• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

I'm an equal opportunity defender of those whose guilt is in reasonable doubt - the case of Michael Giles

Axulus

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Messages
4,686
Location
Hallandale, FL
Basic Beliefs
Right leaning skeptic
In the spring of 2010, 26-year-old Michael Giles was on active duty with the Unites States Air Force and stationed in Tampa. The married father of three had recently finished two tours in the Middle East and was looking forward to a career in the military, says his family. One night in February, a friend invited Giles to party at a Tallahassee nightclub. Shorty after arriving, a fight broke out among members of fraternities from nearby Florida A&M University.

According to court documents, an argument quickly escalated into a brawl involving 30 to 40 young men.

Giles reportedly was not involved in the melee but, separated from his friends, went outside to the car where he had a gun, for which he had a concealed carry permit. Giles put the weapon in his pants pocket and searched the crowd for his friends. Suddenly, he says, someone from the crowd punched him. Knocked to the ground and in fear for his life, Giles says he pulled out the gun and fired one shot into the leg of his alleged attacker.

Three men were injured, wounded by bullet fragments. Giles was immediately arrested and charged with second-degree attempted murder.

Aside from his having no criminal background, Giles’ supporters argue that he was merely defending himself from an unprovoked attack. In fact, when testifying in the case, the man who punched Giles, Courtney Thrower, admitted that the assault was random. “The first person I get to I’m going to hit,” he remembered thinking.

Other witnesses testified that Thrower, having heard of an attack on one of his fraternity brothers, was outside of the nightclub pacing with his fists clenched and, in the middle of the brawl, “leapfrogged” from the crowd to hit Giles. Despite all of that, according to the Florida state prosecutors, Giles had no right to use deadly force that night.

“The evidence is clear here that the act of pointing a gun into a group of people, even if you’re not specifically deciding to kill them, is a crime,” said Assistant State Attorney Jack Campbell in his closing statements during the trial. “There is no self-defense that is applicable based on the evidence that’s before the jury.”

The defense argued, however, that Giles was justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believed that such force was necessary to prevent “imminent death or great bodily harm” to himself.

“He doesn’t have to think he’s going to get killed, even though people looking in from the outside thought someone could get killed,” said defense attorney Don Pumphrey in his closing. “If the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, where he had a right to stand, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.”

The jury disagreed however and Giles was ultimately convicted in August of 2011 of the lesser charge of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, a crime that comes with a mandatory minimum sentence of twenty years in the state of Florida. It is the same sentence Marissa Alexander received in her controversial case – a case recently awarded a new trial on appeal.

http://thegrio.com/2013/12/04/us-airman-stands-his-ground-in-florida-sentenced-to-25-years/

I think he may have had reasonable fear that his life was in danger or at reasonable risk of serious injury. That he went to his vehicle to retrieve a gun and then went back into the crowd is not an issue: he went back to find his friends. He was attacked unprovoked - any innocents that were injured in the act of defending himself is unfortunate but ultimately the fault of the attackers. I post this because I think it is a case where there is reasonable doubt to his guilt. It just didn't get much discussion on this forum because there is little disagreement. There is a reasonable possibility that his race was an influencing factor in his conviction, which is wrong.

If anyone is interested in seeing some right wing hypocrisy, a vigorous defense of Michael Giles, and the double standards they apply to this case vs. the Zimmerman case, read this thread that I started on a Christian forum:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99329

I am "Tinark" in the above thread.
 
Florida Man, thy name is Cracker.

The guy is a fucking vet, for chrissake! He aimed for the leg. While I question the wisdom of going back to get his gun, he certainly had at least as much right to fire it as Zimmerman had.
 
Florida Man, thy name is Cracker.

The guy is a fucking vet, for chrissake! He aimed for the leg. While I question the wisdom of going back to get his gun, he certainly had at least as much right to fire it as Zimmerman had.

Yes, exactly. Poor judgment prior to being put in a situation not criminal. What Zimmerman did is way more provacative then what Giles did, and even then I could see a case for reasonable doubt in his case (since I felt there were sufficient unknowns). What really has ne sick to my stomach is the 20 year minimum sentance Giles faces, which even the really extreme right wingers on that forum took issue with.
 
I'm surprised there hasn't been a motion to appeal the verdict to a higher court. Maybe Florida law doesn't allow it?

I sure as hell wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Gov. Scott to grant clemency. Not unless this case starts getting the kind of publicity that the Zimmerman-Martin case got.
 
I don't agree that he did a reasonable thing going to get his gun. There is a massive fistfight going on, and you want to wade into it with a gun? What better way to significantly increase the odds of a death? Anywhere you turn there will be another body to hit with ricochet, shrapnel or pass-through bullets. Bad idea from the start. Though that still doesn't make 20 years reasonable.
 
He went back to his car and got his gun, and while there is no duty to retreat - I do think the law should forbid him advancing. I have no problem whatsoever with his conviction (though 25 years is rather excessive when no one was killed). What I do have is a HUGE problem with is this outcome compared to George Zimmerman's.

Bottom line, Michael Giles was a black man with a gun. Of course he was convicted while most white shooters are not. But I am not in favor of NOT convicting in these cases in the interests of fairness. I would rather see people like George Zimmerman convicted and getting even longer sentences than 25 years.

"Stand Your Ground" does not mean "purposely put yourselves into positions where you get to shoot people." This is not a frelling video game.
 
Zimmerman was wrong, and this guy was wrong. Sorry, getting hit from behind in a crowd does not authorize someone to pull out a gun and start shooting. The fact Zimmerman got away with it should not mean anyone else should get away with it.
 
Since when did a fight become reasonable fear of being killed?

More to the point that is the bullshit of his claim. You think you need to get a gun for self-defense, but not call the Police?
 
There are two choices.

Do something about guns, or put people like this in jail.

Because he's going to jail so that there will be no rational restrictions on handguns that many other nations have employed.

If all he could own was a shotgun or a rifle he wouldn't be able to carry it around without people knowing.
 
There are two choices.

Do something about guns, or put people like this in jail.

Because he's going to jail so that there will be no rational restrictions on handguns that many other nations have employed.

If all he could own was a shotgun or a rifle he wouldn't be able to carry it around without people knowing.

This is a good point. This is what a carry permit wreaks. He got into this position because he had a gun to go get. Having a gun made him think getting his gun was a good idea. Getting his gun made him think using his gun was reasonable.

Without the gun, would he have waded into the melee? Without the gun, would he have even been hit?
 
There are two choices.

Do something about guns, or put people like this in jail.

Because he's going to jail so that there will be no rational restrictions on handguns that many other nations have employed.

If all he could own was a shotgun or a rifle he wouldn't be able to carry it around without people knowing.

This is a good point. This is what a carry permit wreaks. He got into this position because he had a gun to go get. Having a gun made him think getting his gun was a good idea. Getting his gun made him think using his gun was reasonable.

Without the gun, would he have waded into the melee? Without the gun, would he have even been hit?
Seems to me that firing a shot or two into the air might have been more effective. Works even better with a shotgun.
 
Seems to me that firing a shot or two into the air might have been more effective. Works even better with a shotgun.
Hell, just chambering a round with a shotgun makes people remember their manners.
According to several Navy shore patrol guys, that distinctive 'whissh-chick'...the only thing better for crowd control is showing up with a German Shepherd.
 
There are two choices.

Do something about guns, or put people like this in jail.

Because he's going to jail so that there will be no rational restrictions on handguns that many other nations have employed.

If all he could own was a shotgun or a rifle he wouldn't be able to carry it around without people knowing.

This is a good point. This is what a carry permit wreaks. He got into this position because he had a gun to go get. Having a gun made him think getting his gun was a good idea. Getting his gun made him think using his gun was reasonable.

Without the gun, would he have waded into the melee? Without the gun, would he have even been hit?
I think this looks past the critical point... since when was being hit a threat of life situation?
 
Florida Man, thy name is Cracker.

The guy is a fucking vet, for chrissake! He aimed for the leg. While I question the wisdom of going back to get his gun, he certainly had at least as much right to fire it as Zimmerman had.

Yes, exactly. Poor judgment prior to being put in a situation not criminal. What Zimmerman did is way more provacative then what Giles did, and even then I could see a case for reasonable doubt in his case (since I felt there were sufficient unknowns). What really has ne sick to my stomach is the 20 year minimum sentance Giles faces, which even the really extreme right wingers on that forum took issue with.

Poor judgment which leads to injury of another person is criminal.

I'm not the least bit sick over his sentence. Here is a person who left a dangerous situation and returned with a pistol. What reason could he have for doing this? Was he going to fire a shot in the air and break up the fight, the way the Sheriff does in the cowboy movies?

He claims he was looking for his friends. How does a pistol aid this mission? If he found a friend engaged in a fight, does he intend to show the pistol and rescue his friend.

That's a good plan, but pulling a gun after a fist fight is in progress is a deadly threat. Now, anyone else in the crowd has the legal right to shoot him, unless he shoots them first.

He fired into a crowd of people once and managed to injure 3 people. If you are sick to your stomach because he faces 20 years in prison, what symptoms would you show if he had missed his target and killed an uninvolved bystander?
 
This is a good point. This is what a carry permit wreaks. He got into this position because he had a gun to go get. Having a gun made him think getting his gun was a good idea. Getting his gun made him think using his gun was reasonable.

Without the gun, would he have waded into the melee? Without the gun, would he have even been hit?
Seems to me that firing a shot or two into the air might have been more effective. Works even better with a shotgun.

Bullets fired into the air must come down, and can be quite fatal to people that aren't anywhere near the incident.

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/01/03/10-year-old-girl-shot-in-head-by-stray-bullet-on-new-year-has-died/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/va-boy-7-dies-after-being-hit-by-stray-bullet-on-fourth-of-july/2013/07/05/5e555da0-e5de-11e2-80eb-3145e2994a55_story.html

http://www.click2houston.com/news/man-killed-by-stray-bullet-in-se-houston/30486556

I have no problem with this guy's sentence. I do think that what's done leading up to the shooting should matter, and be subject to legal scrutiny.
 
This is a normal exception to the rule that you can't advance into a threat--you can do so for the purpose of rescuing others in danger.

I can't see why he was convicted.
 
This is a normal exception to the rule that you can't advance into a threat--you can do so for the purpose of rescuing others in danger.

I can't see why he was convicted.

Did they ever establish that his friends were in danger? Were any of them injured?

Here is an academic question: Suppose the man who was hit by bullet fragments, happened to have a concealed carry permit, and also had his pistol with him. He hears the shot, feels the wound, and sees a man lying on the ground with a pistol pointed in his direction. He shoots the man on the ground.

Who is at fault in this scenario?
 
He made a decision from a position of relative safety to walk into a melee, he should have had a reasonable expectation of getting hurt. I do not believe he had the right to up the ante by bringing a gun in. His best defense was to keep himself outside in this case.
 
Back
Top Bottom