Infinte Regress Timeline...

[ryan]

By the definition of "Infinite", an infinite timeline does not end, hence Q(2)'.

Absence of an end is not necessary for a line to be infinite. As long as it has no beginning, it is infinite even if it has a definite end.

This is just a side issue to help resolve the main issue.

If time starts from now and doesn't end, then there will be no final day.

 

[ryan]

By the definition of "Infinite", an infinite timeline does not end, hence Q(2)'.

Infinite just means that it is not bounded everywhere. It says nothing of "start" or "end"

That is a mathematical definition. I know I was using that, but I don't think I will anymore.

 

[Juma]

Infinite just means that it is not bounded everywhere. It says nothing of "start" or "end"

That is a mathematical definition. I know I was using that, but I don't think I will anymore.

It is not a matter of what you want. That is the working definition of infinite. Of you are talking about something else then you will have to call it something else.

 

[ryan]

That is a mathematical definition. I know I was using that, but I don't think I will anymore.

It is not a matter of what you want. That is the working definition of infinite. Of you are talking about something else then you will have to call it something else.

No, the mathematical definition is not the one that I have been using most of this thread nor is it specified in the OP.

 

[Juma]

It is not a matter of what you want. That is the working definition of infinite. Of you are talking about something else then you will have to call it something else.

No, the mathematical definition is not the one that I have been using most of this thread nor is it specified in the OP.

Sorry but infinity is a mathematical concept.

 

[skepticalbip]

No, the mathematical definition is not the one that I have been using most of this thread nor is it specified in the OP.

Sorry but infinity is a mathematical concept.

But it is easier to make his argument if the definition of infinity is changed to "having a begining".

 

[ryan]

No, the mathematical definition is not the one that I have been using most of this thread nor is it specified in the OP.

Sorry but infinity is a mathematical concept.

Okay, so then what is the point of this whole thread - to discuss the possibility of infinity mathematically? If it is, then I would happily agree with you.

Or do you think this thread is more about reality and what's out there as opposed to abstract models?

I strongly think the latter.

 

[ryan]

Sorry but infinity is a mathematical concept.

But it is easier to make his argument if the definition of infinity is changed to "having a begining".

The last few posts between Juma and I have been about whether or not infinity can end. I can't believe that we are arguing about this.

 

[skepticalbip]

But it is easier to make his argument if the definition of infinity is changed to "having a begining".

The last few posts between Juma and I have been about whether or not infinity can end. I can't believe that we are arguing about this.

I can't either. That has been the whole argument for well over a hundred pages. Unter keeps assuming that there is a begining as the premise for his argument.

 

[ryan]

The last few posts between Juma and I have been about whether or not infinity can end. I can't believe that we are arguing about this.

I can't either. That has been the whole argument for well over a hundred pages. Unter keeps assuming that there is a begining as the premise for his argument.

The side argument that Juma and I are having is about whether or not infinite time can end if it began today. Juma does not seem to want to accept this. It is one of my premises in my argument on the last page.

 

[untermensche]

My lord. 100 pages and people still don't have a valid definition of infinity.

An infinite series is defined as a series that continues without end. There are no ends to infinite series. There can be beginnings but there doesn't have to be.

So if somebody says an infinite series of days occurred before yesterday they are saying that an amount of days without end occurred before yesterday.

Of course it is impossible for a series without end to have ended yesterday. Without end means it has no end and there can be no end.

 

[Kharakov]

Of course it is impossible for a series without end to have ended yesterday. Without end means it has no end and there can be no end.

If there is no beginning, every point on the timeline has an infinite amount of time before it.

However, from any point on the timeline, one can only measure forwards a finite amount.

You have things totally backwards.

 

[Juma]

An infinite series is defined as a series that continues without end. There are no ends to infinite series. There can be beginnings but there doesn't have to be.

But time is not an infinite serie.

 

[untermensche]

An infinite series is defined as a series that continues without end. There are no ends to infinite series. There can be beginnings but there doesn't have to be.

But time is not an infinite serie.

My point the whole thread.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it is impossible for a series without end to have ended yesterday. Without end means it has no end and there can be no end.

If there is no beginning, every point on the timeline has an infinite amount of time before it.

However, from any point on the timeline, one can only measure forwards a finite amount.

You have things totally backwards.

If there is no beginning then you are saying the amount is infinite.

If any amount has reached you it isn't an infinite amount. Infinite amounts go on without end. They never end up at any destination. They never end.

 

[Juma]

But time is not an infinite serie.

My point the whole thread.

Then why have you used that as an argument?
Time is not an serie at all.

If any amount has reached you it isn't an infinite amount. Infinite amounts go on without end. They never end up at any destination. They never end.

There is no "amount" that reaches us. That time has been going on forever doesnt mean that there is some infinite accumulated value somewhere!

 

[untermensche]

My point the whole thread.

Then why have you used that as an argument?
Time is not an serie at all.

Sure it is. It is a succession of changes. We know there is time because there is change.

It just isn't an infinite succession.

If any amount has reached you it isn't an infinite amount. Infinite amounts go on without end. They never end up at any destination. They never end.

There is no "amount" that reaches us. That time has been going on forever doesnt mean that there is some infinite accumulated value somewhere!

If time goes on forever then the amount of time before any present moment is an amount that goes on forever.

Infinities do not end. It is illogical to say something that goes on forever has finished going on.

 

[bilby]

Something that goes on forever can finish going on, if the time elapsed is infinite.

So your argument is that an infinite past is impossible, because for us to be here in such circumstances would require an infinite past, which is impossible because for us to be here in such circumstances would require an infinite past, which is impossible because for us to be here in such circumstances would require an infinite past, which is impossible because for us to be here in such circumstances would require an infinite past, which is impossible because for us to be here in such circumstances would require an infinite past, which is impossible because for us to be here in such circumstances would require an infinite past, which is impossible because for us to be here in such circumstances would require an infinite past, which is impossible because for us to be here in such circumstances would require an infinite past, which is impossible because ...

 

[bilby]

Then why have you used that as an argument?
Time is not an serie at all.

Sure it is. It is a succession of changes. We know there is time because there is change.

It just isn't an infinite succession.

If any amount has reached you it isn't an infinite amount. Infinite amounts go on without end. They never end up at any destination. They never end.

There is no "amount" that reaches us. That time has been going on forever doesnt mean that there is some infinite accumulated value somewhere!

If time goes on forever then the amount of time before any present moment is an amount that goes on forever.

Yes. And if the past goes on forever, then there has been enough time for that to occur.

 

[skepticalbip]

If time goes on forever then the amount of time before any present moment is an amount that goes on forever.

Almost. If time had no beginning then the amount of time before any present moment has gone on forever. So there would have been an infinite number of events that have already occurred in the infinite time preceding any present moment.

 

[ryan]

Of course it is impossible for a series without end to have ended yesterday. Without end means it has no end and there can be no end.

If there is no beginning, every point on the timeline has an infinite amount of time before it.

However, from any point on the timeline, one can only measure forwards a finite amount.

It seems like you agree with the fourth premise of my argument. If you don't see any other problems then ...

Is there an infinite regression in a real timeline?

P(1) A timeline represents some length divided by equal units for some frame of reference.

P(2) A timeline has only units of time that have passed for some frame of reference.

P(3) Each unit passes in one direction.

P(4) An infinite number of units of time cannot pass.

Q(1) The present in some frame of reference must have a finite number of units preceding it.