bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
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I.e., you mean something by "right" that's completely unrelated to what Jefferson meant by "right".
Here is the sum total of what the D.of.I. has to say about what sort of governments he and his colleagues were forming.Jefferson wasn't describing some fundamental characteristic of reality; he was describing what sort of government he and his colleagues were forming.The preamble is a series of claims about some fundamental characteristic of reality; the bulk of the declaration is a justification for the action they were taking; the description of what sort of governments would result is almost an afterthought, probably thrown in as a way of inviting the French to help out.
TJ said:...as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.
Huh? By what logic? Jefferson said "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men". Well, why the heck would it be futile to form a government to secure rights that derived from gods or from nature? If people decide "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" to a "separate and equal station" and/or "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", how exactly would that either magically make those people's enemies not try to violate those rights or magically make forming a government an ineffective way to stop them?If those rights derived from Gods or from nature, the whole business of forming a government would be futile.
Your opinion that they aren't fundamental is not an argument that those who disagree with your opinion have fooled themselves. No doubt a few of those who have thought rights are fundamental also inferred that government is unnecessary, but so what? Lots of people make erroneous inferences from correct premises; no doubt some people have even made erroneous inferences from premises you agree with; I doubt you would regard their existence as evidence against the correctness of your premises. Since neither Jefferson, obviously, nor AFAIK anyone on FRDB, has claimed fundamental rights make government unnecessary, the existence of that silly opinion is beside the point.Many people have fooled themselves into believing that rights are fundamental, and as a result they believe that government is unnecessary.
But without government, rights cease to exist in your sense, Mr. Yes I think 'Might = Right's probably true. Yes, without government we have the might only to what we can take and defend, and only for as long as nobody comes along who can take it from us. No one is disputing your ability to construct tautologies. But the circumstance that you choose to speak an idiolect in which the word "right" means "might" and in which there exists no word for what normal English speakers use "right" to mean is not an argument that people who instead choose to speak normal English are not using the word in any meaningful sense.But without government, rights cease to exist in any meaningful sense - you have the right only to what you can take and defend, and only for as long as nobody comes along who can take it from you.
You appear to be very confused by what I wrote, given that much of your response is asking my why I believe things I don't, and/or why I don't agree with you on points with which I agree.
Perhaps you would do better to read what I said, taking great care not to project your expectations on it, and then respond to that?
Or maybe you could simply explain what YOU think are the characteristics of a 'right' that make it able to exist independent of a government; That might also help us to discuss the topic.
As it stands, I can't make a meaningful response to the questions you ask in your reply, because they don't make any sense in the light of my already stated position, and your reply does not present an intelligible countervailing position to compare with mine.