Intelligence Privilege

[prideandfall]

As a system, sure, but that does not mean that individual garbage collectors are nearly as valuable as more skilled professions.

why?
the system needs to be maintained, and they maintain it.
i don't see any rational or objective argument that says that any single sanitation worker has any less value than any single medical care provider when it comes to the overall health of our society on the whole, or any different value from some random jackass doing IT work.

i get that "the market" and society at large sees a difference - you don't have to repeat ad nauseum your mantra of "because this completely subjective and arbitrary thing exists, it is an immutable and inherent physical truth of the universe" about pay rates, because quite frankly we're all sick to death of hearing it.

 

[Metaphor]

what it means is that there are less unemployed physicians, and nothing more than that.

Then why did you bring it up?

i completely disagree with your central concept.
sure, it's easier to *become* a garbage collector, but i have a very serious issue with the idea that it's easier to *be* one.

Being a surgeon involves all the history of becoming a surgeon.

What, precisely, do you think it's like in the operating room? It's unpleasant to un-bunge a toilet stopped up with faeces, but it's unpleasant and highly stressful and highly exacting and highly technical and relies on a huge background of knowledge to operate on a person's insides.

at what point did i ever imply any such thing?

You think being a garbage collector is harder, which tells me you either think surgery is easy or you think being a garbage collector is an off-the-scale feat of superhuman achievement.

and?

She had to work really hard to become qualified as a physician, and she was already intellectually gifted.

Do you think that something being mentally harder in no way trumps something being physically harder?

firstly, your conclusion in no way follows from your opening statement.
secondly, your conclusion is spurious at best and a blind assumption based on no realistic data at worst.

Yeah, this subthread is over. Anyone who thinks it's harder to be a garbage collector than a surgeon, and claims bewilderment as to why surgeons are paid more, can't be reached by rational discussion.

 

[prideandfall]

Then why did you bring it up?

why did you say it's harder to be a surgeon?

Being a surgeon involves all the history of becoming a surgeon.

okay... and?

What, precisely, do you think it's like in the operating room? It's unpleasant to un-bunge a toilet stopped up with faeces, but it's unpleasant and highly stressful and highly exacting and highly technical and relies on a huge background of knowledge to operate on a person's insides.

well first off i haven't made any assumptions about being a surgeon or a sanitation worker, and secondly what you just described is a janitor, not a garbage collector.

You think being a garbage collector is harder

no i don't, and i've never said or suggested that it is.

She had to work really hard to become qualified as a physician, and she was already intellectually gifted.

again... and?

Do you think that something being mentally harder in no way trumps something being physically harder?

i think it's an elitist (in all the worst connotations) and intellectually dishonest to blithely pretend that doing something mentally taxing is automatically and inherently more difficult and more worthy than doing something physically taxing.
or, conversely, to assume that something which is physically and mentally taxing is somehow 'lesser than' or inherently deserving of inferior treatment simply because it isn't glamorous in a tabloid sort of way.

 

[Nexus]

Anyone who thinks it's harder to be a garbage collector than a surgeon, and claims bewilderment as to why surgeons are paid more, can't be reached by rational discussion.

Jobs don't pay based on how hard they are. It all boils down to supply and demand of the labor.

Many factors determine the labor supply of professions. Difficulty would of course lower the supply because fewer people would pursue the profession and fewer would be able to handle the job. Other aspects would increase the supply like social prestige or higher pay or it being a "fun" job. Licensing, accreditation and education requirements lower the supply of labor.

Doctors are highly paid for a myriad of reasons and the the difficulty of the work is only one aspect affecting the potential labor supply.

 

[prideandfall]

Anyone who thinks it's harder to be a garbage collector than a surgeon, and claims bewilderment as to why surgeons are paid more, can't be reached by rational discussion.

Jobs don't pay based on how hard they are. It all boils down to supply and demand of the labor.

Many factors determine the labor supply of professions. Difficulty would of course lower the supply because fewer people would pursue the profession and fewer would be able to handle the job. Other aspects would increase the supply like social prestige or higher pay or it being a "fun" job. Licensing, accreditation and education requirements lower the supply of labor.

Doctors are highly paid for a myriad of reasons and the the difficulty of the profession is only a small aspect affecting the potential labor supply.

also, less than none of any of this has anything to do with what i said in the first place which caused metaphor to cause this pages-long snoozefest of a derail in the first place, so hurray for the pointless of logic that doesn't even have its shit together enough to be circular!

 

[arkirk]

With his OP, Rosseau has just restated the notion of Social Darwinism, an idea already far too rampant in our society. If a young person with the best genetics is malnourished in childhood for whatever reason, his IQ declines. The conditions that lead to declining "intellect" are the very same conditions Social Darwinism would exacerbate in terms of the prerequisites for full citizenship...lack of education, good nutrition, nurturing for the disadvantaged. This would and in fact does increase the disparity by increasing that lack of ability, lack of knowledge, and skills that characterize the so-called stupid class. When you contribute to conditions that keep a segment of society ignorant, malnourished, ill housed, and in wage slavery, you really can't chalk up the social outcome to the stupidity of the disadvantaged as much as the stupidity of the advantaged. Today, we are locked in a fight to clean up our environment and the so called smart class has spent billions of its dollars denying global warming...a condition that will lead to widespread starvation and violence. How smart is that? It is simply a narcissistic notion that rich people often retreat to when the result of their predation on society yields some who cope poorly.

If there is a defect in some people, there is no reason to do anything to make that defect more significant and more damaging. I think perhaps people with superior intelligence understand this and do not wallow in narcissism. I have a hunch the genetic aspects of a person's makeup have far less to do with their ultimate potential than the start they get in life. It is a measure of intelligence to understand you are a part of society and not a "star" even if your parents buy you a first rate education, feed you well, and train you in the art of capital maintenance. I feel Rosseau's notion of superior intelligence is way overblown.

 

[Under the Rose]

Just to interject a wee bit of humor into this thread, which seems to have gone rampant on a tangent for a few pages...

25 July 1967, Titusville (PA) Herald, Ann Landers syndicated advice column, pg. 8, col. 2:
Confidential to Sick of Bossy Parents: So why don’t you get out on your own and see how it is—while you still know everything?

11 February 1969, Ada (OK) Evening News, pg. 1 (above mast):
The Sooner Cynic suggests that some of our teenagers maybe should start shifting for themselves now why they still know everything.

27 July 1979, Aiken (SC) Standard, pg. 1, col. 1:
Have You Heard...that Rotary newscaster and wit Randy Davidson told a story of a father speaking to his son? “Maybe you should start shifting for yourself now while you still know everything,” the man said.

16 December 1984, The Sunday Republican (Springfield, MA), “Today’s chuckle,” pg. 2, col. 4:
Hire a teenager...while he still knows everything.

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php...eenagers_now_while_they_still_know_everything

It would seem that many teenagers assume a perspective of intelligence prior to gaining much life experience.

 

[Derec]

It would seem that many teenagers assume a perspective of intelligence prior to gaining much life experience.

And old farts are always complaining about the young'uns.

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.

 

[rousseau]

Just to interject a wee bit of humor into this thread, which seems to have gone rampant on a tangent for a few pages...

25 July 1967, Titusville (PA) Herald, Ann Landers syndicated advice column, pg. 8, col. 2:
Confidential to Sick of Bossy Parents: So why don’t you get out on your own and see how it is—while you still know everything?

11 February 1969, Ada (OK) Evening News, pg. 1 (above mast):
The Sooner Cynic suggests that some of our teenagers maybe should start shifting for themselves now why they still know everything.

27 July 1979, Aiken (SC) Standard, pg. 1, col. 1:
Have You Heard...that Rotary newscaster and wit Randy Davidson told a story of a father speaking to his son? “Maybe you should start shifting for yourself now while you still know everything,” the man said.

16 December 1984, The Sunday Republican (Springfield, MA), “Today’s chuckle,” pg. 2, col. 4:
Hire a teenager...while he still knows everything.

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php...eenagers_now_while_they_still_know_everything

It would seem that many teenagers assume a perspective of intelligence prior to gaining much life experience.

For a few pages?? Aren't you on 100 ppp?

 

[arkirk]

Then why did you bring it up?

i completely disagree with your central concept.
sure, it's easier to *become* a garbage collector, but i have a very serious issue with the idea that it's easier to *be* one.

Being a surgeon involves all the history of becoming a surgeon.

What, precisely, do you think it's like in the operating room? It's unpleasant to un-bunge a toilet stopped up with faeces, but it's unpleasant and highly stressful and highly exacting and highly technical and relies on a huge background of knowledge to operate on a person's insides.

at what point did i ever imply any such thing?

You think being a garbage collector is harder, which tells me you either think surgery is easy or you think being a garbage collector is an off-the-scale feat of superhuman achievement.

and?

She had to work really hard to become qualified as a physician, and she was already intellectually gifted.

Do you think that something being mentally harder in no way trumps something being physically harder?

firstly, your conclusion in no way follows from your opening statement.
secondly, your conclusion is spurious at best and a blind assumption based on no realistic data at worst.

Yeah, this subthread is over. Anyone who thinks it's harder to be a garbage collector than a surgeon, and claims bewilderment as to why surgeons are paid more, can't be reached by rational discussion.

A person's potential to be of worth to society is not some fixed quantity. It needs to be honed. The person needs the opportunity. It is harder to be a garbage man because a garbage man has probably already got a shortage of education and opportunity. Dumping the cans is not a challenge. it is a boredom. It takes up too much of the guy's time so he cannot study to improve himself. In time the guy does become inured and feels beaten...doomed to collect garbage forever.

We get conditioned. Now it is true the medical student may have conditioned herself to pass her exams, etc. I bet she didn't have to dump garbage....ever.

 

[Under the Rose]

Just to interject a wee bit of humor into this thread, which seems to have gone rampant on a tangent for a few pages...

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php...eenagers_now_while_they_still_know_everything

It would seem that many teenagers assume a perspective of intelligence prior to gaining much life experience.

For a few pages?? Aren't you on 100 ppp?

Actually, I prefer 10 ppp as the pages load faster, especially if there are any images included in the thread. I live in the land of unreliable internet. Today, it is too slow to enjoy any streaming video, likely because it is pre-race day for the Klondike International Road Relay and this is their biggest field ever with 1500 registered participants. In other words, a whole bunch of extra folks in town sucking up the bandwidth. For those interested in this event, a link.
http://klondikeroadrelay.com/about-the-race/



At least it hasn't crashed...yet...

 

[Metaphor]

All of you who feel that way, please, feel free to pay your garbage collector more than your surgeon, and feel free to try and get surgery by offering the surgeon $15/hr. If the surgeon balks, say that they don't offer as much of a public health benefit as a garbage collector does, so that's even more than they deserve.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Are we having the doctor vs garbage man debate?

 

[Metaphor]

Are we having the doctor vs garbage man debate?

Well to be honest until today I didn't realise there were people out there who thought people should be paid according to how much they contribute to public health. Even if you accepted this as a premise, you would then also need to be convinced that individual garbage collectors do more for public health than individual surgeons.

You know, I can burn my garbage but no-one can burn the cancer out of their body.

Doctors commit suicide at four times the rate of the rest of the population. It's not because they're bummed out by the rain during their European holidays or because they're worried that the extensions on their house are taking too long, it's because they have an incredibly hard job with lots of hours and the relentless emotional energy of dealing with sick people and their families, day in and day out.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Are we having the doctor vs garbage man debate?

Well to be honest until today I didn't realise there were people out there who thought people should be paid according to how much they contribute to public health. Even if you accepted this as a premise, you would then also need to be convinced that individual garbage collectors do more for public health than individual surgeons.

You know, I can burn my garbage but no-one can burn the cancer out of their body.

Doctors commit suicide at four times the rate of the rest of the population. It's not because they're bummed out by the rain during their European holidays or because they're worried that the extensions on their house are taking too long, it's because they have an incredibly hard job with lots of hours and the relentless emotional energy of dealing with sick people and their families, day in and day out.

Have you ever lived in a city in the middle of a garbage strike? Ever visited one?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You know, I can burn my garbage but no-one can burn the cancer out of their body.

Challenge accepted.

...

Oh, great. Now I have both cancer and massive third-degree burns. Thanks a lot, dude.

 

[dismal]

I f leftists want people to continue to think they are complete morons they should argue shit like garbage men should make as much as surgeons.

I don't think even Fidel was a big enough idiot to try that.

His problem was more when some German sex tourist tipped a bellboy more to carry up his bags than a doctor would make in a month.

 

[Metaphor]

Well to be honest until today I didn't realise there were people out there who thought people should be paid according to how much they contribute to public health. Even if you accepted this as a premise, you would then also need to be convinced that individual garbage collectors do more for public health than individual surgeons.

You know, I can burn my garbage but no-one can burn the cancer out of their body.

Doctors commit suicide at four times the rate of the rest of the population. It's not because they're bummed out by the rain during their European holidays or because they're worried that the extensions on their house are taking too long, it's because they have an incredibly hard job with lots of hours and the relentless emotional energy of dealing with sick people and their families, day in and day out.

Have you ever lived in a city in the middle of a garbage strike? Ever visited one?

I'd prefer to live in a city with no garbage collectors rather than no doctors.

In fact, I am quite far 'left' when it comes to strikes: if you don't have the choice to withhold your labour, then you are literally a slave. But I can't extend the same courtesy to doctors: if they went on strike and withheld their labour, I'd find that a deeply troubling, immoral decision. I would not support doctors going on strike.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

With all of this talk about privilege lately, let's talk about the most overwhelming type of privilege: intelligence privilege.

Think about it. Not only does every person on the entire planet regularly discriminate based on inherent intelligence, it's actually an encouraged practice. This means that people with no skills and not a lot of ability are naturally going to gravitate toward the low end of society. Lack of ability spans across all races, religions, and genders.

The obvious argument that the concept is stupid is that we're an evolutionary animal and competition is our natural state, on the opposite extreme would be some type of regulatory measures. But I think if we're going to use the concept of privilege, then speaking about intelligence privilege might be useful.

1) What does it mean to have great intelligence?
2) What responsibilities should it entail, if any?
3) Is the idea even reasonable at all?
4) How should we protect the disadvantaged? Does this relate to a welfare state?

And go.

Ever read Anti-Intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Have you ever lived in a city in the middle of a garbage strike? Ever visited one?

I'd prefer to live in a city with no garbage collectors rather than no doctors.

In fact, I am quite far 'left' when it comes to strikes: if you don't have the choice to withhold your labour, then you are literally a slave. But I can't extend the same courtesy to doctors: if they went on strike and withheld their labour, I'd find that a deeply troubling, immoral decision. I would not support doctors going on strike.

I take that as a no.

II have had the "pleasure" of digging a Buick out from under the daily leaving on a brownstone.

Not fun.

And as anyone can tell you who has traveled to places with poor public sanitation, there comes a point when you can't have enough doctor to make up for lack clean air, land, and water and people die from squalor.

Sanitation worker are far more important to the running of society than people give them credit for and often not until they aren't doing their jobs do people realize how important they are.

Now this is not to say that surgeons aren't important.

they are.

But surgeons work best when the cities in which they work are clean.

Now as for who should get more than the other, that is question above my grade and pay. Although I do think sanitations workers, depending on where they work, should make more than they do and they should certainly get more respect.