Infinte Regress Timeline...

[ryan]

So maybe we have found the reason why infinities in reality must be avoided.

What? Nature must avoid infinities because you cannot handle them?

Perhaps I should have said that this is just too much for me to take on right now. If I had a lot more time, I would love to stay on this thread to battle it out whether the answer agrees with me or not. I hate giving up, but I am giving up.

Of course I will post something if I have some amazingly profound to add to the topic.

 

[untermensche]

If I gave you infinite time you would never finish counting the positive integers.

If I had been counting since an infinite time ago, there is no reason why I couldn't have finished.

Here is your misunderstanding.

There is no end to the positive integers.

You can't ever finish counting, no matter how much time I give you.

Just like infinite prior present moments can't have finished at the present moment. If they are infinite they never finish, like the positive integers.

 

[bilby]

If I had been counting since an infinite time ago, there is no reason why I couldn't have finished.

Here is your misunderstanding.

There is no end to the positive integers.

You can't ever finish counting, no matter how much time I give you.

Just like infinite prior present moments can't have finished at the present moment. If they are infinite they never finish, like the positive integers.

How about those negative integers?

They are both infinite, and have a maximum value.

Funny that. It's almost as if the thing you are declaring to be impossible is trivially easy to comprehend.

Still, I am sure you must be smarter than everyone who has a clue, so it should be no drama for you to show exactly why this is wrong.

 

[untermensche]

Here is your misunderstanding.

There is no end to the positive integers.

You can't ever finish counting, no matter how much time I give you.

Just like infinite prior present moments can't have finished at the present moment. If they are infinite they never finish, like the positive integers.

How about those negative integers?

They are both infinite, and have a maximum value.

Funny that. It's almost as if the thing you are declaring to be impossible is trivially easy to comprehend.

Still, I am sure you must be smarter than everyone who has a clue, so it should be no drama for you to show exactly why this is wrong.

Go ahead. Try to count the negative integers. I will give you infinite time.

And you will never finish.

Just like infinite prior moments would never finish. They could not have finished at the present moment.

 

[skepticalbip]

How about those negative integers?

They are both infinite, and have a maximum value.

Funny that. It's almost as if the thing you are declaring to be impossible is trivially easy to comprehend.

Still, I am sure you must be smarter than everyone who has a clue, so it should be no drama for you to show exactly why this is wrong.

Go ahead. Try to count the negative integers. I will give you infinite time.

And you will never finish.

Just like infinite prior moments would never finish. They could not have finished at the present moment.

Exactly.
Prior moments began NOW and extend infinitely into the past. They never finish. Began counting negative integers now and you will never finish.

There is only one end to this infinity. That is where you have to start from because there is no defined other end to start from.

 

[untermensche]

Go ahead. Try to count the negative integers. I will give you infinite time.

And you will never finish.

Just like infinite prior moments would never finish. They could not have finished at the present moment.

Exactly.
Prior moments began NOW and extend infinitely into the past. They never finish. Began counting negative integers now and you will never finish.

There is only one end to this infinity. That is where you have to start from because there is no defined other end.

The prior moment didn't begin at the present moment. It preceded it. It came before it.

Infinite prior moments can't come before the present moment. If they were an infinite amount of prior moments then they would never finish. They couldn't have finished at the present moment which is not a prior moment so it means ALL the prior moments have come and gone.

 

[skepticalbip]

Exactly.
Prior moments began NOW and extend infinitely into the past. They never finish. Began counting negative integers now and you will never finish.

There is only one end to this infinity. That is where you have to start from because there is no defined other end.

Infinite prior moments can't come before the present moment. .

That is what makes them prior. Look up the meaning of prior. If they have to come after the present moment then they are the future.

 

[untermensche]

Infinite prior moments can't come before the present moment. .

That is what makes them prior. Look up the meaning of prior. If they have to come after the present moment then they are the future.

Prior moments come before the present moment.

But INFINITE prior moments can't come before the present moment.

You can't finish counting the negative integers before the present moment, even if I give you infinite prior moments to do it in.

 

[bilby]

That is what makes them prior. Look up the meaning of prior. If they have to come after the present moment then they are the future.

Prior moments come before the present moment.

But INFINITE prior moments can't come before the present moment.

You can't finish counting the negative integers before the present moment, even if I give you infinite prior moments to do it in.

Why not?

Insisting something repeatedly isn't the same as showing it to be logical.

This is simply you re-stating your unfounded belief.

Why should I take your word for it that what you say can't be done actually can't be done?

 

[untermensche]

Prior moments come before the present moment.

But INFINITE prior moments can't come before the present moment.

You can't finish counting the negative integers before the present moment, even if I give you infinite prior moments to do it in.

Why not?

Insisting something repeatedly isn't the same as showing it to be logical.

This is simply you re-stating your unfounded belief.

Why should I take your word for it that what you say can't be done actually can't be done?

No, it isn't just my claim. You can never finish counting the negative integers. Even if you have infinite time.

If each prior moment is represented by a negative integer it is impossible to count all of them before the present moment.

The present moment is not a prior moment so we know all the prior moments must finish before the present moment can occur.

If there are infinite prior moments they can't finish at the present moment. Just like counting the negative integers can't finish at the present moment. It can't finish no matter how much time you have.

 

[skepticalbip]

Why not?

Insisting something repeatedly isn't the same as showing it to be logical.

This is simply you re-stating your unfounded belief.

Why should I take your word for it that what you say can't be done actually can't be done?

No, it isn't just my claim. You can never finish counting the negative integers. Even if you have infinite time.

If each prior moment is represented by a negative integer it is impossible to count all of them before the present moment.

The present moment is not a prior moment so we know all the prior moments must finish before the present moment can occur.

If there are infinite prior moments they can't finish at the present moment. Just like counting the negative integers can't finish at the present moment. It can't finish no matter how much time you have.

Start counting with yesterday, then the day before yesterday, then three days ago, then four days ago,............>

Let me know when you run out of days before you run out of integers.

I'll wait....

 

[untermensche]

No, it isn't just my claim. You can never finish counting the negative integers. Even if you have infinite time.

If each prior moment is represented by a negative integer it is impossible to count all of them before the present moment.

The present moment is not a prior moment so we know all the prior moments must finish before the present moment can occur.

If there are infinite prior moments they can't finish at the present moment. Just like counting the negative integers can't finish at the present moment. It can't finish no matter how much time you have.

Start counting with yesterday, then the day before yesterday, then three days ago, then four days ago,............>

Let me know when you run out of days before you run out of integers.

I'll wait....

I agree.

If every prior moment represented an integer then they could never finish at the present moment.

To have a present moment means all the prior moments have finished.

 

[bilby]

Why not?

Insisting something repeatedly isn't the same as showing it to be logical.

This is simply you re-stating your unfounded belief.

Why should I take your word for it that what you say can't be done actually can't be done?

No, it isn't just my claim. You can never finish counting the negative integers. Even if you have infinite time.

So they are directly analogous to time without beginning. 'Infinite' time, if you would.

If each prior moment is represented by a negative integer it is impossible to count all of them before the present moment.

Indeed. It would be silly to even try. But that doesn't mean that the past must be finite; only that if it isn't, it has no beginning - which is fairly obvious if you think about it.

The present moment is not a prior moment so we know all the prior moments must finish before the present moment can occur.

So what? We are, observably, at the present. So all of the past is done. Even if it is infinite.

If there are infinite prior moments they can't finish at the present moment. Just like counting the negative integers can't finish at the present moment. It can't finish no matter how much time you have.

You can't finish counting the negative integers, but you CAN start counting them. There is no 'earliest point in time', but there is a most recent point in time. The past has no start, but it ends at the present. Or if you look back from here, it starts at the present, and has no 'end' - ie, it is infinite.

 

[untermensche]

No, it isn't just my claim. You can never finish counting the negative integers. Even if you have infinite time.

So they are directly analogous to time without beginning. 'Infinite' time, if you would.

Time that never finishes.

If each prior moment is represented by a negative integer it is impossible to count all of them before the present moment.

Indeed. It would be silly to even try. But that doesn't mean that the past must be finite; only that if it isn't, it has no beginning - which is fairly obvious if you think about it.

It means infinite prior moments can't have "occurred" before the present moment. Something that never finishes can't have finished before the present moment. It never finishes.

The present moment is not a prior moment so we know all the prior moments must finish before the present moment can occur.

So what? We are, observably, at the present. So all of the past is done. Even if it is infinite.

Absolutely not.

If the number of prior moments to any present moment were infinite then that present moment could never arrive.

The infinite prior moments would never finish for it to happen.

The fact that we experience a present moment means the number of prior moments could not have been without end. They could not have been infinite.

If there are infinite prior moments they can't finish at the present moment. Just like counting the negative integers can't finish at the present moment. It can't finish no matter how much time you have.

You can't finish counting the negative integers, but you CAN start counting them. There is no 'earliest point in time', but there is a most recent point in time. The past has no start, but it ends at the present. Or if you look back from here, it starts at the present, and has no 'end' - ie, it is infinite.

Let the negative integers represent prior moments.

Now start counting.

If they are infinite you will never finish.

If they never finish they can't have finished at any present moment.

 

[bilby]

So they are directly analogous to time without beginning. 'Infinite' time, if you would.

Time that never finishes.

If each prior moment is represented by a negative integer it is impossible to count all of them before the present moment.

Indeed. It would be silly to even try. But that doesn't mean that the past must be finite; only that if it isn't, it has no beginning - which is fairly obvious if you think about it.

It means infinite prior moments can't have "occurred" before the present moment. Something that never finishes can't have finished before the present moment. It never finishes.

The present moment is not a prior moment so we know all the prior moments must finish before the present moment can occur.

So what? We are, observably, at the present. So all of the past is done. Even if it is infinite.

Absolutely not.

If the number of prior moments to any present moment were infinite then that present moment could never arrive.

The infinite prior moments would never finish for it to happen.

The fact that we experience a present moment means the number of prior moments could not have been without end. They could not have been infinite.

If there are infinite prior moments they can't finish at the present moment. Just like counting the negative integers can't finish at the present moment. It can't finish no matter how much time you have.

You can't finish counting the negative integers, but you CAN start counting them. There is no 'earliest point in time', but there is a most recent point in time. The past has no start, but it ends at the present. Or if you look back from here, it starts at the present, and has no 'end' - ie, it is infinite.

Let the negative integers represent prior moments.

Now start counting.

If they are infinite you will never finish.

If they never finish they can't have finished at any present moment.

I started at a present moment (how could I have started anywhere else?).

I will never finish, because the infinite past never started. It was always there, and always has been.

 

[untermensche]

I started at a present moment (how could I have started anywhere else?).

I will never finish, because the infinite past never started. It was always there, and always has been.

Your argument assumes every moment in time is exactly like every other.

But every moment in time is unique and unlike every other moment in time.

You are saying that before this unique moment in time known as the present infinite unique moments in time came first.

If those unique moments were infinite they would never finish to allow the unique moment known as the present to occur.

 

[Kharakov]

If those unique moments were infinite they would never finish to allow the unique moment known as the present to occur.

Eternity does not have a beginning or an end.

 

[untermensche]

If those unique moments were infinite they would never finish to allow the unique moment known as the present to occur.

Eternity does not have a beginning or an end.

That is the definition.

It doesn't mean it is logical.

It is not logical to say an infinite number of unique prior moments occurred before a unique present moment.

An infinite number of unique prior moments would go on and on. They would never finish.

Like the negative integers.

 

[bilby]

I started at a present moment (how could I have started anywhere else?).

I will never finish, because the infinite past never started. It was always there, and always has been.

Your argument assumes every moment in time is exactly like every other.

But every moment in time is unique and unlike every other moment in time.

I presume that your proof of this would have been presented here, but it would not fit on the Internet...


...not that it really matters, because my argument assumes nothing of the sort. If the past is infinite, then it has always been infinite. It matters not one whit how objects have changed their arrangements during the past, nor whether each arrangement is or is not unique, or even whether it makes any sense to talk of one single arrangement of objects at a particular moment in time (in fact it doesn't, but let's not bugger about with that irrelevant derail again, eh?).

 

[untermensche]

Your argument assumes every moment in time is exactly like every other.

But every moment in time is unique and unlike every other moment in time.

I presume that your proof of this would have been presented here, but it would not fit on the Internet...


...not that it really matters, because my argument assumes nothing of the sort.

A present moment in time is a unique arrangement of all that exists. It is unlike all arrangements that have come before it.

But if those arrangements (prior moments in time) were infinite there would be no way for all of them to finish and allow the present arrangement.

When you say we have a present and we would have a present whether or not the prior moments were infinite or not, you are saying all moments are the same.

But we are not just having a present moment, that moment is unlike any other moment.

Every moment is unique, like the negative integers.

An infinite number of unique prior moments can't finish just like the negative integers don't.