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I think we can make the positive claim that nothing like 'gods' exist

I'm not their lawyer, and I'm not defending them.
I bet the inaptly named ‘Learner’ and his ilk don’t agree with you.
Let them try. Let them wander down that dark and shady cul-de-sac with a single lone figure sharpening an axe named "Occam's razor" next to a gun named "An Ethically Devoid Creator In Flesh" and a lone route of linear egress called "Simulation Mechanics" and their faith will come see injuries that it cannot be dealt with mere "absence of evidence".

We may never be able to get them to believe such do not exist on the absence of evidence... But we can use living, visible proof of asshole "'creator gods' of simulations" and logical proof from the laws of physics that all active creation can only be simulation to prove as utter nonsense their claims of necessity of ANY such deity's "perfection".

It proves any and all "possible" gods to be ethically suspect.
 
To say it reasonable to conclude there is no god based on what one knows of science and from observation is one thing.

To say science knows everything, scientific theories prove no god exists, and theories directly preclude existence of a god, therefore god can not exis is onother thing entirely. That opens a deep rabbit hole.

This confirms my belief atheists can be as irrational on religion as theists.

People invoke science much as Christians invoke god. Science is this and science is that withiut ever atricualting waht sciince IS and what ic theories are involved.

The reality is many base their image of 'science' from science fiction literature,TV, and movies.


As the old burger commercial went 'Where's the beef?'. As in specific science that says a god can not exist. Not 'science says'.

If a theist in an argument says 'the bible says' us atheists ask for chapter and verse and we begin to pick it apart.

Science 'chapter and verse' if you please.




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To say science knows everything, scientific theories prove no god exists, and theories directly preclude existence of a god, therefore god can not exis is onother thing entirely.
But to say science knows enough, scientific theories prove no god exists, and theories directly preclude the existence of a god, therefore god can not exist, is the simple truth.

Your strawman is noted, again, and ignored, again.
 
To say science knows everything, scientific theories prove no god exists, and theories directly preclude existence of a god, therefore god can not exis is onother thing entirely.
Will not listen to the facts and evidence presented? Check.
Keeps repeating strawman arguments like a mantra? Check.

Learner, is that you? How did you get into Steve's account?
 
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To say science knows everything, scientific theories prove no god exists, and theories directly preclude existence of a god, therefore god can not exis is onother thing entirely.
Will not listen to the facts and evidence presented? Check.
Keeps repeating strawman arguments like a mantra? Check.

Learner, is that you? How did you get into Steve's account?

I like that side of you, I give you a like for the wit lol.
 
I'm not their lawyer, and I'm not defending them.
I bet the inaptly named ‘Learner’ and his ilk don’t agree with you.
Not sure I'd hire him to defend me, to be honest. The prosecutor, the otherside, would have kinder things to say in comparison, about me and my ilk.
Indeed they would.

I reveal your "god" to be no more morally authoritative than a human video gamer, even assuming you were to be able to prove it exists at all which you can't and won't.

It means while you're busy looking for invisible pink unicorns to show me, I can be out living my life and not even caring ethically whether you find any, because it does not in any way impact my ethics.

The only real impact it would have is whether I have to figure out how to make invisible pink glue.
 
I'm not their lawyer, and I'm not defending them.
I bet the inaptly named ‘Learner’ and his ilk don’t agree with you.
Not sure I'd hire him to defend me, to be honest. The prosecutor, the otherside, would have kinder things to say in comparison, about me and my ilk.
Indeed they would.

I reveal your "god" to be no more morally authoritative than a human video gamer, even assuming you were to be able to prove it exists at all which you can't and won't.
Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology. Your're looking into a deep dark well, hoping to catch a little light reflecting from a few coins that maybe at the bottom.

It means while you're busy looking for invisible pink unicorns to show me, I can be out living my life and not even caring ethically whether you find any, because it does not in any way impact my ethics.

If you were the lawyer defending the ilk, you could at least go by the bible, e.g., Paraphrasing a verse "You'll find His handywork in nature". The TANGIBLE parts you can see and hold in your hands etc..

The only real impact it would have is whether I have to figure out how to make invisible pink glue.

Yes well don't bother with that. I understand you're a programmer. The concept of DNA for example being very much like a programmed language, should be a little more interesting for you.
 
Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

There is no sensible metaphysics, none, where this universe is a creation and not a simulation.

Such simulation relationships necessarily, observably do not require "perfectly good" creators.

Thus, creators cannot be offered as a source of moral or ethical cause.

You're the one looking into the deep dark well and saying they have found the light.

I stopped staring into that abyss some time ago, and instead looked to my left and right for answers, and there they were, the people to my left and right, their symmetry to myself being the answer as to where real ethics come from.
 
Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

No I meant the physics (theoretical) is not apt enough to tell you really anything, whether such things is possible or not. I'm with steve_b here.

 
Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

No I meant the physics (theoretical) is not apt enough to tell you really anything, whether such things is possible or not. I'm with steve_b here.

But the nature of metaphysical contradiction being nonsense and non-existent absolutely tells us a number of proven things:

There are zero or more gods. There may be (read: are almost certainly) zero gods.

Of 'or more', only those whose metaphysical description offers no contradictions in the syntax of their definition may 'exist'.

No creator god may metaphysically exist in such a way that this universe, as a creation, is not also exactly 'a simulation' (as per Occam's Razor and the observability of unthinking regular mechanics and invariant, if 'random' quantum mechanics).

This means, necessarily, that if there is a god either there is infinite simulation regress and there is no difference between "universe" and "simulation" or that it is entirely possible for a universe to exist all on its own... Including this one however absurd it's initial conditions are (or are not). Hence Occam's razor educates against belief in the first place.

There is, in the religious acceptance of a single god who has created a simulation, an admission that the uncertainty they use to proclaim this invites the infinite regress and the "no difference" principle between the concept of "universe" and "simulation".

By the no difference principle it would mean I myself fit the definition you use for 'god', and the thing I created is, in fact, a universe.

At which point we make uncomfortable observations: I am not ethically perfect. In fact the majority of folks who are playing this game routinely smite their creations merely for being unhappy, and smash inconvenient children under drawbridges.

I would say, in fact, that our behavior as gods is entirely in keeping with the descriptions of Biblegod's monstrous and ethically bereft conduct.

But even so, why should my own creations worship me? I do not want them to. It does nothing for them, and nothing for me. It makes their world no better, and it makes my interactions with them in their world no better.

I pointedly would very much dislike if the dev who designed the simulation, tomorrow, released a patch which suddenly made everyone aware that I was their god. It would be enough for me to shitcan the whole thing.

Their happiness in fact depends on them not knowing I even exist. And yes, they have something that amounts to happiness.

That should be a hint for you, then, too, about your religion and the implications these observed facts about an observed god of an observed simulated universe hold for your own proposed god of this universe as proposed by your belief which would necessarily require this to be a simulation.

Namely, everything about your religion is wrong: you ought not worship creators, you ought not receive directions in ethics from them as absolute truth, you ought not trust them implicitly, they likely do not want your worship, they can very well NOT be what you talk to when you pray, they can very well prefer people to be atheists, and they absolutely do not need, necessarily, to exist at all.

So even if you bring me and show me an invisible pink unicorn, I'm still not going to trust it, and I won't even accept that it has an existence of any kind except the imaginary kind until you do.
 
You've missed my point.

What you are doing is like saying, "There are two different types of objects in the universe. Things which are spherical (or fairly close to being spherical), and things which are not spherical at all."

These two categories do contain all objects that can possibly exist, but the categories are vague and thus tell us very little about what is in them.

From this post, you demonstrably don't understand the point of this thread.

I will restate it even more plainly....

1. Logically impossible gods cannot exist. (example: all knowing god which doesn't know everything)

2. Gods which exist only as labeling of existing objects as a god, also don't exist independent of the label (example: god is love/nature)

3. Gods which have properties that are equivalent to not existing... don't actually exist (deistic gods)

Can you , or can't you think of another category of gods which don't exist?

If you can't, then just say so. Why waste time claiming you don't understand the question?
 
Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

No I meant the physics (theoretical) is not apt enough to tell you really anything, whether such things is possible or not. I'm with steve_b here.
How would you know? Do you know what the Standard Model is? Do you even understand the physics Newton described in Principia over 300 years ago? No, you don't. Your opinion in this matter is worth nothing.
 
Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

No I meant the physics (theoretical) is not apt enough to tell you really anything, whether such things is possible or not. I'm with steve_b here.

You are both wrong.

And both refuse to even try to understand the massive evidence that shows you to be wrong, because you have already decided that, as you believe yourselves to be right, examining evidence that might say otherwise is a waste of your time.

That’s very sad, but it’s a you problem, not an us problem - it doesn’t affect the facts or the reality of our world in any way.
 
Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

No I meant the physics (theoretical) is not apt enough to tell you really anything, whether such things is possible or not. I'm with steve_b here.

You appear to be promoting the Christian Biblegod with all the personal descriptions of how he manipulates everything including humans. That god can be shown to be not possible.

Steve's idea of god seems to be whatever we don't yet know, but not your Biblegod.

For some god is just a mysterious (to them) workings of the universe. If they are thinking of god as something like some 'power' that pervades the universe and is responsible for formation of galaxies, stars, our Sun, The Earth, etc. then science has figured that out and science calls it gravity rather than a god.

ETA:
Anyone who wants to argue the existence of a god should first define exactly what the fuck they mean by the word, god, or they are just prattling nonsense. Your past posts indicate you are arguing for the god described in the Bible which can't exist. Some others don't seem to have actually thought through, so don't know, what they mean by the word, god, but just like the emotional warmth the word gives them (weirdly).
 
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Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

No I meant the physics (theoretical) is not apt enough to tell you really anything, whether such things is possible or not. I'm with steve_b here.

But the nature of metaphysical contradiction being nonsense and non-existent absolutely tells us a number of proven things:

There are zero or more gods. There may be (read: are almost certainly) zero gods.

Of 'or more', only those whose metaphysical description offers no contradictions in the syntax of their definition may 'exist'.

No creator god may metaphysically exist in such a way that this universe, as a creation, is not also exactly 'a simulation' (as per Occam's Razor and the observability of unthinking regular mechanics and invariant, if 'random' quantum mechanics).

Ok fair enough POV. Curiously, it just occured to me, this may sound dumb but.. do people apply Occam's Razor to Quantumn Mechanics to solve complexity issues, and, do you ?

This means, necessarily, that if there is a god either there is infinite simulation regress and there is no difference between "universe" and "simulation" or that it is entirely possible for a universe to exist all on its own... Including this one however absurd it's initial conditions are (or are not). Hence Occam's razor educates against belief in the first place.

There is, in the religious acceptance of a single god who has created a simulation, an admission that the uncertainty they use to proclaim this invites the infinite regress and the "no difference" principle between the concept of "universe" and "simulation".

By the no difference principle it would mean I myself fit the definition you use for 'god', and the thing I created is, in fact, a universe...........

Applying Occam's Razor for practically everything, it seems you've been doing, could mistakenly lead you to odd places, if I'm reading you correctly. If it were true that God exists, applying Occam's Razor would give you the same conclusion as: if God didn't exist. Using Occam's Razor to the various conditions you describe above; you couldn't actually tell for sure, if you consider all that's about the universe, the things we don't know about, that's not in the equation, so to speak.

 
Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

No I meant the physics (theoretical) is not apt enough to tell you really anything, whether such things is possible or not. I'm with steve_b here.

But the nature of metaphysical contradiction being nonsense and non-existent absolutely tells us a number of proven things:

There are zero or more gods. There may be (read: are almost certainly) zero gods.

Of 'or more', only those whose metaphysical description offers no contradictions in the syntax of their definition may 'exist'.

No creator god may metaphysically exist in such a way that this universe, as a creation, is not also exactly 'a simulation' (as per Occam's Razor and the observability of unthinking regular mechanics and invariant, if 'random' quantum mechanics).

Ok fair enough POV. Curiously, it just occured to me, this may sound dumb but.. do people apply Occam's Razor to Quantumn Mechanics to solve complexity issues, and, do you ?

This means, necessarily, that if there is a god either there is infinite simulation regress and there is no difference between "universe" and "simulation" or that it is entirely possible for a universe to exist all on its own... Including this one however absurd it's initial conditions are (or are not). Hence Occam's razor educates against belief in the first place.

There is, in the religious acceptance of a single god who has created a simulation, an admission that the uncertainty they use to proclaim this invites the infinite regress and the "no difference" principle between the concept of "universe" and "simulation".

By the no difference principle it would mean I myself fit the definition you use for 'god', and the thing I created is, in fact, a universe...........

Applying Occam's Razor for practically everything, it seems you've been doing, could mistakenly lead you to odd places, if I'm reading you correctly. If it were true that God exists, applying Occam's Razor would give you the same conclusion as: if God didn't exist. Using Occam's Razor to the various conditions you describe above; you couldn't actually tell for sure, if you consider all that's about the universe, the things we don't know about, that's not in the equation, so to speak.

I don’t think you grasp how Occam’s Razor works.

If there are observed phenomena for which the only possible explanation were that a God had intervened in the universe, then the existence of a God would be an appropriate conclusion, when applying the razor.

There are no such phenomena. That alone doesn’t preclude a God that influences the universe at human scales; To rule out such a God requires an understanding of Quantum Field Theory.

QFT cannot be wrong enough to permit unknown influences to exist at the scales in question; Therefore any influences that occur must be due to one of the four known (and readily detectable) forces that act at these scales.

To crudely summarise, QFT tells us that all forces have a corresponding particle; It also predicts the properties that particles of this type will have. Importantly, their masses are directly linked to their strength and range, so if we are able to detect all particles below a given mass, we could confidently predict that no forces other than those mediated by the particles we detected could influence matter at scales below a given size.

But mass and energy are directly linked (as famously described by Einstein); So if we built a machine that can concentrate enough energy into a small enough volume, we would be certain to create (and be able to detect) all the particles that can exist below that energy (and therefore mass).

We have built such a machine, at CERN, and the results are unequivocal. There are no unknown forces that can interact with an individual human being without imparting so much energy to him that he explodes violently.

God cannot ’move in mysterious ways’ when interacting with humans, because the stuff humans are made of only interacts with anything in one of four easily detectable and well understood ways.

The details of QFT are, of course, hugely complex; But the above is a fair ‘layman’s summary’ of the points that matter in this discussion.

Of course, QFT could be wrong. But it cannot be wrong enough to rescue the idea of unknown influences on human scale objects. For it to be that wildly wrong, our predictions would need to depart substantially from our observations of reality.

They don’t.

We checked.
 



Well we're all going to find zilch in physics and cosmology
If there is zilch in physics and zilch above physics, then there's zilch gods, and as pointed out.

No I meant the physics (theoretical) is not apt enough to tell you really anything, whether such things is possible or not. I'm with steve_b here.

You appear to be promoting the Christian Biblegod with all the personal descriptions of how he manipulates everything including humans. That god can be shown to be not possible.

This is crucial. Why? Because you are in error, to think I believe in the concept that "God manipulates everything." Which it seems Sean Carroll thinks so too.


Steve's idea of god seems to be whatever we don't yet know, but not your Biblegod.

I think he's been pointing out certain iffy knowledge claims

For some god is just a mysterious (to them) workings of the universe. If they are thinking of god as something like some 'power' that pervades the universe and is responsible for formation of galaxies, stars, our Sun, The Earth, etc. then science has figured that out and science calls it gravity rather than a god.

If that's the definition of the biblical God to you, then you are wrong.

So... if anyone can tell me, what definition of God did Sean Carroll use to make the "knowledge" claim that "God couldn't exist"?

Did he use the same concept you ascribe to, which I'll describe as, the Puppet Master concept? Vigorous thorough experiments resulting in the same conclusion - the conclusion, He couldn't see the "holy strings" attached , so there for.... it's impossible? Never mind conflicting with the concept of free will. Wrong faith, wrong God! What an error!

(He'd be right though, if the concept of Puppet Master was the definition).


ETA:
Anyone who wants to argue the existence of a god should first define exactly what the fuck they mean by the word, god, or they are just prattling nonsense. Your past posts indicate you are arguing for the god described in the Bible which can't exist. Some others don't seem to have actually thought through, so don't know, what they mean by the word, god, but just like the emotional warmth the word gives them (weirdly).

Indeed. it's definition. We see your (plural) definition; it looks a little different from my version!
 
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QFT cannot be wrong enough to permit unknown influences to exist at the scales in question
The universe can be a simulation hosting a quantum field structure.

This allows such an unknown influence to act at such a scale for the same reason that while a computer program's structure can be deciphered to rule out a process within the program being able to do certain things at particular scales (especially thanks to Godel's contributions to incompleteness), it does not rule out these things from being done side-channel.

In other words, just because no thing in the world of, for example, dwarf fortress has the ability to know what is on the other side of the door because they are bound to the laws of their universe, I still have the power to just... Go in and look at the bits and edit them.

It would not be a matter of QFT being wrong. It would be a matter of not being bounded by or existing purely in the same system which creates the bounds of QFT.

This is why called-shot causal adjacency on demand would prove simulation/host mechanics: it is the only way to structure such behavior.

The only thing it rules out as such are non-simulating gods. It also means that making changes to the structure of reality is very dangerous, very easy to fuck up, and would lead to artifacts like shit randomly exploding so violently that it might be diffucult for some time to tell there was ever even a solar system here before the fuckup.

Again, these facts deal more exotic injuries than the standard injuries offered by the razor: it not only shows that a great many such are well and truly nonsense, but also takes from such any claim to intrinsic moral perfection, under the observation that intrinsic moral perfection is observably not a necessarily quality for entities in that position: it reveals "something with a mind no more developed nor perfect than mere humans may be such a thing, to such a thing as a 'universe simulation', and we already know humans suck."

As such, this produces a more satisfying response to Pascal's wager: that even if there is a god, he can prefer the atheist.

I can even demonstrate A universe (not this one, but contained in this one), which as I explain IS a universe IF this universe has a god, and is one for which this is true.
 
So... if anyone can tell me, what definition of God did Sean Carroll use to make the "knowledge" claim that "God couldn't exist"?
A God that interacts in any way with matter on scales as small as, or smaller than, the solar system, without being detected.

So that’s any god that has ever influenced a human being, and also any divine essence, soul, or life-force that might allow for continued existence of any kind for humans after the death of their physical bodies.

All prophets, and by extension, any religion that claims the existence of prophets, are similarly shown to be false.

Carroll doesn’t definitively rule out gods that influence only cosmic scale processes, so the deist god that created our universe and then took no further part is not eliminated (just pointless, needless, and incredibly unlikely); This does nothing to rescue any flavour of Abrahamic religion, though. Christians, Muslims, and Jews are out of luck, as indeed are almost all of the religions in history.

The only gods that remain possible are those that are indistinguishable from non-existent.
 
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