Infinte Regress Timeline...

[bilby]

If what is "all" what, why can't who close what interval?

Not one element of your question is comprehensible to me; can you be a little more explicit please?

"All" is infinite time.

OK, so if what is infinite time, why cant who close what interval?

 

[skepticalbip]

Nothing "passes". I am in the "reference frame" that contains time. All the past events that have already occured are on my right. All the future events that will occur are on my left. I am today. At midnight, I will put all the events that occured today neatly in line to my right. It is a hell of a job but, hey, sombody's gotta do it.

So if the entire set of an infinite number of days, let's give it the cardinality of the natural numbers, passes jumps from your left to your right, are you saying that it didn't start at 1?

Are you still trying to say that an unbounded infinity has a beginning?

 

[ryan]

"All" is infinite time.

OK, so if what is infinite time, why cant who close what interval?

Stop wasting time.

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So if the entire set of an infinite number of days, let's give it the cardinality of the natural numbers, passes jumps from your left to your right, are you saying that it didn't start at 1?

Are you still trying to say that an unbounded infinity has a beginning?

All of infinity does.

 

[skepticalbip]

So if the entire set of an infinite number of days, let's give it the cardinality of the natural numbers, passes jumps from your left to your right, are you saying that it didn't start at 1?

Are you still trying to say that an unbounded infinity has a beginning?

All of infinity does.

So do you have a date for when we will reach the end of future time? I would like to prepare myself.

 

[ryan]

So if the entire set of an infinite number of days, let's give it the cardinality of the natural numbers, passes jumps from your left to your right, are you saying that it didn't start at 1?

Are you still trying to say that an unbounded infinity has a beginning?

All of infinity does.

So do you have a date for when we will reach the end of future time? I would like to prepare myself.

in an infinite number of days

 

[untermensche]

Yes assuming an infinite past makes concluding an infinite past easy.

But an infinite number of events is a number of events that never finishes happening. A number of events that never finishes happening can't have already happened before a present moment.

WHY?

IF every day of the infinite past allowed for a days worth of events to occur, then how could an infinite number of events not have occurred in an infinite number of days?

I said they can. Infinite events can occur in infinite time, but what that means is; events that never end can fit into time that never ends.

What infinite events can't do is finish occurring before any present moment. And at every present moment the previous moments have finished occurring.

 

[bilby]

OK, so if what is infinite time, why cant who close what interval?

Stop wasting time.

You asked a question. The question contains a number of undefined meta-syntactic variables. I am not a mind reader; I cannot answer the question until you tell me what those stand for.

Your question was: "If it's "all", then why can't we close the interval?". You have told me what "all' is supposed to mean, which leaves "If it's infinite time, then why can't we close the interval?"

I cannot answer it until you specify what the terms in bold represent. I am not the one wasting time here. If what is infinite time, why can't we close the interval between what and what? I have no idea what you are trying to ask.

 

[skepticalbip]

WHY?

IF every day of the infinite past allowed for a days worth of events to occur, then how could an infinite number of events not have occurred in an infinite number of days?

I said they can. Infinite events can occur in infinite time, but what that means is; events that never end can fit into time that never ends.

What infinite events can't do is finish occurring before any present moment. And at every present moment the previous moments have finished occurring.

I'm sorry. I can make no sense of that.

Do you think your "argument" holds for an infinite future?

Can an infinite number of events occur in an infinite future? If so, then why can they not in an infinite past? Remember we are looking at a mirror image between future and past.

The answer does not mean that the past is infinite. it just means that it is one of the possibilities. ONly science can tell us which is reality.

 

[ryan]

Stop wasting time.

You asked a question. The question contains a number of undefined meta-syntactic variables. I am not a mind reader; I cannot answer the question until you tell me what those stand for.

Your question was: "If it's "all", then why can't we close the interval?". You have told me what "all' is supposed to mean, which leaves "If it's infinite time, then why can't we close the interval?"

I cannot answer it until you specify what the terms in bold represent. I am not the one wasting time here. If what is infinite time, why can't we close the interval between what and what? I have no idea what you are trying to ask.

"It" is time, "interval" of time.

 

[bilby]

You asked a question. The question contains a number of undefined meta-syntactic variables. I am not a mind reader; I cannot answer the question until you tell me what those stand for.

Your question was: "If it's "all", then why can't we close the interval?". You have told me what "all' is supposed to mean, which leaves "If it's infinite time, then why can't we close the interval?"

I cannot answer it until you specify what the terms in bold represent. I am not the one wasting time here. If what is infinite time, why can't we close the interval between what and what? I have no idea what you are trying to ask.

"It" is time, "interval" of time.

So you are asking "If time is infinite time, then why can't we close the interval of time?".

I am sorry, I still have no idea what you are trying to ask me.

 

[ryan]

"It" is time, "interval" of time.

So you are asking "If time is infinite time, then why can't we close the interval of time?".

I am sorry, I still have no idea what you are trying to ask me.

You have to make this painful don't you.

If an infinite number of units of time can pass after today, then the interval of time from 0 to infinity has the maximum element of infinity.

 

[untermensche]

I said they can. Infinite events can occur in infinite time, but what that means is; events that never end can fit into time that never ends.

What infinite events can't do is finish occurring before any present moment. And at every present moment the previous moments have finished occurring.

I'm sorry. I can make no sense of that.

Do you think your "argument" holds for an infinite future?

Yes. My argument holds for the future. If the future is infinite it is an amount of time that will never finish. If the future is infinite we will never reach an end of time in the future. It will go on and on.

And if the past is infinite it too goes on and on.

But if the amount of time in the past has no end, how did we reach the end of it at a present moment?

A present moment means all the present moments before it have finished.

 

[skepticalbip]

I'm sorry. I can make no sense of that.

Do you think your "argument" holds for an infinite future?

Yes. My argument holds for the future. If the future is infinite it is an amount of time that will never finish. If the future is infinite we will never reach an end of time in the future. It will go on and on.

And if the past is infinite it too goes on and on.

But if the amount of time in the past has no end, how did we reach the end of it at a present moment?

A present moment means all the present moments before it have finished.

You already realized that with your undersatnding that our now is the start for the past just as it is the start for the future. Both the past and the future extend infinitely from our now, only in opposite directions... Mirror images.

.......+5.+4.+2.+1 today .-1 .-2 .-3 .-4 .-5..........


Or take it a day at a time. Could all the events of yesterday happen yesterday? All the events of the day before happen on that day? All the event of the previous day happen on that day?....... n. At the end of each day (and the day's events) it is added to the past pushing all previous days one day further into the past.
If each day's events could happen during the day then why can't an infinite number of days events happen in an infinite number of days?

 

[bilby]

So you are asking "If time is infinite time, then why can't we close the interval of time?".

I am sorry, I still have no idea what you are trying to ask me.

You have to make this painful don't you.

If an infinite number of units of time can pass after today, then the interval of time from 0 to infinity has the maximum element of infinity.

No. Infinity is not a number; it is not an element in an infinite set. An infinite set does not have a 'maximum element' (if by 'maximum element' you mean the last element in the set when the set is ordered such that its closed end (if any) is listed first).

It is nonsensical to talk of an interval from 0 to infinity. An interval has two ends; infinity is not an end, it is the absence of an end.

 

[ryan]

You have to make this painful don't you.

If an infinite number of units of time can pass after today, then the interval of time from 0 to infinity has the maximum element of infinity.

No. Infinity is not a number; it is not an element in an infinite set. An infinite set does not have a 'maximum element' (if by 'maximum element' you mean the last element in the set when the set is ordered such that its closed end (if any) is listed first).

It is nonsensical to talk of an interval from 0 to infinity. An interval has two ends; infinity is not an end, it is the absence of an end.

See (10) in, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/AffinelyExtendedRealNumbers.html

 

[bilby]

No. Infinity is not a number; it is not an element in an infinite set. An infinite set does not have a 'maximum element' (if by 'maximum element' you mean the last element in the set when the set is ordered such that its closed end (if any) is listed first).

It is nonsensical to talk of an interval from 0 to infinity. An interval has two ends; infinity is not an end, it is the absence of an end.

See (10) in, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/AffinelyExtendedRealNumbers.html

Yes, there are some infinite sets with both upper and lower limits. These are not, however, relevant to the present discussion, where we are debating the existence or otherwise, of infinite regress. It doesn't matter, for our discussion, whether any given bounded period of time can be divided into an infinite number of smaller parts; the question is, is time unbounded in the past. I am ignoring the irrelevant, for the sake of simplicity; I advise you to do the same.

Time that has a beginning and an end is not infinite regress, regardless of our ability (or otherwise) to divide it infinitely, for the same reason that the arrow hits the tortoise, regardless of our ability to divide the distance it travels into an infinite number of fractional parts.

 

[Juma]

So you are asking "If time is infinite time, then why can't we close the interval of time?".

I am sorry, I still have no idea what you are trying to ask me.

You have to make this painful don't you.

If an infinite number of units of time can pass after today, then the interval of time from 0 to infinity has the maximum element of infinity.

Why are you talking about "pass"? None of us are claiming that an infinite interval of time "passes". I dont have clue what that even means.

Normally "the passage of time" refers to the constant changes due to our speed along the time dimension.
It is a poetic description of ageing.
Not a requirement of infinite time intervals.

 

[Mageth]

I'm sorry. I can make no sense of that.

Do you think your "argument" holds for an infinite future?

Yes. My argument holds for the future. If the future is infinite it is an amount of time that will never finish. If the future is infinite we will never reach an end of time in the future. It will go on and on.

And if the past is infinite it too goes on and on.

But if the amount of time in the past has no end,

If time in the past is infinite, then time had no beginning. But time has a present moment, whether finite or infinite. Not much use as time if it doesn't. And we are at the present moment. Aren't we?

how did we reach the end of it at a present moment?

We don't reach the present moment. We are always at the present moment. That's how time works. And that's how time got to the present moment...by always being at the present moment.

You're asking how we could possibly cross what we've already crossed. The past has already been crossed, whether finite or infinite.

A present moment means all the present moments before it have finished.

OK. But that's not inconsistent with no beginning to time. Tiime has or is at a present moment whether time in the past had a beginning or not. And we, unsurprisingly, are at the present moment.

It's really that simple.

 

[NobleSavage]

Any conclusions after 220 pages? (not being sarcastic).

 

[ryan]

See (10) in, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/AffinelyExtendedRealNumbers.html

Yes, there are some infinite sets with both upper and lower limits. These are not, however, relevant to the present discussion, where we are debating the existence or otherwise, of infinite regress. It doesn't matter, for our discussion, whether any given bounded period of time can be divided into an infinite number of smaller parts; the question is, is time unbounded in the past. I am ignoring the irrelevant, for the sake of simplicity; I advise you to do the same.

Time that has a beginning and an end is not infinite regress, regardless of our ability (or otherwise) to divide it infinitely, for the same reason that the arrow hits the tortoise, regardless of our ability to divide the distance it travels into an infinite number of fractional parts.

nm