If the economy is so great, why don't more people feel better off?

[Treedbear]

...

4. There is nothing wrong with making America great again if you live here. Its not selfish to want something better with your life.

The problem is the "again" part. It harkens back to a time when faggots, negroes, and women knew their place, and that time was not great for any of those people who lived here at the time. It wasn't even "great" for most of the white males in the country, we just have a lot of people looking back at it with rose colored glasses.

Yes. We need to start making America better again. Like we used to do. Cleaner water and air. Tighter and more prudent banking regulations. Easier access to voting. Wider access to healthcare. And or course greater equality for all.

 

[RVonse]

The problem is the "again" part. It harkens back to a time when faggots, negroes, and women knew their place, and that time was not great for any of those people who lived here at the time. It wasn't even "great" for most of the white males in the country, we just have a lot of people looking back at it with rose colored glasses.

The OP is addressing economics and not fags and negroes.

And on that count America needs to be great again. It was great during the time women were nor required to work and where a family of 4 was supported by 1 income.

We can argue about how we got to this place that the OP describes. But there can be no argument we are here now. And it was BOTH republicans and democrats that did get us to this place described by the OP.

The Trump supporters want to do something about it. You may argue that is misguided. But even misguided Trump is better than nothing at all. Nothing at all is what the traditional repubicans and democrats want.

 

[Treedbear]

...
We can argue about how we got to this place that the OP describes. But there can be no argument we are here now. And it was BOTH republicans and democrats that did get us to this place described by the OP.

The Trump supporters want to do something about it. You may argue that is misguided. But even misguided Trump is better than nothing at all. Nothing at all is what the traditional repubicans and democrats want.

I understand why Republicans and many Dems had a problem voting for Hillary. I was one of them until it became flagrantly obvious how deranged and incompetent Trump was. So there's no argument that Hillary lost the election rather than Trump winning it. And now we have an entire spectrum of Dems running from old school like Biden to progressives like Sanders and Warren who want to do something about it. But Trump has his supporters so brainwashed that they won't ever be allowed to open their minds to the possibility that we have the opportunity for real change that will finally benefit them, rather than the oligarch class that Trump fawns over. If they really want to save this nation from never being able to go back to where it was when their families had security and the chance for a better future they need to look honestly and frankly at the choice they made before it's too late to repair the damage that's already been done.

 

[Politesse]

The problem is the "again" part. It harkens back to a time when faggots, negroes, and women knew their place, and that time was not great for any of those people who lived here at the time. It wasn't even "great" for most of the white males in the country, we just have a lot of people looking back at it with rose colored glasses.

The OP is addressing economics and not fags and negroes.

And on that count America needs to be great again. It was great during the time women were nor required to work and where a family of 4 was supported by 1 income.

We can argue about how we got to this place that the OP describes. But there can be no argument we are here now. And it was BOTH republicans and democrats that did get us to this place described by the OP.

The Trump supporters want to do something about it. You may argue that is misguided. But even misguided Trump is better than nothing at all. Nothing at all is what the traditional repubicans and democrats want.

I'm baffled by the idea that "doing something" is laudable whether or not it works or is likely to help. Cutting the US off from global trade and ending our status as a global higher education Mecca is not going to help disenfranchised Midwestern factory workers in any way. Trump is a rolling disaster to himself and others. It would be funny if the consequences weren't so dire.

 

[laughing dog]

But even misguided Trump is better than nothing at all. Nothing at all is what the traditional repubicans and democrats want.

That is extremely poor reasoning. A misguided ______ is not better than nothing by definition because a misguided _____ is going to make things even worse off than doing nothing. Otherwise, _____ is not misguided.

 

[RVonse]

But even misguided Trump is better than nothing at all. Nothing at all is what the traditional repubicans and democrats want.

That is extremely poor reasoning. A misguided ______ is not better than nothing by definition because a misguided _____ is going to make things even worse off than doing nothing. Otherwise, _____ is not misguided.

If you are falling from a high rise building, attempting to catch a window sill or a flag pole on the way down is better than doing nothing at all. It is rational and intelligent behaviour . It might even save your life.

And that makes a very conservative assumption Trump was wrong about trade with China (which he isn't or wasn't). His stance with trade with China was exactly correct. It was NOT some law of thermodynamics that caused high value added jobs to leave US to China. It took human agency to accomplish that. And thanks to the efforts of Trump, those same high value lines are now leaving China as we speak. Trump was right.

Whether he fixes the problem fast enough to fix 30 years of issues outlined in the OP.... we will see will see.

But one thing is for sure. The dems and republicans were letting us fall all the way to the ground.

 

[Half-Life]

But even misguided Trump is better than nothing at all. Nothing at all is what the traditional repubicans and democrats want.

That is extremely poor reasoning. A misguided ______ is not better than nothing by definition because a misguided _____ is going to make things even worse off than doing nothing. Otherwise, _____ is not misguided.

If you are falling from a high rise building, attempting to catch a window sill or a flag pole on the way down is better than doing nothing at all. It is rational and intelligent behaviour . It might even save your life.

And that makes a very conservative assumption Trump was wrong about trade with China (which he isn't or wasn't). His stance with trade with China was exactly correct. It was NOT some law of thermodynamics that caused high value added jobs to leave US to China. It took human agency to accomplish that. And thanks to the efforts of Trump, those same high value lines are now leaving China as we speak. Trump was right.

Whether he fixes the problem fast enough to fix 30 years of issues outlined in the OP.... we will see will see.

But one thing is for sure. The dems and republicans were letting us fall all the way to the ground.

It's very simple. Jobs get outsourced to other countries because Dems pay people to not work (welfare) in this country.

When you pay people to not work, you need to find people willing to do those jobs, which means going overseas. Republicans are trying to stop the coddling handouts and Dems keep screaming "NO!!!" So, outsourcing will keep happening.

We also say, "Tighter border security will lessen the illegals coming in and stealing jobs from the people who Dems pay to not work." Dems also scream, "NOOO!! OPEN BORDERS!!!!!!"

Just mind-boggling stupidity.

 

[lpetrich]

If everyone went to college,university, or trade school and learned a skill, if everyone saved everything they earned except for bare necessities, if no one ever smoked dope or shot dope, if no one got pregnant too young, yadda yadda, no one made any mistakes at all how are you going to give good paying jobs with benefits and retirement?

Is that in response to Half-Life?

I think that self-imposed poverty is a recipe for economic decline, because it reduces consumer demand and thus economic activity. It's the Paradox of Thrift.

Also, if everybody gets well-educated, then right-wingers are going to grumble louder and louder about how overeducated many people are.

One can't win against the right wing -- right-wingers are experts at moving goalposts.

 

[BH]

Yes, just like healthcare. Most conservatives are against universal government run healthcare or some sort of contraption like Obamacare. They say everyone should be more responsible and buy health insurance through private companies. Okay. Boom they do it. The people all of a sudden start buying health insurance through an employer plan or buy a private plan. Let's assume everyone does their research and get the best plan they can. Just to please the conservatives they are spending less than a dollar a day to eat. They walk or carpool to work. They do not go to the movies, ect.

But you know what? You got the same damn problem you would if you had universal healthcare. Because everyone has insurance, everyone goes to the doctor to get medical treatment. Oh wait, there are still deductibles and copays so you still have to face a death panel. Oops. Private policy didn't take care of that one.

And all these people buying or paying for insurance through insurance companies is taking its toll on the economy on other ways. Money spent on insurance isn't going to other things like forms of groceries, electronics, christmas gifts ect and people are getting thrown out of work. What's the solution there?

 

[BH]

Here is another thing I do not understand about conservatism, or at least how many conservatives seem to be to me.

It seems like if there is no money to be made doing something it simply isn't worth doing or making. For example it isn't worth the trouble finding a cancer cure if someone doesnt get paid bookoos of money trying to develop it and then get lots of profits selling it. Do conservatives really believe the saving of lives, even possibly their own one day is not a good enough reason to try to find a cure? It is only reasonable to find a cure if their is money to be made (and indirectly are saying their lives arent worth nothing if they dont bring in money)

 

[BH]

If everyone went to college,university, or trade school and learned a skill, if everyone saved everything they earned except for bare necessities, if no one ever smoked dope or shot dope, if no one got pregnant too young, yadda yadda, no one made any mistakes at all how are you going to give good paying jobs with benefits and retirement?

Is that in response to Half-Life?

I think that self-imposed poverty is a recipe for economic decline, because it reduces consumer demand and thus economic activity. It's the Paradox of Thrift.



Also, if everybody gets well-educated, then right-wingers are going to grumble louder and louder about how overeducated many people are.

One can't win against the right wing -- right-wingers are experts at moving goalposts.

It's a fantasy land and myth. There simply is a limit to how far hard work coupled with smarts can get you. Learn a skill they say. Okay, more skilled people in x out there more people able to do x job. Wages for that job go way down. And that if you can find a position for x skill because so many are trained for it now. And the same could be said for people trying to do skill a or skill b or c...

I think those of popular influence in our society should just be honest and admit that a lot of folks through no fault of their own are simply not going to have their luxury liner arrive no matter what they do. You still have to live and eat and these are themselves reason to work . You want some luxuries good. Work instead of bum. But just because you dont get rich or as much as someone else does not mean you did anything wrong.

 

[DBT]

Plus some jobs, however menial, are necessary and essential yet poorly paid.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's very simple. Jobs get outsourced to other countries because Dems pay people to not work (welfare) in this country.

When you pay people to not work, you need to find people willing to do those jobs, which means going overseas. Republicans are trying to stop the coddling handouts and Dems keep screaming "NO!!!" So, outsourcing will keep happening.

We also say, "Tighter border security will lessen the illegals coming in and stealing jobs from the people who Dems pay to not work." Dems also scream, "NOOO!! OPEN BORDERS!!!!!!"

Just mind-boggling stupidity.

Simple, obvious and very wrong.

Things get outsourced to places where it costs far below our minimum wage to hire people. Whether people will take the jobs or not is irrelevant. So long as you can accept the long lead times it's cheaper to ship stuff in from Asia than it is to ship it across the country. Large ships are an incredibly cheap means of moving things around.

And note that taking away welfare doesn't make people magically able to work.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you know what? You got the same damn problem you would if you had universal healthcare. Because everyone has insurance, everyone goes to the doctor to get medical treatment. Oh wait, there are still deductibles and copays so you still have to face a death panel. Oops. Private policy didn't take care of that one.

And all these people buying or paying for insurance through insurance companies is taking its toll on the economy on other ways. Money spent on insurance isn't going to other things like forms of groceries, electronics, christmas gifts ect and people are getting thrown out of work. What's the solution there?

The problem here is that you're assuming universal health care will work as you envision it.

Some of us are opposed because we don't trust the quality, not because we are opposed to the idea.

 

[Rhea]

Anyway, I used to smoke back then but I was in the phase of quitting. He would let me take a hit or 2 from his joint. But, I remember he paid $30 for 3.5 grams.:

They sell weed in grams now?
Wow. Feeling old.

 

[Rhea]

So there are plenty of highly payed jobs just waiting for lazy people to get educated and seize the opportunity? Enough well paid jobs to accommodate the whole working population?

Doesn't quite match Politesse's reality of their college classmates being unable to get meaningful work, now, does it.
Nor the lived experience of all the college kids I know.


Interesting disconnect.

 

[BH]

But you know what? You got the same damn problem you would if you had universal healthcare. Because everyone has insurance, everyone goes to the doctor to get medical treatment. Oh wait, there are still deductibles and copays so you still have to face a death panel. Oops. Private policy didn't take care of that one.

And all these people buying or paying for insurance through insurance companies is taking its toll on the economy on other ways. Money spent on insurance isn't going to other things like forms of groceries, electronics, christmas gifts ect and people are getting thrown out of work. What's the solution there?

The problem here is that you're assuming universal health care will work as you envision it.

Some of us are opposed because we don't trust the quality, not because we are opposed to the idea.

You misunderstand. Even if everyone did as those opposed to universal healthcare say and scrape to get private policy insurance or through their employer you will just have the same problem. Long lines, rationing, death panels, doctors trying to defraud and overcharge with human nature being what it is.

And you will effect the economy in bad ways because the money spent on insurance every month that is not used often is money not being spent on others things that could be purchased driving those suppliers into economic trouble.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you know what? You got the same damn problem you would if you had universal healthcare. Because everyone has insurance, everyone goes to the doctor to get medical treatment. Oh wait, there are still deductibles and copays so you still have to face a death panel. Oops. Private policy didn't take care of that one.

And all these people buying or paying for insurance through insurance companies is taking its toll on the economy on other ways. Money spent on insurance isn't going to other things like forms of groceries, electronics, christmas gifts ect and people are getting thrown out of work. What's the solution there?

The problem here is that you're assuming universal health care will work as you envision it.

Some of us are opposed because we don't trust the quality, not because we are opposed to the idea.

You misunderstand. Even if everyone did as those opposed to universal healthcare say and scrape to get private policy insurance or through their employer you will just have the same problem. Long lines, rationing, death panels, doctors trying to defraud and overcharge with human nature being what it is.

And you will effect the economy in bad ways because the money spent on insurance every month that is not used often is money not being spent on others things that could be purchased driving those suppliers into economic trouble.

Why do you assume those things have to be part of it??

I'm saying the fatal flaw to single-payer is that you have the same party paying the bills and making the standards for what is proper care. That makes it very easy to cut corners and the money involved provides a hell of an incentive to do so. (Yes, government isn't driven by profit, but money still matters--more tax = more squawking from the people.) The government exempts itself from accountability for it's actions.

That's why I'm suggesting something like subsidizing the ACA premiums to the tune of the cheapest policy you can buy--everyone's covered (you don't select, you get auto-placed in that cheapest policy) but there's still someone who can be held accountable for misdeeds. Then we can talk about exactly what sort of coverage to provide.

 

[RVonse]

So long as you can accept the long lead times it's cheaper to ship stuff in from Asia than it is to ship it across the country. Large ships are an incredibly cheap means of moving things around.

It is actually cheaper to ship an item from China to St. Louis than it is to ship the same item from California to St Louis. I know this because I have bought items from China that are cheaper than just the ground flat rate from California, never mind the actual cost of the item.


But shipping from China is also heavily subsidized by the US post office. The special rates were put in place by the Clinton administration which Donald Trump is now attempting to dissolve.

If Trump has his way, China will not be subsidized by the US taxpayer any more.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So long as you can accept the long lead times it's cheaper to ship stuff in from Asia than it is to ship it across the country. Large ships are an incredibly cheap means of moving things around.

It is actually cheaper to ship an item from China to St. Louis than it is to ship the same item from California to St Louis. I know this because I have bought items from China that are cheaper than just the ground flat rate from California, never mind the actual cost of the item.


But shipping from China is also heavily subsidized by the US post office. The special rates were put in place by the Clinton administration which Donald Trump is now attempting to dissolve.

If Trump has his way, China will not be subsidized by the US taxpayer any more.

I'm not talking about the amount you actually pay--as you say, there is a flaw in how international postal rates are calculated (the rates actually made sense long ago, they haven't been updated to reflect the new reality)--but the actual cost to move an item. The cost per mile for a container on a ship is well below the cost per mile of any other means of moving it.