If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[bilby]

Emily's List is clearly strongly pro-abortion.

Do you know anything at all about Emily's List?

Do you even know who "Emily" was, without looking it up?

 

[bilby]

So are people here still saying that that video about Emily's List was just made up?

I am saying that I don't know and nor do you. Any, some, or all of the claims made could be true, or not, and need checking with a non-YouTube source before being accepted as plausible, much less as true.

All such videos contain a mix of truth and lies. Good quality lying always uses a large dose of truth.

 

[excreationist]

Emily's List is clearly strongly pro-abortion.

Do you know anything at all about Emily's List?

Do you even know who "Emily" was?

About

www.emilyslist.org.au

EMILY is an acronym which stands for Early Money Is Like Yeast – it makes the dough rise.
...
EMILY’s List provides a financial, political and personal support network for progressive Labor women in Australian politics.
...
We believe women must have control over their own bodies and choices in their lives.

According to the YouTube video, complete support for abortion is necessary to be a member. And that quote at least partly supports that idea (saying "must").

 

[excreationist]

If she made it up I think that could harm her reptuation more than it could damage the Labor party.

I don't know who "she" is, nor what the "it" she might have made up is - I have no intention of caring, or of watching the video.

"She" is "Dr Joanna Howe". So far everything I've found supports what she's said. I'm going to ask Labor supporters about it (after the election). I suspect they will confirm what she's said is correct but since no-one here sounds interested in that I might not post about that later.

 

[bilby]

Emily's List is clearly strongly pro-abortion.

Do you know anything at all about Emily's List?

Do you even know who "Emily" was?

About

www.emilyslist.org.au

EMILY is an acronym which stands for Early Money Is Like Yeast – it makes the dough rise.
...
EMILY’s List provides a financial, political and personal support network for progressive Labor women in Australian politics.
...
We believe women must have control over their own bodies and choices in their lives.

According to the YouTube video, complete support for abortion is necessary to be a member. And that quote at least partly supports that idea (saying "must").

So, no, you don't know anything about Emily's List, except what appears on the "About" page of their website; But you believe things said about the organisation on YouTube.

This is a recipe for believing nonsense about them. As you are ably demonstrating.

 

[bilby]

If she made it up I think that could harm her reptuation more than it could damage the Labor party.

I don't know who "she" is, nor what the "it" she might have made up is - I have no intention of caring, or of watching the video.

"She" is "Dr Joanna Howe".

That tells me nothing. I already assumed that she had a name.

So far everything I've found supports what she's said. I'm going to ask Labor supporters about it (after the election).

At which point, the information is valueless. Particularly if your vote was in any way influenced by her.

I suspect they will confirm what she's said is correct

Your suspicions are also not a source of information.

but since no-one here sounds interested in that I might not post about that later.

That sounds like the only good idea I have heard from you so far in this thread.

 

[excreationist]

Emily's List is clearly strongly pro-abortion.

Do you know anything at all about Emily's List?

Do you even know who "Emily" was?

About

www.emilyslist.org.au

EMILY is an acronym which stands for Early Money Is Like Yeast – it makes the dough rise.
...
EMILY’s List provides a financial, political and personal support network for progressive Labor women in Australian politics.
...
We believe women must have control over their own bodies and choices in their lives.

According to the YouTube video, complete support for abortion is necessary to be a member. And that quote at least partly supports that idea (saying "must").

So, no, you don't know anything about Emily's List, except what appears on the "About" page of their website; But you believe things said about the organisation on YouTube.

I thought the official website would be the best place to find information about it and where their name came from. Note the YouTube video capitalised "EMILYs" which is consistent with it being an acronym.
It says they're "progressive" and women "must" have control over their bodies which are both consistent with the video.

This is a recipe for believing nonsense about them. As you are ably demonstrating.

No-one has given a single example of something that is shown to be inaccurate. Though of course you can't be bothered but that's understandable. Anyway I'll find out it from Labor people themselves in a week. I guess you're betting that basically no-one in EMILYs List wants there to be abortion up until birth according to other Labor people....

 

[excreationist]

If she made it up I think that could harm her reptuation more than it could damage the Labor party.

I don't know who "she" is, nor what the "it" she might have made up is - I have no intention of caring, or of watching the video.

"She" is "Dr Joanna Howe".

That tells me nothing. I already assumed that she had a name.

Dr Joanna Howe

It’s time to flip the 
script on abortion

www.drjoannahowe.com

"Dr Joanna Howe is a Professor of Law and mother of five." (also talks about abortion)

So far everything I've found supports what she's said. I'm going to ask Labor supporters about it (after the election).

At which point, the information is valueless. Particularly if your vote was in any way influenced by her.

I have already voted for Labor and the Greens, the biggest supporters of abortion (and would have voted that way if I didn't vote early). I'm going to post on reddit about it but am waiting until after the election in case there is negative interest in the topic. On second thoughts some of the subreddits might vote down the topic depending how negative the source is.

I suspect they will confirm what she's said is correct

Your suspicions are also not a source of information.

Well we'll see.

but since no-one here sounds interested in that I might not post about that later.

That sounds like the only good idea I have heard from you so far in this thread.

Well I might change my mind...

 

[excreationist]

@bilby

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List

www.emilyslist.org.au

An influential group of female Labor members is calling on the government to consider further broadening access to the abortion pill and allowing pharmacists to prescribe it without a script from a doctor or nurse.

Do you think that that policy idea is not from EMILYs List?

 

[bilby]

@bilby

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List

www.emilyslist.org.au

An influential group of female Labor members is calling on the government to consider further broadening access to the abortion pill and allowing pharmacists to prescribe it without a script from a doctor or nurse.

Do you think that that policy idea is not from EMILYs List?

I sincerely doubt that it originates from them. I would not be at all surprised if they supported it, as do I.

Do you think that is a bad policy? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[excreationist]

@bilby

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List

www.emilyslist.org.au

An influential group of female Labor members is calling on the government to consider further broadening access to the abortion pill and allowing pharmacists to prescribe it without a script from a doctor or nurse.

Do you think that that policy idea is not from EMILYs List?

I sincerely doubt that it originates from them.

It seems EMILY's List involves Labor women that are united in their support of abortion. It isn't surprising that Dr Jo says that its founding member strongly supported abortion. Anyway the idea seems very pro-abortion.

Our Team

www.emilyslist.org.au

Pamela Anderson - CEO - "is a unionist, feminist, and entrepreneur"
Unionist suggests ties to Labor (since it didn't say she is a Labor politician).

I would not be at all surprised if they supported it, as do I.

Do you think that is a bad policy? If so, why? If not, why not?

Well according to Dr Jo the abortion pill is only $7 on concession or $30 at the most. That sounds good since I don't really care that much about abortion but many Christians would probably have big problems with abortion policies like that. (note EMILY's List itself even called it an "abortion pill"). I'm much more against Dutton than abortion and don't want to risk anything that might help Dutton.

 

[excreationist]

Copilot: Is abortion up until birth legal in Australia?

In most states, abortion is allowed up to a certain point in pregnancy (e.g., 22–24 weeks). Beyond that, it typically requires approval from two doctors [i.e. can be allowed] and must meet specific criteria, such as risks to the pregnant person's health or severe fetal abnormalities.

are there any examples in Australia of legal abortion at 37 weeks?

Abortion at 37 weeks in Australia is extremely rare [i.e. it can happen] and typically only occurs under exceptional circumstances, such as when the pregnant person's life is at risk or there are severe fetal abnormalities. Each case is carefully reviewed by medical professionals and must meet strict legal and ethical criteria. If you're looking for specific examples, they are not commonly documented publicly due to privacy concerns.

If the example Dr Jo was talking about was factual (abortion at 37 weeks where the baby and mother were "physically healthy") but I assume the mother wasn't mentally healthy - but two doctors approved the abortion - is that a problem?

 

[bilby]

It seems EMILY's List involves Labor women that are united in their support of abortion.

Nope. Emily's List is just Labor women who help each other financially. The senior members help new members to break in to politics.

Abortion is one small part of the policy platform in which they take an interest.

Of course, monomaniacs see everything as being about their specific issue of choice. That's one reason why sensible people try to avoid them.

Unionist suggests ties to Labor

Yeah, no shit. The Labor Party is the political arm of the union movement - Did you not know that?

but many Christians would probably have big problems with abortion policies like that.

Why should we care what Christians have problems with? Irrational people have irrational problems. Those problems are self-inflicted.

 

[excreationist]

It seems EMILY's List involves Labor women that are united in their support of abortion.

Nope. Emily's List is just Labor women who help each other financially.

No that's not all. It specifically says they're "progressive" and "We believe women must have control over their own bodies and choices in their lives". Dr Jo says it is a non-negotiable policy giving quotes, etc.

The senior members help new members to break in to politics.

Abortion is one small part of the policy platform in which they take an interest.

Perhaps like how the Greens have a policy on Palestine.

Of course, monomaniacs see everything as being about their specific issue of choice. That's one reason why sensible people try to avoid them.

But they said "we" etc as if it has to be a stance that all members agree to. And Dr Jo gives an example of a women who was dropped by them because she didn't completely support late-term abortion.

Unionist suggests ties to Labor

Yeah, no shit. The Labor Party is the political arm of the union movement - Did you not know that?

I thought you might have said that was a stretch.

but many Christians would probably have big problems with abortion policies like that.

Why should we care what Christians have problems with? Irrational people have irrational problems. Those problems are self-inflicted.

I find the morality interesting in a similar way that I made a computer game based on the Biblical morality of genocide, etc. A lot of family and friends of mine are strong Christians.

 

[bilby]

No that's not all.

Yes, it really is. I know this from direct personal experience; I was the Chair of the Moreton Federal Divisional Executive* for the ALP back in the 1990s, and attended several Emily's List events in that time.

It specifically says they're "progressive" and "We believe women must have control over their own bodies and choices in their lives". Dr Jo says it is a non-negotiable policy giving quotes, etc.

Dr Jo sounds like a monomaniac extremist loon to me. They are commonplace in the YouTube environment.







* Labor Party FDEs have since been renamed Federal Electorate Councils (FECs).

 

[excreationist]

No that's not all.

Yes, it really is. I know this from direct personal experience; I was the Chair of the Moreton Federal Divisional Executive* for the ALP back in the 1990s, and attended several Emily's List events in that time.

It specifically says they're "progressive" and "We believe women must have control over their own bodies and choices in their lives". Dr Jo says it is a non-negotiable policy giving quotes, etc.

Dr Jo sounds like a monomaniac extremist loon to me. They are commonplace in the YouTube environment.

"We" means that all of them must believe that. That is similar to a church webpage I looked at. If anyone didn't support that then they couldn't accurately use the word "we". "Must" also means that it is a required policy. I'm talking about reading between the lines. (I studied a Logic subject in University) [can't remember the exact name]
I think her research is quite thorough - she claims to be a Professor of Law after all. But she seems to be an extremist.

 

[excreationist]

Dr Jo sounds like a monomaniac extremist loon to me. They are commonplace in the YouTube environment.

Dr Joanna Howe

It’s time to flip the 
script on abortion

www.drjoannahowe.com

It was when the South Australian parliament passed new laws to introduce abortion up to birth, that Joanna felt compelled to devote her life to ending abortion, based on the conviction that abortion harms women and is the most horrific human rights abuse in Australia today. In 2022 Joanna co-founded Enid Lyons List, a new Australian organisation aimed at empowering prolife women into the public square. Joanna has since launched social media accounts on Instagram, Tiktok, Facebook and YouTube to educate, inform and inspire Australians on the issue of abortion. Joanna’s goal is to advocate for an Australia where abortion is unthinkable and where we provide meaningful support to all women during pregnancy and as mothers.

So she's very extreme...

Dr Joanna Howe

It’s time to flip the 
script on abortion

www.drjoannahowe.com

How are babies born alive following an abortion?
Although the abortion industry and some media outlets assert that
babies born alive and left to die following an abortion is a ‘myth’,
‘nonsensical’, and ‘medically unnecessary’, the data clearly
indicates that some babies are born alive following a failed abortion.
One known example of how this occurs is when a baby is born alive
following the induction of labour without feticide.
Feticide is where specific interventions occur to ensure the death of the in-utero baby
prior to being delivered fully intact vaginally through labour.

How long do babies live for following a failed abortion?
Although there is very little information about what happens to babies who are born alive
following an abortion, a Northern Territory Coroner’s report into the death of baby Jessica
Jane provides insight into what occurs.

In this case, Jessica Jane was born alive and placed on a metal kidney dish in an empty room
for approximately 80 minutes until she died. According to Nurse Williams who delivered
her, Jessica Jane, although premature, was apparently healthy, had no apparent
abnormalities and her vital signs were relatively good. Nurse Williams weighed the baby
and she was 515 grams. She called the doctor who had authorised the abortion to inform
him of the live birth and that the baby’s Apgar scores were strong. According to the
Coroner, the doctor’s only response was to say ‘so?’ and then he abruptly hung up the phone
on her. As he did not instruct to give the baby medical care, the baby was left to die where
she lay. Nurse Williams checked on Jessica Jane every 10-15 minutes and observed crying
and movement. According to the Coroner’s report ‘after about an hour her heartbeat and
breathing slowed until death at 0405 hours’. Nurse Williams informed the Coroner, ‘I
desperately wanted to do more, but felt my hands were tied’.

Another coronial report into an unnamed baby who was zipped into a medical waste bag
whilst still alive and breathing, found that ‘many terminated foetus[es] live after they are
expelled from the mother’. In this case the Coroner criticised the hospital staff for failing to
care for a baby born alive following an abortion, stating:

There is a serious issue which arose as to the way in which the deceased
was treated after signs of life were detected. Not the least of these being the
non-acceptance by medical staff that they had a duty to treat the situation
in a manner different than they did.

In 2018, a study reported in the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology reviewed 241
late-term abortions without feticide on babies between 20-24 weeks gestation and found
that more than half the babies were born alive, with a median time of survival of 32
minutes and one baby surviving for over four hours (267 minutes).

In evidence given to the Senate inquiry into the Human Rights (Children Born Alive)
Protection Bill 2023, evidence was given of a baby in Western Australia who survived for 18
hours after a failed abortion.

The oldest in-utero Australian baby to be aborted for a
psychosocial reason was a 37 week old baby in 2011. (32)
37 weeks is full term. In that same year, 10 babies
between 28–31 weeks gestation were also aborted for a
psychosocial reason. Babies born at 28 weeks have an
80–90% chance of survival.

(32) Consultative Council on Obstetric and Paedatric Mortality and Morbidity, ‘2010 and 2011: Victoria’s Mothers and Babies Victoria’s
Maternal, Perinatal, Child and Adolescent Mortality’ (Report, State of Victoria, July 2014) 141 (Table 6.20b) <https://www.safercare.vic.
gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-09/Victoria%27s%20Mothers%2C%20Babies%20and%20Children%202010%20and%202011%20Annu
al%20Report.pdf>.
https://www.safercare.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-09/Victoria's Mothers, Babies and Children 2010 and 2011 Annual Report.pdf
So there's the evidence for the 37 week claim. (somewhere in that pdf I assume)

 

[unapologetic]

Do you think that is also fake information?

Judging from that photo, those partiers don't look rich enough to secretly control politics.

 

[Elixir]

Just scanning (yawn) and seeing numerous references to “pro-abortion” and “complete support of abortion” which is a big red flag for The Party of Compete Control of Women.
Y’all make it sound like people think it’s more fun than a barrel of monkeys.
This tells me your opinion may be safely disregarded, and my opposition to politicians legislating reproductive healthcare remains untouched.
Abortion laws kill people.

 

[excreationist]

Do you think that is also fake information?

Judging from that photo, those partiers don't look rich enough to secretly control politics.

They're a powerful Labor faction that requires support for strong abortion laws if women want to join. As far as being secret goes, they're just not really in the mainstream media. So they look just like ordinary Labor members.