Ilhan Omar vs. Colorism

[none]

No idea why it is relevant whether I am called 'dude' or 'ma'am' when I buy skin-lightenging products for vitiligo, but you do you, luv.

I was commenting on outward appearances.
Your presentation could be deceitful but to you outward appearances govern gender and variations of pigment dictate race.
Completely fluid classifications.
But you you didn't parse sensibly.
Duh

Um, no. Gender identity is a thought in someone's head, so outward appearances have nothing to do with it.

Variations of pigment do not govern 'race', since my mother's vitiligo did not change her race.

Try again, none. Eventually you'll transcend your screen name, and get at least one thing right.

Oh my. I said dictate race. Fuck.
So what governs race?

 

[Metaphor]

Um, no. Gender identity is a thought in someone's head, so outward appearances have nothing to do with it.

Variations of pigment do not govern 'race', since my mother's vitiligo did not change her race.

Try again, none. Eventually you'll transcend your screen name, and get at least one thing right.

Oh my. I said dictate race. Fuck.
So what governs race?

Don't know. Why did you say 'variations of pigment dictate race'? Do you think my mother's vitiligo, which caused significant variation in her pigment, caused her to change race?

 

[none]

Um, no. Gender identity is a thought in someone's head, so outward appearances have nothing to do with it.

Variations of pigment do not govern 'race', since my mother's vitiligo did not change her race.

Try again, none. Eventually you'll transcend your screen name, and get at least one thing right.

Oh my. I said dictate race. Fuck.
So what governs race?

Don't know. Why did you say 'variations of pigment dictate race'? Do you think my mother's vitiligo, which caused significant variation in her pigment, caused her to change race?

Ah, there you go. I'm no arbitrary governor.

 

[TomC]

Don't know. Why did you say 'variations of pigment dictate race'? Do you think my mother's vitiligo, which caused significant variation in her pigment, caused her to change race?

Ah, there you go. I'm no arbitrary governor.

But you are difficult to understand and commonly demonstrate ignorance about the human race.

Vitiligo is a skin problem concerning pigmentation. It's not even about race, much less gender.
Feel free to educate yourself before demonstrating your ignorance.
Tom

 

[none]

Don't know. Why did you say 'variations of pigment dictate race'? Do you think my mother's vitiligo, which caused significant variation in her pigment, caused her to change race?

Ah, there you go. I'm no arbitrary governor.

But you are difficult to understand and commonly demonstrate ignorance about the human race.

Vitiligo is a skin problem concerning pigmentation. It's not even about race, much less gender.
Feel free to educate yourself before demonstrating your ignorance.
Tom

Oh really, we humans are no longer a species.
Yeah I'm fvcking more than happy to be ignorant.

 

[TomC]

But you are difficult to understand and commonly demonstrate ignorance about the human race.

Vitiligo is a skin problem concerning pigmentation. It's not even about race, much less gender.
Feel free to educate yourself before demonstrating your ignorance.
Tom

Oh really, we humans are no longer a species.
Yeah I'm fvcking more than happy to be ignorant.

This is the kind of post I'm referring to.
If you want to remain ignorant about the human species, you go right ahead.
Tom

 

[none]

But you are difficult to understand and commonly demonstrate ignorance about the human race.

Vitiligo is a skin problem concerning pigmentation. It's not even about race, much less gender.
Feel free to educate yourself before demonstrating your ignorance.
Tom

Oh really, we humans are no longer a species.
Yeah I'm fvcking more than happy to be ignorant.

This is the kind of post I'm referring to.
If you want to remain ignorant about the human species, you go right ahead.
Tom

I'm better off being ignorant of your condition.

 

[TomC]

This is the kind of post I'm referring to.
If you want to remain ignorant about the human species, you go right ahead.
Tom

I'm better off being ignorant of your condition.

The depth of your insight is an inspiration to us all.
Tom

 

[none]

This is the kind of post I'm referring to.
If you want to remain ignorant about the human species, you go right ahead.
Tom

I'm better off being ignorant of your condition.

The depth of your insight is an inspiration to us all.
Tom

I'm not offended.

 

[TomC]

The depth of your insight is an inspiration to us all.
Tom

I'm not offended.

You don't seem to understand what the word species means, perhaps you don't understand offended either.

Doesn't matter to me.
Tom

 

[none]

The depth of your insight is an inspiration to us all.
Tom

I'm not offended.

You don't seem to understand what the word species means, perhaps you don't understand offended either.

Doesn't matter to me.
Tom

Sir kind sir, not that I've verified your outward appearances.
Outward appearances was what I was commenting on.
No shit.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Skin-whitening products do not cause colourism; colourism caused skin-whitening products. Neither did big bad white people cause colourism. White skin was prized in Japanese society over a thousand years ago.

The point is that banning, or making harder to get, products that whiten skin will not reduce colourism. It will merely make life slightly more miserable for people who want to lighten their skin.

This. There is a very real problem as the most effective, cheapest approach to skin lightening is hazardous and should not be used. However, those products don't cause the problem.

The "problem" is evolutionary sexual selection. Women of every race tend to be a shade or so lighter than men. Probably the same reason why non-pregnant human women have enlarged breasts, as well as softer skin and softer facial features. It's what the boys want.

But what's valued?

Observation: Societies that have been industrialized for several generations generally value tans--darker skin. Societies that have not normally value lighter skin.

Why the difference? Could there be a proxy relationship involved? Observation: In every society I am aware of people value the skin tones of those with a historically high financial position.

In non-industrialized societies the common man works outdoors, the elite work indoors. Non-tanned skin is a sign of being elite.

In industrialized societies the common man works in the factory or office, the elite have leisure time which is often outdoors. Now tanned skin is a sign of being elite.

One cause rather than two. Barring additional evidence the simpler explanation wins.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Outward appearances.
Dude, or ma'am.

Speak Chinese. Then you don't care.

 

[Metaphor]

Saying that white men should not debate certain topics because of our race and gender is racist.


Oh, I understand that the Left wants to make everything political. That does not mean everything should be.

I stand by my statement. It is hysterical.

What do you know about being names like high-yella, and red-bone? Porch monkey or Tar Baby? Or the paper bag test or the ruler test? Are you now or have you ever been color struck?

What do you know of prominent black families like the Proctors, the Newmans, or the Butlers?

Or about the children's rhyme,

If you're light, you're alright.
If you're brown, stick around.
If you're black, get back

These are personal traumas of color, but let's talk more broadly.

Light skinned people are most likely to be hired and promoted than darker skinned people.
If you're an actor, producers would rather higher a light skinned actor for a role and then, if needed, put that actor in black face rather that hire a darker skinned actor.
Women and girls are still sent home from work and school for wearing their hair naturally.

Athletes have had braids cut at sporting events, and been applauded for what for the athletes was a public scalping.

Dark skinned children are more likely to be deemed in need of remedial learning, be labelled problem students and have physical problems like bad eyesight and hearing be written up as behavioral problems and/or "mental retardation."

Black kids aren't dumb, they are targeted. And the darker a child is, the earlier he's targeted, ground down and pushed into a stereotype.

And it's not just white folk who do this.

Black folk can be just as color-struck.

When Hattie McDaniel won the Oscar for Best Supporting Actress for GWTW, Walter White, president of the NAACP and the whitest looking black man you'll probably ever see, mounted a campaign to stop Hattie McDaniel from working and somehow to replace her with Lena Horne. Lena was lighter, prettier, more desirable and therefore a better representation of black womanhood than the darker, fatter, less lyrically voiced McDaniels.

Roles for McDaniels grew scarce, but no one would believe Lena Horne would be allowed by any white woman to be a maid around a white husband, so she didn't work much either. What roles she did get were usually singing spots that could be and often were cut out movies when shown in the South.

In the sixties when black is beautiful become a rallying cry, light-skinned black people fell out of favor for about ten minutes and were made to spend time and treasure trying to prove to people of all colors they were black enough.

It was and is insanity.

From light skinned slaves working in the big house and dark skinned slaves working in the fields to Zoe Saldana playing Nina Simone in black face and facial prosthetics, colorism has put limits on both the life chances and life expectancy of black people ever since Bacon's Rebellion and even further back.

Now I'm just a brown skinned woman who has lived with being favored or dismissed for no other reason than this pecan tan skin I've got. I've been hearing about, reading about, debating about and crying about colorism for the entire 56 year I've been on this planet.

What could I possibly know about this subject more than any white man?

Colorism is a subject deep and wide. It's political, it's personal, it is both blatant and nuanced.

But like I said

What do I know?


From the Harriet T and Ida B Gun Club and Sewing Circle this is me and I'm jessayin'.

Do you want to make it harder for men and women to lighten their skin?

 

[Trausti]

The "problem" is evolutionary sexual selection. Women of every race tend to be a shade or so lighter than men. Probably the same reason why non-pregnant human women have enlarged breasts, as well as softer skin and softer facial features. It's what the boys want.

But what's valued?

Whatever the boys like. White/Caucasian people are a good example of this. Asians, especially East Asians, can have white/pale skin, too. But the European phenotype, i.e, White people, didn’t appear until what, 6-7kya? Once it did, these new features (e.g., blonde hair) quickly become widespread. Hair color has nothing to do with fitness. So why the quick spread? Even megalithic men preferred blondes.

 

[Mediancat]

SPEAKING AS MOD:

Okay, folks, too much of the last page or so has been taken up by sniping one-liners, which doesn't really make for a productive discussion. Stick more to the topic and less to your opinions of each other.

Thank you.

Rob

 

[Toni]

It is customary for background as to the necessity of legislation being proposed be given, as well as background on who is most affected. Product safety is one issue but so is its target consumers, in this case, persons, especially women of color, are the major group experiencing negative effects from these products.

Even today, women of color are negatively impacted by racial stereotypes that favor light skin over dark skin, straighter hair over textured hair. These perceptions affect children from cradle throughout life, with negative impacts in school, employment, social relationships and medical care and policing, to name a few. Not only is product safety a legitimate concern of government but so is racism and discrimination in American society.

Because our society is still very largely segregated, it is unlikely that most legislators (usually white and male and often older, having grown up when such things were never considered) will be aware of either the safety or the social issues.

Skin-whitening products do not cause colourism; colourism caused skin-whitening products. Neither did big bad white people cause colourism. White skin was prized in Japanese society over a thousand years ago.

The point is that banning, or making harder to get, products that whiten skin will not reduce colourism. It will merely make life slightly more miserable for people who want to lighten their skin.

Your first sentence is irrelevant to anything I wrote.

The rest of it shows a considerable lack of understanding of cause/effect or social pressures within various groups, particularly (but not limited to) females.

 

[Toni]

I have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Outward appearances.
Dude, or ma'am.

No idea why it is relevant whether I am called 'dude' or 'ma'am' when I buy skin-lightenging products for vitiligo, but you do you, luv.

FWIW, my friends with vitiligo use makeup to darken their skin to match the portion of their skin that is not affected.

Some newer evidence suggests that the affected areas are not more susceptible to skin cancer, but if I were your mother (or you) I'd be very dedicated about sunblock.

 

[Toni]

Saying that white men should not debate certain topics because of our race and gender is racist.


Oh, I understand that the Left wants to make everything political. That does not mean everything should be.

I stand by my statement. It is hysterical.

What do you know about being names like high-yella, and red-bone? Porch monkey or Tar Baby? Or the paper bag test or the ruler test? Are you now or have you ever been color struck?

What do you know of prominent black families like the Proctors, the Newmans, or the Butlers?

Or about the children's rhyme,

If you're light, you're alright.
If you're brown, stick around.
If you're black, get back

These are personal traumas of color, but let's talk more broadly.

Light skinned people are most likely to be hired and promoted than darker skinned people.
If you're an actor, producers would rather higher a light skinned actor for a role and then, if needed, put that actor in black face rather that hire a darker skinned actor.
Women and girls are still sent home from work and school for wearing their hair naturally.

Athletes have had braids cut at sporting events, and been applauded for what for the athletes was a public scalping.

Dark skinned children are more likely to be deemed in need of remedial learning, be labelled problem students and have physical problems like bad eyesight and hearing be written up as behavioral problems and/or "mental retardation."

Black kids aren't dumb, they are targeted. And the darker a child is, the earlier he's targeted, ground down and pushed into a stereotype.

And it's not just white folk who do this.

Black folk can be just as color-struck.

When Hattie McDaniel won the Oscar for Best Supporting Actress for GWTW, Walter White, president of the NAACP and the whitest looking black man you'll probably ever see, mounted a campaign to stop Hattie McDaniel from working and somehow to replace her with Lena Horne. Lena was lighter, prettier, more desirable and therefore a better representation of black womanhood than the darker, fatter, less lyrically voiced McDaniels.

Roles for McDaniels grew scarce, but no one would believe Lena Horne would be allowed by any white woman to be a maid around a white husband, so she didn't work much either. What roles she did get were usually singing spots that could be and often were cut out movies when shown in the South.

In the sixties when black is beautiful become a rallying cry, light-skinned black people fell out of favor for about ten minutes and were made to spend time and treasure trying to prove to people of all colors they were black enough.

It was and is insanity.

From light skinned slaves working in the big house and dark skinned slaves working in the fields to Zoe Saldana playing Nina Simone in black face and facial prosthetics, colorism has put limits on both the life chances and life expectancy of black people ever since Bacon's Rebellion and even further back.

Now I'm just a brown skinned woman who has lived with being favored or dismissed for no other reason than this pecan tan skin I've got. I've been hearing about, reading about, debating about and crying about colorism for the entire 56 year I've been on this planet.

What could I possibly know about this subject more than any white man?

Colorism is a subject deep and wide. It's political, it's personal, it is both blatant and nuanced.

But like I said

What do I know?


From the Harriet T and Ida B Gun Club and Sewing Circle this is me and I'm jessayin'.

Do you want to make it harder for men and women to lighten their skin?

I'm not AA but I want to make it harder for dangerous products to make their way into the hands of insecure customers.

Additionally, and much, much, much harder to achieve: I'd like people to learn to accept their skin tones and for society to stop all of the insanity listed in AA's post.

 

[Toni]

Skin-whitening products do not cause colourism; colourism caused skin-whitening products. Neither did big bad white people cause colourism. White skin was prized in Japanese society over a thousand years ago.

The point is that banning, or making harder to get, products that whiten skin will not reduce colourism. It will merely make life slightly more miserable for people who want to lighten their skin.

This. There is a very real problem as the most effective, cheapest approach to skin lightening is hazardous and should not be used. However, those products don't cause the problem.

The "problem" is evolutionary sexual selection. Women of every race tend to be a shade or so lighter than men. Probably the same reason why non-pregnant human women have enlarged breasts, as well as softer skin and softer facial features. It's what the boys want.

This is certainly untrue on the face of it. There is no enhancement of melanin production that is sex linked. What may be true is that in general, in modern society (dating back the past few millennia) is that generally speaking, men did more outside labor and pursued more outdoor based pastimes compared with women whose work and recreation kept them more indoors. Moreover, it's a class distinction: Those who can afford to not work in fields tend to be lighter skinned; their skin does not darken as much because it has much less sun exposure. In virtually every single culture I've observed, there is a strong preference for lighter skin among males and females as 'more attractive' but this is more class related, however unconscious it may be. It *may* be more harshly applied towards women who are generally judged much more on the basis of their looks compared with men. So, lighter skin is perceived as more attractive because it seems to denote a higher class and also more delicate/refined person. Remember how Scarlet and her sisters had to protect their faces from the sun!