not even sure that we have much in the way of free will, so I'm quite astonished that some would use that argument to criticize your decision. I am a professional nurse with over forty years of experience, and many of my former and present patients suffer from many different types and degrees of mental illness. I prefer the term "brain diseases," because we now know thanks to modern technology that there is evidence from brain scans and MRIs that with these diseases, the brain is actually impaired just like the heart is impaired when one has heart disease. People that suffer from psychosis, that often includes a wide variety of delusions are not capable of making their own decisions when it comes to many things. It's extremely common for people that suffer from bipolar disorder, especially if they are manic and delusional to reject their medications. I've seen this countless times and the outcome made by these decisions always exacerbate the disease, sometimes resulting in hospitalization. You were obviously between a rock and hard place when it came to what to do about your wife's illness.

While I blame no one here for their lack of experience in this field, I do think allowing your wife to become homeless would have been cruel. She may not have survived very long as a victim of homelessness and it certainly would have had a negative impact on the emotional well being of your children. While I understand your frustration, you made the right choice by not allowing that outcome.

There are times when we must do things that may have seemed morally wrong in another situation. You did what you had to do in order to preserve your family and your wife's health. There really was no other thing you could have done that would have resulted in a better outcome. My father was bipolar although he never suffered from psychosis, his illness was always a challenge for my mother and his children.

Let me share a story that happened to me many years ago, when I had to tell a little lie to get a patient help. I had a sweet little patient that rarely ever left her room and spent most of her day in a hospital bed. One day when I was visiting her ( I was her home health nurse ), I realized she had been experiencing hallucinations and delusions. She lived with a sister who was in her 90s, so she couldn't do much to help. It happened well over 30 years ago, so I don't remember exactly what I told her, but I do remember promising her I was merely sending her out for an evaluation at a local private mental health hospital. I knew damn well that this hospital would not keep a dependent lady with open wounds and a indwelling catheter, but I had to get her help so I told her what I needed to in order for her to get help. As I expected, she ended up in the state mental ward after an evaluation. Then one day, I got a phone call at work. It was my patient, who had called me from her hospital bed to thank me for sending her to the hospital. Apparently, she was now lucid but realized she had been heading toward a psychotic breakdown. I was delighted at her progress and happily surprised that she wanted to thank me for doing something I knew she would have never agreed to at the time.

Let me add that I hope you and your family will continue to grow more unified and that your wife will be easier to persuade in the future if she stops taking her medications or if her medications aren't working and she needs an assessment and med. adjustment. This has been an interesting discussion. I hope you feel good about your decision. You made the correct decision. I'd go as far as to say it was the only morally correct thing you could have done at the time.
 
Harry you still haven't mentioned her diagnoses or behaviors. I'm let to think the worst. I've seen the worst so I understand no matter what but yeah maybe you could go ionto some detail. It has gone this far so why not. Save it for tomnorrow actually because today is a special day for etc and good foods.

If her actions weren't a major problem the docs wouldn't have gone along with the deception. They knew he was doing the right thing.
 
While I certainly sympathize with Harry's situation - it was a tough decision to make - wouldn't have taking the kids, and leaving her homeless have accomplished the same thing? On the streets without meds or proper care, she would have eventually become a danger to herself, leading to institutionalization without needing to lie to the cops and the doctors?

No. For one thing, it would have been traumatic for the children, plus the logistics would be a nightmare, with 3 school age children and I am assuming, not infinite resources.

How is leaving her homeless any more traumatic than what they are going through now?

The homeless thing is a means to an end. A legal one.

It would not have been a permanent thing.

- - - Updated - - -

While I certainly sympathize with Harry's situation - it was a tough decision to make - wouldn't have taking the kids, and leaving her homeless have accomplished the same thing? On the streets without meds or proper care, she would have eventually become a danger to herself, leading to institutionalization without needing to lie to the cops and the doctors?

As I see it she would have been a danger to herself immediately if she were on the streets.

Exactly. Then the same ending would have resulted without cops and doctors and Harry himself having had to compromise themselves, their professions and their oaths.
 
If her actions weren't a major problem the docs wouldn't have gone along with the deception. They knew he was doing the right thing.

If her actions were that major of a problem - there would be no need for Harry's deception. I have trouble believing that the entire staff went along with the lie - when they have to turn people away every day because of no open beds. People who could KILL, Loren. TURNED AWAY.

BTW, Harry, if she really wants to stick it to you - she can. Where did you get your stitches put in? Any record of that? What all have you said on the phone? You may be screwed already.

The way you're going on, Harry, it seems like you're either waiting for someone to tear you apart (because you know you deserve it), or you're looking for the justification you feel that you deserve. It looks like your friends have taken care of the latter.
 
I prefer the term "brain diseases," because we now know thanks to modern technology that there is evidence from brain scans and MRIs that with these diseases, the brain is actually impaired just like the heart is impaired when one has heart disease. People that suffer from psychosis, that often includes a wide variety of delusions are not capable of making their own decisions when it comes to many things. It's extremely common for people that suffer from bipolar disorder, especially if they are manic and delusional to reject their medications. I've seen this countless times and the outcome made by these decisions always exacerbate the disease, sometimes resulting in hospitalization. You were obviously between a rock and hard place when it came to what to do about your wife's illness.
That is exactly what happens. Saving the life of someone with a "brain disease" - thank-you for that - is no different than saving the life of someone with heart disease or any other life threatening condition. To not see that is simply the result of not having lived the experience.

And the passing of time presents new challenges, new worries. It doesn't really ever stop. It's not like a femur that mends. It's still there every day and it really takes a tough person - and persons - to make it work.
 
i had this shithead alcoholic narcissistic bf who tried to have me arrested. he snuck off into the bathroom and called the popo, but i knew what he was up to. when he came out, i got his aluminum baseball bat and beat the bloody hell out of his sorry ass. then i knelt on his chest so he couldn't breathe and said, 'when the cops get here, you'll tell them you were drunk and on painkillers so you fell down the stairs and i dragged you into the apartment. anything else and i will execute your ass'. mf did it, too.

nb - this guy was a massively evil human being. if you've ever seen 'shameless', he's frank. even looks like him
 
i had this shithead alcoholic narcissistic bf who tried to have me arrested. he snuck off into the bathroom and called the popo, but i knew what he was up to. when he came out, i got his aluminum baseball bat and beat the bloody hell out of his sorry ass. then i knelt on his chest so he couldn't breathe and said, 'when the cops get here, you'll tell them you were drunk and on painkillers so you fell down the stairs and i dragged you into the apartment. anything else and i will execute your ass'. mf did it, too.

nb - this guy was a massively evil human being. if you've ever seen 'shameless', he's frank. even looks like him

You did a very stupid thing.
 
Harry you still haven't mentioned her diagnoses or behaviors. I'm let to think the worst. I've seen the worst so I understand no matter what but yeah maybe you could go ionto some detail. It has gone this far so why not. Save it for tomnorrow actually because today is a special day for etc and good foods.

My wife has been diagnosed as bi-polar/OCD. But she also hears voices and is severely delusional at times. Her delusion included thinking that I was trying to have her murdered and wanted to steal her money. She also believed that aliens from another planet were following her. She thought that this put her in great danger. And that it threatened our kids. Her being around our kids put them in danger. So she wanted the kids out of the house, away from her. I don't have to tell any parent reading this how destructive this was.

My wife is a great person, loved by everyone when she's healthy. She's very kind and generous with everyone. She wouldn't last 2 hours on the streets. It would be a death sentence to her. I doubt that the people claiming that she's better off living in the streets have had to experience these issues.
 
If her actions weren't a major problem the docs wouldn't have gone along with the deception. They knew he was doing the right thing.

If her actions were that major of a problem - there would be no need for Harry's deception. I have trouble believing that the entire staff went along with the lie - when they have to turn people away every day because of no open beds. People who could KILL, Loren. TURNED AWAY.

BTW, Harry, if she really wants to stick it to you - she can. Where did you get your stitches put in? Any record of that? What all have you said on the phone? You may be screwed already.

The way you're going on, Harry, it seems like you're either waiting for someone to tear you apart (because you know you deserve it), or you're looking for the justification you feel that you deserve. It looks like your friends have taken care of the latter.

Again, I don't think that you have much experience in this. I probably would have agreed with you if it hadn't happened to me. Let me be clear, the entire staff (several doctors, nurses, police officer, her mom, her sisters, everyone agreed with me). I'm sorry, but I don't need your justification. If someone wants to try to throw me in jail over this, fine, have at it.
 
I'd like to first that I admire you for staying with your very sick wife all this time. It takes a strong, dedicated person to do that. Secondly, I think you made the best decision considering the very undesirable choices that you were given by this difficult situation you were faced with.

I'm not a moral absolutist and I'm not even sure that we have much in the way of free will, so I'm quite astonished that some would use that argument to criticize your decision. I am a professional nurse with over forty years of experience, and many of my former and present patients suffer from many different types and degrees of mental illness. I prefer the term "brain diseases," because we now know thanks to modern technology that there is evidence from brain scans and MRIs that with these diseases, the brain is actually impaired just like the heart is impaired when one has heart disease. People that suffer from psychosis, that often includes a wide variety of delusions are not capable of making their own decisions when it comes to many things. It's extremely common for people that suffer from bipolar disorder, especially if they are manic and delusional to reject their medications. I've seen this countless times and the outcome made by these decisions always exacerbate the disease, sometimes resulting in hospitalization. You were obviously between a rock and hard place when it came to what to do about your wife's illness.

While I blame no one here for their lack of experience in this field, I do think allowing your wife to become homeless would have been cruel. She may not have survived very long as a victim of homelessness and it certainly would have had a negative impact on the emotional well being of your children. While I understand your frustration, you made the right choice by not allowing that outcome.

There are times when we must do things that may have seemed morally wrong in another situation. You did what you had to do in order to preserve your family and your wife's health. There really was no other thing you could have done that would have resulted in a better outcome. My father was bipolar although he never suffered from psychosis, his illness was always a challenge for my mother and his children.

Let me share a story that happened to me many years ago, when I had to tell a little lie to get a patient help. I had a sweet little patient that rarely ever left her room and spent most of her day in a hospital bed. One day when I was visiting her ( I was her home health nurse ), I realized she had been experiencing hallucinations and delusions. She lived with a sister who was in her 90s, so she couldn't do much to help. It happened well over 30 years ago, so I don't remember exactly what I told her, but I do remember promising her I was merely sending her out for an evaluation at a local private mental health hospital. I knew damn well that this hospital would not keep a dependent lady with open wounds and a indwelling catheter, but I had to get her help so I told her what I needed to in order for her to get help. As I expected, she ended up in the state mental ward after an evaluation. Then one day, I got a phone call at work. It was my patient, who had called me from her hospital bed to thank me for sending her to the hospital. Apparently, she was now lucid but realized she had been heading toward a psychotic breakdown. I was delighted at her progress and happily surprised that she wanted to thank me for doing something I knew she would have never agreed to at the time.

Let me add that I hope you and your family will continue to grow more unified and that your wife will be easier to persuade in the future if she stops taking her medications or if her medications aren't working and she needs an assessment and med. adjustment. This has been an interesting discussion. I hope you feel good about your decision. You made the correct decision. I'd go as far as to say it was the only morally correct thing you could have done at the time.

Thank you for your comments! Yes, I'll use brain disease from now on. I think that the problem that I'm getting from some is that they don't understand that it really is a medical problem. It's a chemical imbalance. It's no different than Alzheimer's or something related. How many people would allow their grandma to become homeless due to Alzheimer's if there was an alternative.
 
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No. For one thing, it would have been traumatic for the children, plus the logistics would be a nightmare, with 3 school age children and I am assuming, not infinite resources.

How is leaving her homeless any more traumatic than what they are going through now?

Are you fucking kidding? Hospitalized, she is safe, warm, fed and most importantly getting much needed treatment. On the streets, not only would she have none of these things but the family would have no idea where she was, and she would be in serious danger of assault, tape, robbery, exploitation of all kinds, oncarceration, not to mention disease, malnutrition, frostbite! even death. None of that would move her closer to 'deciding' to get help because in that state, 'deciding' is a meaningless idea. None of that would have made her, Harry or their children better off but instead would have caused greater harm. Much greater harm. It isn't as though Harry had her locked up forever.

The homeless thing is a means to an end. A legal one.

You are misinformed, ignorant and delusional if you believe that.

It would not have been a permanent thing.



Exactly. Then the same ending would have resulted without cops and doctors and Harry himself having had to compromise themselves, their professions and their oaths.


You are ignorant, misinformed and delusional if you believe that. Most of the homeless are seriously mentally ill. They are often victimized, mistreated and abused by --everyone! Including the police.
 
i had this shithead alcoholic narcissistic bf who tried to have me arrested. he snuck off into the bathroom and called the popo, but i knew what he was up to. when he came out, i got his aluminum baseball bat and beat the bloody hell out of his sorry ass. then i knelt on his chest so he couldn't breathe and said, 'when the cops get here, you'll tell them you were drunk and on painkillers so you fell down the stairs and i dragged you into the apartment. anything else and i will execute your ass'. mf did it, too.

nb - this guy was a massively evil human being. if you've ever seen 'shameless', he's frank. even looks like him

I think that some are opposed to my actions thinking that it would be easy to exploit someone. Just make up a story, get someone committed; get control of their money, or whatever. Believe me, it's extremely difficult to get someone committed (for good reason). For one, there aren't enough beds. There's no way that a healthy person would stay long in a psyche ward against their will if they can identify any competency.
 
How is leaving her homeless any more traumatic than what they are going through now?

Are you fucking kidding? Hospitalized, she is safe, warm, fed and most importantly getting much needed treatment.

Not her. The KIDS. I thought that is who you were speaking of. That's who I was speaking of.

She is so off her rocker, being homeless wouldn't have made much impact. You read Harry's description of her symptoms. She thought she was in Murderland, about to be taken over by aliens. A trip to the streets is not going to make that any worse and may have made her feel better since she would no longer be restrained.

On the streets, not only would she have none of these things but the family would have no idea where she was

That's assuming the family wouldn't don't have her followed or checked on her regularly.

and she would be in serious danger of assault, tape, robbery, exploitation of all kinds, oncarceration, not to mention disease, malnutrition, frostbite! even death.

Hence the 'temporary' situation. You seem to think I mean leaving her on the streets for months. Hon, she's already a danger to herself. She might be on the streets for a day or two - at most! - before she could be classified a danger to herself and legally locked up.
 
Are you fucking kidding? Hospitalized, she is safe, warm, fed and most importantly getting much needed treatment.

Not her. The KIDS. I thought that is who you were speaking of. That's who I was speaking of.

She is so off her rocker, being homeless wouldn't have made much impact. You read Harry's description of her symptoms. She thought she was in Murderland, about to be taken over by aliens. A trip to the streets is not going to make that any worse and may have made her feel better since she would no longer be restrained.

On the streets, not only would she have none of these things but the family would have no idea where she was

That's assuming the family wouldn't don't have her followed or checked on her regularly.

and she would be in serious danger of assault, tape, robbery, exploitation of all kinds, oncarceration, not to mention disease, malnutrition, frostbite! even death.

Hence the 'temporary' situation. You seem to think I mean leaving her on the streets for months. Hon, she's already a danger to herself. She might be on the streets for a day or two - at most! - before she could be classified a danger to herself and legally locked up.

Her kids are better off if she's getting treatment. Her kids are better off if she's safe. The kids are better off if they know where she is.

I have no idea why you think she--or anybody! Would be better off homeless. What? Do you think that after a few nights or weeks or months she would decide that it sucked and then she'd agree to treatment? Her mental state was such that her thought processes were not rational. On the street, her mental condition would only deteriorate. Untreated it is impossible to discount the very real potential of great physical harm coming to her, her kids and possibly even Harry.

I've been in the position of having to make decisions for peopled I loved very deeply when they were not able to make decisions for themselves. It is not trivial or easy or anything less than heartbreaking. It is not Harry's fault that the system is such that the only way he could get his wife the help she needed was to lie. It is not his wife's fault that she suffers from a brain disease that interferes with her ability to reason or make rational decisions. It is not her fault nor is it Zharry's that the disease process is such that as her condition improves she begins to believe that she doesn't require the meds. No one likes to be on antipsychotic meds! When rational, she'd never consider any of the crazy things running around in her brain to be true.
 
To state the obvious, people with mental illness are not always in a position to make rational decisions, hence may display self destructive behaviour that effects both their own welfare and those closest to them.
 
Thank you for your comments! Yes, I'll use brain disease from now on. I think that the problem that I'm getting from some is that they don't understand that it really is a medical problem. It's a chemical imbalance. It's no different than Alzheimer's or something related. How many people would allow their grandma to become homeless due to Alzheimer's if there was an alternative.
And it is unfortunate that our choices are so limited, that we have to resort to being clever and doing things that are illegal in order to help someone with this medical condition, including the way HIPAA works.

I was not on a list of contacts so I had to find people that would help me get information illegally, people who literally risked their jobs to help, people who would have gone to jail for disclosing information. Nurses who would access records illegally and lawyers who literally helped me badger people into obtaining information, threatening legal action however they could. There was no other choice. Call the hospital and be told, "We can neither confirm nor deny this person is a patient." It was some kind of surreal insanity.

When those things happen you learn who your friends are and who the smart, intelligent people are. I did not encounter anyone who would not help me once they were able to appreciate the situation. You end up deciding to take secrets to your grave because there is no other choice except to let the person self-destruct with the illness.

Today I am able to recognize this behavior in people and families. What is heartbreaking is to see families with this situation who do not know it is a brain disease. They don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. They've never lived it before and it's not something obvious like a broken leg. The person was never diagnosed and maybe ends up committing suicide after trying every drug they could get their hands on. It's safe to say that we as a society are ignorant when it comes to recognizing and treating this condition, and that is sad. We did much better in the past, despite the failures.
 
Actually I've been in that exact situation and I chose not to lie, Harry. Yet I had no biological children of my own involved. Oh and we were handfasted, not married - so I had no legal power. Still, I could have lied to her parents via Skype, and gotten myself a decent little vacation from the life I chose. So yeah, I can't judge you on any of this, but I can point out a misconception you may want to check. Homelessness is not death. If you have a pulse - you have a home. You get what I'm saying, right? Especially in Washington or wherever you're at. We're not talking about throwing her into a Sarajevo alley full of vicious dogs. You'd be surprised what people will do for you when you're down and out. Especially if you know some Christians.

I'm done talking about this now Harry but last thing I'll tell you is this... Rig up an Alexa machine to work with a pill doser. Program it to remind her in forceful ways. Program it to set off alarms, taunt her, summon authorities... whatever necessary. That invention may not exist yet but I'm sure you can figure out a system. The problem is keeping her on the medicine. You're probably being pretty honest about most of this, so good luck to your kids , man. And you too, I guess.
 
Actually I've been in that exact situation and I chose not to lie, Harry. Yet I had no biological children of my own involved. Oh and we were handfasted, not married - so I had no legal power. Still, I could have lied to her parents via Skype, and gotten myself a decent little vacation from the life I chose. So yeah, I can't judge you on any of this, but I can point out a misconception you may want to check. Homelessness is not death. If you have a pulse - you have a home. You get what I'm saying, right? Especially in Washington or wherever you're at. We're not talking about throwing her into a Sarajevo alley full of vicious dogs. You'd be surprised what people will do for you when you're down and out. Especially if you know some Christians.

I'm done talking about this now Harry but last thing I'll tell you is this... Rig up an Alexa machine to work with a pill doser. Program it to remind her in forceful ways. Program it to set off alarms, taunt her, summon authorities... whatever necessary. That invention may not exist yet but I'm sure you can figure out a system. The problem is keeping her on the medicine. You're probably being pretty honest about most of this, so good luck to your kids , man. And you too, I guess.

Have you not followed how messed up in the head she is? Think someone like that could survive on the streets?

And you're missing it even further by suggesting that knowing some Christians would help. This is someone too messed up to get help!
 
Have you not followed how messed up in the head she is? Think someone like that could survive on the streets?

How many people on the streets are "messed up"? Do they survive? After a few days on the street, the hospital starts to look pretty cozy. Problem would have worked itself out either way.

And you're missing it even further by suggesting that knowing some Christians would help.

It isn't true? Church affiliation wouldn't help in a homeless situation? In America??? People catch a quick case of Religion when they go homeless. Then they're not homeless anymore. Because God.

This is someone too messed up to get help

This is an age of mental illness, Loren. Everyone has it. "Messed up" means what? Maybe someday there will be room in asylums for everyone, but for now there are rules for intake. Sally didn't meet the criteria. Whatever her name is. Talking about Harry's family is icky and I'm not doing it anymore. Make sure she takes those Goddamn pills, Harry. That is all anyone needs to say.
 
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