• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Impeachment II thread

Trump advisers say he hasn't shown remorse for the insurrection - CNNPolitics
Advisers to former President Donald Trump say he still has not expressed remorse for the siege at the US Capitol, which could end up being important for Senate jurors to consider after House impeachment managers on Wednesday released new video of the violent mob's assault on January 6.

One of the new clips show then-Vice President Mike Pence and his family being hustled away by Secret Service as the siege was under way. That affirms what Pence aides told CNN in the days following the deadly insurrection. Some of those aides were outraged with Trump and believed he had put his own vice president in danger.
Click to expand...
Ex-VP Pence has been keeping a low profile.
Another clip showed by the Democratic House managers depicted a Capitol Police officer directing Sen. Mitt Romney, R-Utah, away from the mob.

A former Romney adviser noted it is likely the officer saved the senator from serious injury or worse.

"But for the grace of God," the ex-adviser said.

As for the siege, an adviser said Trump wanted to see a show of force from his supporters that day.

"Trump likes force," one adviser said. "He saw people forcefully fighting for him," the adviser added.

That lines up with what a former senior White House official told CNN about Trump's reaction to the siege. The official said Trump was "loving" watching the mob.
Click to expand...
 
Shadowy Man said:
So, Mitch delayed the trial until after Trump was out of office, saying it needed to not be rushed, then says well you can’t convict a former President. Total dick move.
Click to expand...
So he decided to enable Trump once more. This after a lynch mob could have lynched many of his colleagues, and him also.


Jill Filipovic on Twitter: "So glad that @RepRaskin is pointing out that the attack on the Capitol had a practice run in Michigan -- and that Trump supported those attackers, and there were few consequences. Of course the extremists then escalated. And they will again if there aren't big consequences now." / Twitter

Rob Burwell on Twitter: "@JillFilipovic @KevinMKruse @RepRaskin I continue to hope someone makes the connection to the successful Brooks Brothers riot. Disrupting the count (probably) changed the outcome of a Presidential election just 20 years ago. Oh, and Roger Stone was involved." / Twitter
 
I live in Pence's home region, southern Indiana.

If I could, I'd commission a bill board on a major thoroughfare with a simple message.

The background would be a pic of that gallows Trump supporters erected outside the Capitol. The text would be:
"Hang Trump Not Pence!"
Tom
 
Donna Imam on Twitter: "GOP Congresswoman Jaime Herrera Beutler's statement has been formally entered into the #ImpeachmentTrial evidence, with no objection from Trump's defense team." / Twitter

Jaime Herrera Beutler on Twitter: "My impeachment statement: (link)

Daily News article: (link)

Telephone town hall article: (link)" / Twitter
Herrera Beutler “Yes” on Impeachment | Congresswoman Jaime Herrera Beutler

Herrera Beutler works hard to spread facts about Jan. 6, says her decision was personal not political | News | tdn.com

‘As Impeachable As It Gets’: Herrera Beutler Seizes Opportunity to Defend Impeachment Vote at Town Hall | News | chronline.com
She cited Trump's negligence. “Did he send anyone in to help? No. But he did place calls to senators while they were in lockdown. And you know what he said? He said ‘can you do something to further delay the electoral counting?’”

She's R-WA-03 in SW WA.
 
jab said:
barbos said:
Getting rid of Two-Party and Electoral College system in US is harder than getting rid of Putin in Russia.
Click to expand...
Two-party system is not a legal or constitutional requirement.
Click to expand...
But it's a result of our voting system - first past the post. Whoever gets the most votes wins.

Candidates with similar voter appeal tend to split the vote among them, thus making the spoiler effect.

There are lots of much better alternatives, though the voting and the counting are usually more complicated in them.
 
lpetrich said:
jab said:
barbos said:
Getting rid of Two-Party and Electoral College system in US is harder than getting rid of Putin in Russia.
Click to expand...
Two-party system is not a legal or constitutional requirement.
Click to expand...
But it's a result of our voting system - first past the post. Whoever gets the most votes wins.

Candidates with similar voter appeal tend to split the vote among them, thus making the spoiler effect.

There are lots of much better alternatives, though the voting and the counting are usually more complicated in them.
Click to expand...

Canada has a first-past the post voting system, and we have 5 political parties currently represented in our parliament. The problem, if you are going to have an Executive branch separated from the Legislative branch, is that the legislature needs a robust multi-party system.
 
 
CSPAN on Twitter: ".@RepRaskin requests the opportunity to subpoena Rep. Jaime Herrera Beutler as a witness. Full #ImpeachmentTrial video here: (links)" / Twitter
noting
Senate Votes to Hear Witness Testimony – Mother Jones
House Democratic impeachment manager Jamie Raskin won a motion on Saturday morning to subpoena witness testimony in Donald Trump’s impeachment trial after telling the Senate that Rep. Jamie Herrera Beutler, a Washington state Republican, had information and contemporaneous notes detailing a January 6 call between House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy and the former president. According to press reports and a statement released Friday by Herrera Beutler, the call grew heated after the president claimed his supporters weren’t responsible for the riot and failed to immediately respond to McCarthy’s request for help.
Click to expand...
CSPAN on Twitter: ".@RepRaskin requests the opportunity to subpoena Rep. Jaime Herrera Beutler as a witness.

Full #ImpeachmentTrial video here: (links)" / Twitter

The 5 Republicans who supported calling witnesses: Senators Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Mitt Romney, and Ben Sasse, and later Lindsey Graham.
 
I like this:
Adam Schiff on Twitter: "Trump’s defense:

Phony jurisdiction argument.

Claim Trump has a First Amendment right to violate his oath.

It’s not an insurrection if it fails.

He can’t incite if people came ready to be incited.

Even defending his election lies.

...It’s hard to defend the indefensible." / Twitter

New details about Trump-McCarthy shouting match show Trump refused to call off the rioters - CNNPolitics
Trump's comment set off what Republican lawmakers familiar with the call described as a shouting match between the two men. A furious McCarthy told the then-President the rioters were breaking into his office through the windows, and asked Trump, "Who the f--k do you think you are talking to?" according to a Republican lawmaker familiar with the call.

...
The Republican members of Congress said the exchange showed Trump had no intention of calling off the rioters even as lawmakers were pleading with him to intervene. Several said it amounted to a dereliction of his presidential duty.

"He is not a blameless observer. He was rooting for them," a Republican member of Congress said. "On January 13, Kevin McCarthy said on the floor of the House that the President bears responsibility and he does."
Click to expand...
 
Lawyers strike deal to prevent witness testimony in trial - POLITICO - "House impeachment managers are now giving their closing arguments."
House Democrats prosecuting the case against Trump blindsided Senate Democrats when they asked for witness testimony on Saturday morning, prompting a 55-45 vote in favor of calling witnesses. But the House managers caved less than two hours later when they agreed to enter a statement from Rep. Jaime Herrera Beutler (R-Wash.) into the record, rather than seek testimony from Herrera Beutler as the managers had previously requested.
Click to expand...
Disappointing. :(

I checked CNN, and as of this writing, the two sides are in their closing arguments.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
The House Managers have failed to push very hard that this attack was on one of them... that they were chanting for their Republican colleague to die. And Trump tweeted that Pence had failed him after they had made it into the Capitol. Even then, that probaby wouldn't make a difference, but it could swing a little more public support against Trump and his role in this.
Click to expand...

They did spend a lot of time on the direct threats to Pence and how Trump did nothing to stop it, even after hearing from a senator by phone that Pence had to be taken to safety right as it happened. That after hearing that, he even tweeted another attack on Pence.

Been impressed with the Dem case so far, on how thorough it’s been, going at it from lots of angles.

Lots of video of what happened, showing the violence against property and police, video and other records of insurgents saying they came there because of Trump, that this is what Trump wanted from them, and the "fight for Trump" chants. The violent chants against Pence, comments about being there to not only stop the count, but to kill Pence and Pelosi.

Went over Trump's rally speech (“when you catch someone in a fraud you're allowed to go by very different rules” “go to the Capitol” “fight like hell”) plus his statements in the months before and after the election claiming election fraud. His support of the Michigan protest at the Capitol, and how it was like a dry run. His attempted coercion of state officials. How he pressured the DOJ to step in.

Video of his history of violence promoting and condoning rhetoric. Like supporting the vehicle swarm on the Biden campaign bus, and that one of his supporters there was an also at the Capitol. And that violence had been committed by supporters already in DC in the days before. That his supporters, like the proud boys, have violent histories, that he told them to "stand by" and that they were proud to do so. Violence that day was foreseeable.

His repeated promotion of the rally to his supporters, spending millions on ads. His many attacks on Pence that day and preceding.

How he didn't try to stop it once underway, no urgent public statements, never called for the national guard. (Even if he had nothing to do with causing the insurrection, this dereliction alone is treasonous.) How he has never shown any remorse, and so that he would do it again.

That there are ongoing threats for more violence. Like charged insurrectionist Couy Griffin's comments after 1/6 about coming back with guns so blood is running out of the building. And his prior comments that "the only good democrat is a dead democrat," video of which Trump had retweeted and thanked him for. And Trump had long phone call with him and took photo with him in oval office.

Records of various extremist groups who considered 1/6 a great success.

Video statements from Republican officials, including some from Trump administration, condemning the attack and blaming Trump, even as it was happening, some pleading with him to tell his supporters to stop.

Accounts of the impact on those who work at the Capitol, from elected officials to police to custodial staff. Accounts of the racial slurs hurled at black police.

They went through the failed challenges in court.

The legal questions, like whether the First Amendment protects his conduct.

That Trump refused to testify (what innocent person would?), and adverse inference.

The only thing they were missing is directly implicating the Republicans sitting in front of them in the chamber. GQP members were necessarily implicated though even if not explicitly. It's hard to get a conviction when the jurors are accomplices to the accused. It’s a reverse Joker jury.

But I thought they did great, it was like a "this is your life" of Trump’s fascism in office, it's good that there is this record of it all at least.
 
Last edited:
This Rule 23 thing that Van der Veen keeps harping on. Something about not being able to divide the impeachment charge or charges up into sub-charges. So like, all the other efforts that Trump used in trying to overturn the election can have nothing to do with what happened on Jan 6th. The Dems didn't present them as additional charges but as evidence. As Raskin had explained earlier these other instances were evidence to back up the one impeachment charge. It had to be looked at together because that's the function of evidence in any trial. And it's funny that in Van der Veen's closing remarks he felt that the defense was free to bring up as many instances as he could from the acts of individual Congress people to journalists and media entities at large to support his client's case. Talk about double standards.

It was good to hear Raskin mention the first amendment issue again to clarify that they never sought to take away Trump's right to speak his mind. He'll continue to make false claims no matter what the outcome. And in doing so he'll go on to incriminate himself. Trump is the one who was trying to deprive the people from expressing their right to have their votes counted. Typical Trumpian strategy. Accuse the other side of what he himself is guilty of.
 
Acquitted again. Only these Republicans voted to protect the constitution the rule of law and democracy.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-trial-02-13-2021/

The Senate just voted to acquit former President Trump in his second impeachment trial. The vote was 57-43, with seven Republicans joining the Democrats. Senators needed a two-thirds majority to convict Trump.

These are the seven Republicans who voted to convict the former President:

Richard Burr
Bill Cassidy
Susan Collins
Lisa Murkowski
Mitt Romney
Ben Sasse
Pat Toomey
Click to expand...
 
ideologyhunter said:
Fuck the Repubs.
Click to expand...

62333_Simpsons-Nelson-Ha-Ha-clean.png
 
Trump acquitted in impeachment trial; 7 GOP Senators vote with Democrats to convict
Moments after the vote concluded, the former president issued a statement praising his legal team and thanking the senators and other members of Congress "who stood proudly for the Constitution we all revere and for the sacred legal principles at the heart of our country."

"This has been yet another phase of the greatest witch hunt in the history of our Country. No president has ever gone through anything like it," Trump said.
Click to expand...
Not even what Bill Clinton suffered?
Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., called the vote “the largest and most bipartisan vote in any impeachment trial in history," but noted it wasn't enough to secure a conviction.

The trial "was about choosing country over Donald Trump, and 43 Republican members chose Trump. They chose Trump. It should be a weight on their conscience today, and it shall be a weight on their conscience in the future," he said in a speech on the Senate floor.

...
n his closing argument, House manager Joe Neguse, D-Colo., argued, "The stakes could not be higher. Because the cold, hard truth is that what happened on January 6 can happen again. I fear, like many of you do, that the violence we saw on that terrible day may be just the beginning."
Click to expand...
Then Jamie Raskin.
Senators, this trial, in the final analysis, is not about Donald Trump. The country and the world know who Donald Trump is. This trial is about who we are, who we are," Raskin said.

Trump lawyer Michael van der Veen, meanwhile, insisted his client did nothing wrong and maintained he was the victim of vengeful Democrats and a biased news media. He called the impeachment proceedings a "charade from beginning to end."
Click to expand...
 
Mitch McConnell voted to acquit. This after getting the trial delayed until Trump was out of office. Then he maintained that Trump can't be impeached since he is out of office.

Yet,
After voting to acquit, McConnell blasted Trump for his "disgraceful dereliction of duty" and squarely laid the blame for the riot at Trump's door in what amounted to an endorsement of many of the arguments laid out by House impeachment managers in a speech on the Senate floor.

"There's no question — none — that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day," McConnell said.

McConnell had suggested in the email earlier in the day that Trump could still face other penalties.

"The Constitution makes perfectly clear that Presidential criminal misconduct while in office can be prosecuted after the President has left office, which in my view alleviates the otherwise troubling 'January exception' argument raised by the House," he wrote.
Click to expand...
Let's see how that turns out. He concedes much of the prosecution's case, yet nevertheless votes to acquit.
 
Rep. Jamie Raskin compared Trump's conduct to lighting a fire. If one started a fire, then watched as it burn, gloated over its burning, and did nothing to put it out, then one would be considered guilty of arson.

I'll now consider the career prospects of the Senators who voted each way. An important part of such prospects is re-election, so I will consider when they are up for re-election and whether they want to be re-elected. Senate terms are for 6 years, but Senate elections are staggered and Senators are divided into three classes:
  • Class I: Year 6n+2 - 2018, 2024 - D 21, R 10, I 2
  • Class II: Year 6n+4 - 2020, 2026 - D 13, R 20
  • Class III: Year 6n+6 - 2016, 2022 - D 14, R 20
I decided to do a chi-square test for significance. I lumped the Independents with the Democrats, and I went to Interactive Chi-Square Tests and filled in the table.
  • Chi-square value = 7.665
  • Degrees of freedom = 2
  • P-value = 0.022
For announced retirees, I went to Retirements shake up 2022 map as Republican senators eye exits - CNNPolitics

The Republican Senators who voted for impeachment:
  • Richard Burr NC - III - retiring
  • Susan Collins ME - II
  • Bill Cassidy LA - II
  • Lisa Murkowski AK - III
  • Mitt Romney UT - I
  • Ben Sasse NE - II
  • Pat Toomey PA - III - retiring
Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, and Rick Scott are also in Class I.
Tom Cotton, Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell, and Tommy Tuberville are also in Class II
Mike Lee, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, and Tim Scott are also in Class III.

The third retiree is Rob Portman OH, in Class III.

Of the five non-retiring Republican Senators who voted to impeach, three were in Class II, with a full six years till their next election. There was one each of Classes I and II.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom