If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[aupmanyav]

I see people trying to clarify your position on this subject. That is, you seem to endorse what appears to be a double standard under Indian law as it pertains to sexual intercourse between men and women.

I am giving as much information as possible. The problem is in your perspective. You do not seem to have much respect for Constitution and law of other countries. Obviously American or British laws will not work in India. We have a Constitution which is working for us very nicely for the last 76 years and has created a solid democratic society with regular elections and changes of governments. The laws have been created and amended by due process as per the requirement of time, by our two houses of parliament and have been ratified by our Supreme Court, which is independent of any government interference, as being valid according to our Constitution, and finally promulgated by our President. What more can be asked for?

 

[aupmanyav]

Marital rape (and any rape) can be very difficult to prove.

The woman's word will be enough in India in this particular case. She would not have to show a torn condom. We are still struggling for the correct solution of the problem of 'marital rape'. The Indian government does not recognize 'marital rape' at the moment. It accepts only 'marital violence' for which we have stringent laws.

Contraceptives are known to fail so wouldn’t that be part of the risk that the woman takes and thus should not absolve her of her responsibility? Its ok to murder a baby if a condom breaks?

OK to some, not OK to others, but the woman is eligible for termination of pregnancy in such case.

I don’t know the law, I’m only going by what you are saying.

It does not (make it into a woman's fault).

Good for you. I am the son of a lawyer, so one generation closer to a lawyer than you.

I accept that.

 

[aupmanyav]

a solid democratic society with regular elections and changes of governments.

Even today the results of elections in two states and other elections in various states to fill vacancies were announced. Modi's party won resoundingly in Maharashtra elections but lost in Jharkhand.
The 'vacancy' elections also went Modi's way in two major states. In two states, his party was defeated. That is the way of democracy.
Now the state of Delhi will go for polls in February 2025.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah. That is so. The woman has no right to burden the man post-act with a responsibility that he never took up.

The helpless male! He needs protection of the law from women with immoral vaginas!

 

[Toni]

The discussion started with my comment: "Did he indulge in sex with any such obligation?"

Either everyone does, or no one does.

Aup.: That is incorrect in tradition as well as in law.

Is that so

Aup.: In tradition, why sex without marriage?
In law, he never made such a promise. Why were you not more careful?

Yeah. That is so. The woman has no right to burden the man post-act with a responsibility that he never took up.
(That is my reading of the Indian law. The judges know better. I am not a know-all)

If she was responsible for any resulting pregnancy, why is he not equally responsible?

 

[aupmanyav]

The helpless male! He needs protection of the law from women with immoral vaginas!

Yes, it happens. On one of his air-travels, a woman accused my son of violating her modesty and a person sitting elsewhere supported her. My son asked her for her seat number. She had a seat elsewhere. My son asked her to go to her seat. Such false accusations and that of rape are quite common. For some, it is their profession.

Any thing like that means immediate arrest in India and then lock ups in police stations, call to lawyers, visits to courts, etc. Money is required for each of these steps and many males pay up to avoid the hazzle.

 

[aupmanyav]

If she was responsible for any resulting pregnancy, why is he not equally responsible?

For the simple reason that he had not given any such assurance when they had sex.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The helpless male! He needs protection of the law from women with immoral vaginas!

Yes, it happens. On one of his air-travels, a woman accused my son of violating her modesty and a person sitting elsewhere supported her. My son asked her for her seat number. She had a seat elsewhere. My son asked her to go to her seat. Such false accusations and that of rape are quite common. For some, it is their profession.

What does that have to do with pregnancy via consenual sex?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If she was responsible for any resulting pregnancy, why is he not equally responsible?

For the simple reason that he had not given any such assurance when they had sex.

So the whole responsibility thing you referred to was bullshit.

 

[Millrat]

You do not seem to have much respect for Constitution and law of other countries.

I have more respect for a woman’s autonomy.

Also, most constitutional laws around abortion are crafted by old men unburdened by the possibility of being subject to them. So ya, I’m a little short on fucks to give.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I see people trying to clarify your position on this subject. That is, you seem to endorse what appears to be a double standard under Indian law as it pertains to sexual intercourse between men and women.

I am giving as much information as possible. The problem is in your perspective. You do not seem to have much respect for Constitution and law of other countries.

The problem isn't whatever the law is, it is your inaccurate representation of it regarding the whole point being about responsibility of people having sex. It punishes women for having sex and getting pregnant, it appears to have little to no responsibility on men.

 

[Toni]

If she was responsible for any resulting pregnancy, why is he not equally responsible?

For the simple reason that he had not given any such assurance when they had sex.

Really? I admit I assumed they were both competent adults and were aware that pregnancy could result from sexual intercourse. In which case, the male was as responsible fur the pregnancy as the woman. Of course she bears all risks to her health, her education and employment t opportunities, her standing in the community, etc.

 

[Toni]

I see people trying to clarify your position on this subject. That is, you seem to endorse what appears to be a double standard under Indian law as it pertains to sexual intercourse between men and women.

I am giving as much information as possible. The problem is in your perspective. You do not seem to have much respect for Constitution and law of other countries.

The problem isn't whatever the law is, it is your inaccurate representation of it regarding the whole point being about responsibility of people having sex. It punishes women for having sex and getting pregnant, it appears to have little to no responsibility on men.

In other words: life as women my age and before knew it. Even with Roe intact, most women sought out ( legal) abortions in secret or near secret.

 

[unapologetic]

If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?​

Why is this a question?
Isn't that the medical viewpoint.
I doubt you can find any doctor willing to preform an abortion that late.
It is only christian fear mongering that it ever happens.

 

[Elixir]

If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?​

Why is this a question?

It's not. If it's in the womb it's not a baby, it's a fetus.
If it is outside the womb living and breathing, killing it is murder.

Definitions aside, the poorly phrased question assumes the inerrant capability to know whether removing the fetus from the womb could under any circumstances, result in a baby. Such capability does not exist.
It has been pointed out early in the thread that a non-viable fetus today might be a viable one tomorrow, depending on technology. Eventually one might consider a blastocyst - or even fingernail - clipping "viable".

 

[TomC]

It has been pointed out early in the thread that a non-viable fetus today might be a viable one tomorrow, depending on technology. Eventually one might consider a blastocyst - or even fingernail - clipping "viable".

"Viable" has become another one of those words that are too vague and subjective to be much use in the discussion.

At this moment, my partner's newest grandson is in a mess. He was born somewhat premature, probably about 3-4 weeks. That was a month ago and he's still in the hospital ICU. He couldn't breathe on his own and still can't. He's in an oxygen tent being tube fed. He's never been held by his parents. Or fed. Every day we all wonder if he'll even leave the hospital alive. If he does survive I shudder to think about the psychological outcome of having that as your first experiences.

Yuck!
Tom

 

[TomC]

Update!
I asked Doug about the current situation.
Brody (the baby) is still hospitalized. But has improved enough for his parents to cuddle him for a few minutes at a time. They are flooding Facebook with photos.
Yay!
Tom

 

[aupmanyav]

The helpless male! He needs protection of the law from women with immoral vaginas!

What does that have to do with pregnancy via consenual sex?

Yes, sometimes, helpless males too need protection.

So the whole responsibility thing you referred to was bullshit.

Responsibility come in when someone undertakes it.

 

[aupmanyav]

I have more respect for a woman’s autonomy.

All autonomies have their limits. There are regulations for Euthanasia in India.

 

[aupmanyav]

The problem isn't whatever the law is, it is your inaccurate representation of it regarding the whole point being about responsibility of people having sex. It punishes women for having sex and getting pregnant, it appears to have little to no responsibility on men.

Yes, no responsibility unless the person has agreed to it. I do not think I am representing it incorrectly.
If you loose a million dollars in stock trading, is the company responsible for it?