In Florida, showing mental health struggles could get a child detained

[ZiprHead]

Advocates say the Baker Act, designed as a measure of last resort, is not used that way. The result: Kindergarteners can be forcibly committed to psych centers for exams.

When a fourth-grader in Florida was frustrated about having to sit out his afternoon recess, he penciled a word on an outdoor bench: kill. A teacher asked him about it, and he said it was what he wanted God to do to him.
His mother, Marah Marino, guessed he was hurt and angry. “He’s not a mature 10-year-old,” she said.

But soon, a sheriff’s deputy who was working in the school stepped in, using a controversial state law to order an involuntary psychiatric evaluation and confinement for up three days in a mental health facility. Marino, who rushed to the school after getting a call about the incident, was stunned, pleading with the officer and asking to be with her son.
The deputy drove away with the terrified boy, and Marino followed closely behind them in her car, watching her son stare out the back window, sobbing, his hand on the glass.


Every day in Florida, children and adolescents are involuntarily committed for psychiatric assessments under the Baker Act, a 1971 law. In fiscal year 2020-21, involuntary exams happened more than 38,000 times to children under 18 — an average of more than 100 a day and a nearly 80 percent increase in the past decade, according to the most recent data. The law is so deeply enmeshed into the state’s culture that it is widely used as a verb, as in: The 6-year-old was “Baker Acted.”

I'm not so sure this is a bad thing.

Florida’s reliance on forced psych exams is rising amid a national mental health crisis among school-aged children. The percentage of girls who reported depressive symptoms and suicidal thoughts climbed in 2021, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. There are too few clinicians for the expanding need for mental health care. And in Florida, Baker Act intakes hit a high. By contrast, the number for adults dropped, according to a report by the Baker Act Reporting Center at University of South Florida.

But then...

While the law is useful for the most serious cases, critics say, it is too often used with kids who have behavioral issues, students with disabilities and those who say something they don’t mean. Children as young as 5 or 6 have been temporarily committed, and opponents contend that some mental health facilities are profit-driven and substandard and fail to keep parents informed about their children.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not surprised--but this isn't just Florida. This is suicidal ideation, they've caught enough flak over ignoring it that the pendulum has swung the other way.

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm not surprised--but this isn't just Florida. This is suicidal ideation, they've caught enough flak over ignoring it that the pendulum has swung the other way.

We're talking a state where educators don't educate out of fear of the state government.

Florida is broken, parents are terrified, educators are terrified, and the Baker act has been used as a weapon for decades against minorities and the poor.

Instead of addressing the things that make Florida "Floriduh", they have laws that allow coordinated groups to attack less coordinated individuals with involuntary commitment.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think it would probably be better if there was a school psychologist who could speak to the child and do an evaluation and then determine what type of help the child needed. I doubt there are still school psychologists around in many states these days, so another suggestion would be to talk to the parents, and have them make an appointment with a psych doc, and if income and/or lack of health insurance is a problem, refer them to a mental health clinic. Hopefully, even Florida, which has a lot of very poor people, have those. Meanwhile, instruct the parents to have any guns or potent drugs, medications etc. locked up, and teach them any other safety issues to keep the child safe from any self inflicted harm.

I know that when I was a student nurse back in the 70s, there were children as young as 4 or 5 who were committed to mental institutions, but I would have thought that was no longer the case. Rushing a child to a mental hospital based on one threat of harm does seem like overkill to say the least. The parent or parents should be involved, assuming there are no signs of abuse, should be involved in these situations.

From what I've read, there is a very high rate of bullying in some schools there days, so it's possible that children who have death wishes have been bullied by their peers.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge on these cases. Almost all of the relevant data would be unavailable to us. This is highly personal stuff, we don't know what schools and teachers have done beforehand with individuals. This policy can be abused, but it might also save a child's life. Schools can appear to be hiding stuff in these reports, but they might also not be allowed to discuss any of it. It is very murky territory and it isn't simple to parse what is happening at the parent / teacher / school / police level.

From the article, it also indicates the system can be poorly managed and staffed. Taking a child from their home usually should be a last resort and that decision needs to be made by people with access to all relevant info as well as psychological health training. This being a red state, I've got to imagine it isn't well run enough or well guarded enough.

 

[Toni]

Well, in Virginia, a 6 year old shot his teacher. Not the first time he threatened her life. Obviously the child has extremely serious mental health issues. Would putting them in a psych ward have helped him? I don't know but I suspect we might find out. Certainly this case has put a lot of schools on edge.

I agree with Jimmy that it is unlikely that a psych facility for children in Florida is run well but I will say that I think that's likely true of most such facilities in any state. Sadly.

Taking a child from their home should be a last resort.

 

[Elixir]

Well, in Virginia, a 6 year old shot his teacher. Not the first time he threatened her life. Obviously the child has extremely serious mental health issues. Would putting them in a psych ward have helped him? I don't know but I suspect we might find out.

How might we find out? Put a random bunch of 6 yr olds in a psych ward, and see how many of them try to kill their teacher vs the group that wasn’t put into a psych ward?
This is VERY soft science.

 

[Toni]

Well, in Virginia, a 6 year old shot his teacher. Not the first time he threatened her life. Obviously the child has extremely serious mental health issues. Would putting them in a psych ward have helped him? I don't know but I suspect we might find out.

How might we find out? Put a random bunch of 6 yr olds in a psych ward, and see how many of them try to kill their teacher vs the group that wasn’t put into a psych ward?
This is VERY soft science.

I’m sorry—a lot going on and I was very sloppy in what/how I wrote. What I meant was that it seems likely that this particular 6 year old might end up in some kind of residential treatment facility—and that knowledge might become publi, and inevitably some years down the line, we might learn how that child has fared.

In this particular case of a six year old who deliberately shot his teacher and who had exhibited violent behavior to such an extent that usually one or both of his parents accompanied him to school: I see nothing but tragedy. What is happening with this child, who clearly has severe mental health issues, is heartbreaking for the child and for the parents and family, but also for everyone at that school, including the teacher and everything student in that class. Can you imagine if your child came home from school with the news that another 6 year old had shot the teacher?

I have no idea what the answer is. My school district had a specific program for children with such serious behavioral issues that it was deemed not appropriate to have some children in mainstream classrooms. A few of those children had been in my son’s kindergarten class—yes, a few, not just one or two. One of those children had been seriously abused since at least their toddler years and yet remained in the parent’s custody. A couple of the other children were….very obviously ….different.

In middle school, one of my kids had a locker right next to a kid with serious emotional behavioral problems: he credibly threatened to set my kid’s locker on fire. The school would do nothing and thought we should take it to the police. AFAIK, there wasn’t abuse at home. Other siblings seemed ok and indeed are still in the community with their own business. Just writing about this, I cannot help but remember just how many very young children I have known in this town of 25 thousand, who had extremely serious mental health issues as very young children—including preschoolers. Some of my kids’ former classmates have done or are still doing time for violent crimes. A couple spent time at my house when they were in elementary school. One we did eventually involve the police when they threatened , very credibly, to kill one of my kids. He’s doing time for attempted murder of someone else—arrested when he was an adult. That individual is another instance where horrific child abuse was done when he was growing up—bad enough his stepfather was actually arrested. Unlike one of the earlier kids who I mentioned: the police took no action when my friend reported seeing her parent bounce her off of a wall in their house when the child was 18 months old.

The kids who grew up in abusive homes or in homes where there was a lot of mental health abd/or addiction problems: it’s not really surprising that they had their own issues and some of them went to jail. But some grew up in loving homes, with competent, caring parents. Which it sounds as though the 6 year old in Virginia does have.

And I am thinking about a few of my kids' childhood/high school friends who spent a great deal of time in our home and who had extremely dysfunctional, even in one case, neglectful and it turns out I was correct: abusive homes. They are now young adults and raising children of their own. Each has their own struggles, especially with mental health issues and one struggles with alcohol but seems to be on a good path now. What was the difference for these kids? I wish I knew. I'm only grateful that some of these kids I knew who had very difficult struggles at home are doing very well. And....another family where the father murdered the mother in front of the police officers who had accompanied the mother to remove belongings from their home--and later hung himself in jail: Those kids are adults now and doing pretty well. Two run a business and have done some work in my house. Another sibling is a social worker in town. They had such a horrific childhood. How do they manage to be OK? Hell, how did my parents manage? Their childhoods were far from ideal.

We don’t do a good job with treating mental illness in adults and we do far worse with children.

It seems clear that the school was very hasty in sending the 10 year old to a mental health facility. It seems lazy, and like an over reach. But we don’t really know all the circumstances. And I imagine the school was extremely concerned about erring on the other side and having a child who was suicidal go unrecognized and end up hurting themselves or others.

Im sorry to have rambled on.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It seems clear that the school was very hasty in sending the 10 year old to a mental health facility. It seems lazy, and like an over reach. But we don’t really know all ANY OF the circumstances. And I imagine the school was extremely concerned about erring on the other side and having a child who was suicidal go unrecognized and end up hurting themselves or others.

Needed to fix a thing there.

We know nothing about this case or any of the others. There are several layers here. The child, how the school manages risks they observe (I mean imagine the child kills themselves and this hangs on the teacher), and the system both of admitting a child and the actual facility for the child. Each situation varies, a child could need help, but be sent to the absolutely worst place. Children generally shouldn't be admitted based on the word of a police officer (with training or not).

If something just happens out of the blue, probably can manage things internally, but we aren't privy to what has and hasn't been done to manage a student's mental health, by anyone. So all we have is trying to monitor the facilities where care is provided when children are placed there and managing who decides the child needs to be admitted in the first place. In the end, it is only our business if rights are being violated. This overlaps a lot with transgender teens where you have a decent number of people butting their asses into a conversation they have no information nor business being in.

 

[Jarhyn]

I wonder how long it will be before the state of FL starts Baker's Acting Trans kids into some kind of "normalization" camp.

Pretty much any time it becomes possible for a child to be removed from a school, from a home, from a life in this way for "mental health" problems, especially in an environment wherein there is political controversy attacking medical science and mental health institutions, this kind of measure must be held suspect.

 

[southernhybrid]

I found an article that imo, gives much better advice then sending a 10 year old who simply mentions he wants god to kill him to a mental hospital for an evaluation.

https://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/what-to-do-if-child-has-suicidal-thoughts

‌Although it’s not always obvious, you may detect early signs of suicidal thoughts in a child. They may include:

• Your child has actually said they want to kill themselves
• You find a suicide note in the form of a letter, email, social media post, or text message
• Your child finds no reason to live, feels hopeless, or considers themselves a burden to others
• Your child has tried to commit suicide before
• All of a sudden, your child seems like they are making final arrangements. They may say goodbye to friends or begin giving away their most valuable possessions
• Your child makes sudden dramatic changes, like losing interest in favorite activities, withdrawing from family and friends, changes in eating habits, disregard for personal hygiene, and sudden change in body weight
• Your child develops a sudden interest in dangerous items like guns, or you find pills for something you don’t know about
• If your child has been engaging in unexplainable risky behavior lately, it could be a red flag. Things to look out for include drug and substance abuse, self-inflicted injuries, seeking revenge, and fits of rage

Help a Child With Suicidal Thoughts​

‌Contrary to what you may think, talking about suicide with a suicidal child will not make the situation worse. Communicating with them about the issue makes them feel that you’re concerned about their wellbeing. It might open a gateway for your child to open up about their thoughts. Other strategies that may help include:‌
Identify triggers. Since there is no specific cause of suicidal ideation, the best chance of preventing realization is to know what triggers the thoughts. Mostly, it will be anything that brings about feelings of despair. Try to avoid such things as anniversaries of loss, listening to sad music, or leaving at-risk children alone.
It's essential to investigate and get to the bottom of bullying, physical abuse, or sexual trauma. It's been found that children who undergo these issues may be more at risk of suicidal ideation. Also, if your child has symptoms of mental illness such as depression, bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia, have them treated by a doctor to reduce the likelihood of developing suicidal thoughts. ‌
Have them promise not to do anything right now. As you have a conversation with your child, let them know that there is a difference between thoughts and actions. Explain that suicidal thoughts don’t have to become a reality. Instead, they can let the thoughts pass. By promising not to do anything drastic or to wait a week before considering taking action towards suicidal thoughts, you may help your child find time to recover from the underlying issue.‌
Keep your home suicide-proof. Get rid of or hide sharp items like knives and other blades, and keep medicines and other drugs like alcohol away. If they are on medication, be present when they’re taking it to prevent overdose accidents.‌
Know your child’s friends. It helps to know the people your child interacts with, even if they’re in their teens. Try to be on good terms with your kid’s friends, their parents, and school staff. In the event that your child is in danger, those close to them but away from home may be your best chance of finding out early enough. They may also be of great help when you want caring people around your child for the needed support.
Participate in therapy.
.

That all sounds like much better advice to me. Plus, it's very rare for anyone who contemplates suicide to do it immediately, especially children. We don't have all of the information about the child in the OP, but to me, it doesn't sound as if the Baker Act should have been used in that case.

The article says that therapy begins with showing love and empathy. Sending the kid to a mental hospital sure doesn't sound like a positive to me, especially if this was the first time the child said that he wished he was dead. For all we know, the kid may have been having a bad day or maybe he was hurt or embarrassed for missing recess. Kids say a lot of thing that they don't mean literally.

Btw, Florida does have school psychologists. I don't know if every school has one or if they are easy to access. But, there are better ways to help a child that says something like the one in the OP did. Talking to the child about why he felt that way should have been done before anything else. Florida is fucked up, but most of us already knew that.

 

[Gospel]

Im sorry to have rambled on.

Didn't want to quite the whole post. It wasn't a ramble. I think you did a great job in capturing the heartbreaking complexity, frustrations & concerns around the issue.

 

[Jarhyn]

I found an article that imo, gives much better advice then sending a 10 year old who simply mentions he wants god to kill him to a mental hospital for an evaluation.

https://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/what-to-do-if-child-has-suicidal-thoughts

‌Although it’s not always obvious, you may detect early signs of suicidal thoughts in a child. They may include:

• Your child has actually said they want to kill themselves
• You find a suicide note in the form of a letter, email, social media post, or text message
• Your child finds no reason to live, feels hopeless, or considers themselves a burden to others
• Your child has tried to commit suicide before
• All of a sudden, your child seems like they are making final arrangements. They may say goodbye to friends or begin giving away their most valuable possessions
• Your child makes sudden dramatic changes, like losing interest in favorite activities, withdrawing from family and friends, changes in eating habits, disregard for personal hygiene, and sudden change in body weight
• Your child develops a sudden interest in dangerous items like guns, or you find pills for something you don’t know about
• If your child has been engaging in unexplainable risky behavior lately, it could be a red flag. Things to look out for include drug and substance abuse, self-inflicted injuries, seeking revenge, and fits of rage

Help a Child With Suicidal Thoughts​

‌Contrary to what you may think, talking about suicide with a suicidal child will not make the situation worse. Communicating with them about the issue makes them feel that you’re concerned about their wellbeing. It might open a gateway for your child to open up about their thoughts. Other strategies that may help include:‌
Identify triggers. Since there is no specific cause of suicidal ideation, the best chance of preventing realization is to know what triggers the thoughts. Mostly, it will be anything that brings about feelings of despair. Try to avoid such things as anniversaries of loss, listening to sad music, or leaving at-risk children alone.
It's essential to investigate and get to the bottom of bullying, physical abuse, or sexual trauma. It's been found that children who undergo these issues may be more at risk of suicidal ideation. Also, if your child has symptoms of mental illness such as depression, bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia, have them treated by a doctor to reduce the likelihood of developing suicidal thoughts. ‌
Have them promise not to do anything right now. As you have a conversation with your child, let them know that there is a difference between thoughts and actions. Explain that suicidal thoughts don’t have to become a reality. Instead, they can let the thoughts pass. By promising not to do anything drastic or to wait a week before considering taking action towards suicidal thoughts, you may help your child find time to recover from the underlying issue.‌
Keep your home suicide-proof. Get rid of or hide sharp items like knives and other blades, and keep medicines and other drugs like alcohol away. If they are on medication, be present when they’re taking it to prevent overdose accidents.‌
Know your child’s friends. It helps to know the people your child interacts with, even if they’re in their teens. Try to be on good terms with your kid’s friends, their parents, and school staff. In the event that your child is in danger, those close to them but away from home may be your best chance of finding out early enough. They may also be of great help when you want caring people around your child for the needed support.
Participate in therapy.
.

That all sounds like much better advice to me. Plus, it's very rare for anyone who contemplates suicide to do it immediately, especially children. We don't have all of the information about the child in the OP, but to me, it doesn't sound as if the Baker Act should have been used in that case.

The article says that therapy begins with showing love and empathy. Sending the kid to a mental hospital sure doesn't sound like a positive to me, especially if this was the first time the child said that he wished he was dead. For all we know, the kid may have been having a bad day or maybe he was hurt or embarrassed for missing recess. Kids say a lot of thing that they don't mean literally.

Btw, Florida does have school psychologists. I don't know if every school has one or if they are easy to access. But, there are better ways to help a child that says something like the one in the OP did. Talking to the child about why he felt that way should have been done before anything else. Florida is fucked up, but most of us already knew that.

My expectation is that it's an opening experiment into how flexible the law is. As many LGBT kids are suicidal, or show signs of depression, this could be the Florida state plan to "deal with" the issue.

I will be willing to bet that the state will be sending LGBT kids to conversion therapies under the guise of suicide prevention before the year is out.

 

[Toni]

Im sorry to have rambled on.

Didn't want to quite the whole post. It wasn't a ramble. I think you did a great job in capturing the heartbreaking complexity, frustrations & concerns around the issue.

Thank you.

 

[Toni]

I wonder how long it will be before the state of FL starts Baker's Acting Trans kids into some kind of "normalization" camp.

Pretty much any time it becomes possible for a child to be removed from a school, from a home, from a life in this way for "mental health" problems, especially in an environment wherein there is political controversy attacking medical science and mental health institutions, this kind of measure must be held suspect.

Yes, that's an obvious and extremely serious concern.

 

[southernhybrid]

"My expectation is that it's an opening experiment into how flexible the law is. As many LGBT kids are suicidal, or show signs of depression, this could be the Florida state plan to "deal with" the issue.
I will be willing to bet that the state will be sending LGBT kids to conversion therapies under the guise of suicide prevention before the year is out."

I understand your concern but I certainly hope that teachers have more compassion and understanding when it comes to children who identify as gay or trans. If I were a parent of such a child in Florida or Alabama etc, I'd be looking to move to another state if at all possible. Of course, it's not always easy or possible for people to relocate.

Georgia is about to pass a law that is harmful to trans children, but at least if they are already receiving hormones or other types of therapy, it won't be stopped. I think the law, which will probably be signed soon, also allows very young children to receive hormonal therapy, if I read the law correctly. I think that's because there is more evidence that when children identify as trans at a very early age, it's more likely they aren't going through a phase but truly are transgendered. Sadly, there is no way to currently test for that, although I've read there has been research done on trans cadavers that gives evidence that the part of the brain that identifies gender doesn't match the sex of the body parts. One would hope that such evidence would help more people understand that being trans is a biological condition.

As one might expect, only Republicans agreed with the new bill. There are approximately 8000 children in Georgia who identify as trans. That's only about 1.4%, which sounds about right. Those who have received help, are much happier and less likely to have suicidal ideations or commit suicide than those who have been denied help. There is a clinic in Atlanta that helps trans children. The doctor doesn't do any surgery on children, which is a good thing, imo. She does offer hormone therapy and counseling. But, we're sort of off topic, although since there is a high rate of suicide among trans children, we're not totally off topic. The more I read about young trans children, the better understanding I have regarding their need for help at an early age, if at all possible. Nobody is talking about doing surgery on young children, despite what some claim.

I've also read that when someone changes their mind about transitioning, it's usually due to pressure from family, friends etc. It's not necessarily that they no longer identify as the opposite of their body parts. Sadly, it's always difficult being a minority, especially one that is't well understood, or goes against conservative religious beliefs.

I apologize if this needs to be moved to a different thread. I hope that we haven't derailed the OP too much.

 

[ZiprHead]

I apologize if this needs to be moved to a different thread. I hope that we haven't derailed the OP too much.

I think it's fine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It seems clear that the school was very hasty in sending the 10 year old to a mental health facility. It seems lazy, and like an over reach. But we don’t really know all the circumstances. And I imagine the school was extremely concerned about erring on the other side and having a child who was suicidal go unrecognized and end up hurting themselves or others.

Im sorry to have rambled on.

I suspect the school didn't have a choice--zero tolerance rules.

 

[bilby]

It seems clear that the school was very hasty in sending the 10 year old to a mental health facility. It seems lazy, and like an over reach. But we don’t really know all the circumstances. And I imagine the school was extremely concerned about erring on the other side and having a child who was suicidal go unrecognized and end up hurting themselves or others.

Im sorry to have rambled on.

I suspect the school didn't have a choice--zero tolerance rules.

Zero tolerance rules are the stupidest idea in human history.

 

[TomC]

Zero tolerance rules are the stupidest idea in human history.

I hear what you're saying.

But there's a flip side. Required actions cuts down on people just kicking the can down the road. The kid could also have exhibited self destructive tendencies for awhile, then offed himself. Nobody would take responsibility for it, even when the signs were right there.

There just aren't any ideal solutions.
Tom