Invading the Capitol to protest the electoral vote certification (2016 edition)

[laughing dog]

In such a large mob, I find it plausible that there were different sorts of protesters/"revolutionists". Some were probably insurrectionists, some were white supremacists, some were ardent MAGA jackasses who were willing to engage in violence, some were simply MAGAs, maybe some were anti-Maga inciters and some were simply protesters who got carried away by mob fever.

That does not excuse their violence and destruction. And we know that 5 deaths are attributable to this mob violence - one law enforcement officer, one at the hands of law enforcement and apparently three due to some sort of health problem. All of this occurred during a mob invasion of the seat of the US government to stop a constitutionally mandated procedure.

I wonder why the 7 brave Republican patriots of the Senate and the 130 (?) brave Republican House of Representative patriots did not stay, welcome their fellow patriots into the Capitol, and join them in their righteous cause.

I grant you it does not excuse it. Some of them trampled a person to death, certainly for no good reason. But what do you mean "attributable" to mob violence? The woman shot by a police officer was not killed by mob violence.

The police fired at the mob because of the violence. Or do you think the police just opened fire for the hell of it?

Sure, the deaths would not have happened without the mob violence.

Then by definition, the deaths can be attributable to them.

 

[bilby]

I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.

It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

That's a convenient prediction.

It's also starting to come out that there were elves at the riots, but as we all know that the cops are in cahoots with the elf lobby, I expect to see no elves being arrested.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But what do you mean "attributable" to mob violence? The woman shot by a police officer was not killed by mob violence.

It was certainly part of it.
If she and her associates had been peacefully standing outside those doors, verbally requesting entry, the guard would not have fired.

If she became separated from the group and wandered, alone, into a restricted area, and left the first time a guard told her to leave, she would not have been shot.

The people in that hallway refused the guard's requests to leave, battered the door, smashed the window, and when they saw a gun pointed st them, still mobbed the barricade and hoisted Ashli up over it.

American cops horribly overuse 'I feared for my life,' but with the mob acting violently, smashing windows, breaking the doors, and reports of cops being hurt elsewhere on the campus, the guard vertainly felt she was a threat.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa.

Then where was the first aid station? Roving medics? Pallets of water and snacks?

Professional rioters know how to protest, dammit.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.

It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

That's a convenient prediction.

It's also starting to come out that there were elves at the riots, but as we all know that the cops are in cahoots with the elf lobby, I expect to see no elves being arrested.

Nah. Elves just feel the iron in the cops' guns coming and run.

 

[bilby]

But what do you mean "attributable" to mob violence? The woman shot by a police officer was not killed by mob violence.

It was certainly part of it.
If she and her associates had been peacefully standing outside those doors, verbally requesting entry, the guard would not have fired.

If she became separated from the group and wandered, alone, into a restricted area, and left the first time a guard told her to leave, she would not have been shot.

The people in that hallway refused the guard's requests to leave, battered the door, smashed the window, and when they saw a gun pointed st them, still mobbed the barricade and hoisted Ashli up over it.

American cops horribly overuse 'I feared for my life,' but with the mob acting violently, smashing windows, breaking the doors, and reports of cops being hurt elsewhere on the campus, the guard vertainly felt she was a threat.

Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.

It's not like they didn't let the rioters know that what they were attempting was unlawful; That the guards were armed; Or that the building was government property to which they were not authorised access.

I am surprised that they shot this one individual, because I would have expected that they would have shot a lot of people in such a situation.

 

[bilby]

It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa.

Then where was the first aid station? Roving medics? Pallets of water and snacks?

Professional rioters know how to protest, dammit.

They at least know to cover their faces and take off their work ID badges.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Yeah, there probably were some Antifa agitators.

Good ol' party of "personal responsibility" refusing to take responsibility.

 

[ruby sparks]

I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.

It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

Another side of this you probably have not heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6Ht5BFp6I

Italy stole the USA elections. Lol. lol. Lol. Lol. This is not even worthy of scraping the barrel.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa.

Then where was the first aid station? Roving medics? Pallets of water and snacks?

Professional rioters know how to protest, dammit.

They at least know to cover their faces and take off their work ID badges.

Verily.

Imagine the mission brief for this riot, too.

"Okay, the election came out the way we wanted, and there's no legal thing Trump, or the 10,000 expected peaceful protestors, can do to change the fact that we won.
"So, let's get there, infiltrate the mob, and get them to interrupt a process we fully support, MAYBE threaten the lives of people doing what we want done.
"Everyone got their assignments?"
"I'm on removing face masks."
"I'm handing out Nazi t-shirts."
"I'm making sure no one has a burner phone, and their personal phone is open to the local WIFI."
"I'm getting people who brought their work ID to wear it proudly."
"I'm changing Trump's speech to include phrases like 'marching with you to the capitol'."

 

[Elixir]

It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa.

Out of your ass?

Another side of this you probably have not heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6Ht5BFp6I

Yes, there is a lot of YOUTUBE I have not heard.
Did you read ALL the comments?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.

Yes.
As a condition of last resort, when all lesser means have failed, or cannot reasonably be applied. (Ashli would have had that memorized as well as i did.)
The barricade was a lesser means.
The doors being locked, lesser means.
The guards outside the doors, lesser means.
The barricades outside the building, the cops behind them, the red ropes, more lesser means.

But the guard would still have been expected, and trained, to use lesser means instead of deadly force if the situation afforded him the option. But physically restraining Ashli would have exposed him, and his principals, to the rest of the angry mob pressing behind her. So we jump past a taser ir a baton, if he had one, to the application of deadly force.

 

[ZiprHead]

Yeah, there probably were some Antifa agitators.

Good ol' party of "personal responsibility" refusing to take responsibility.

 

[ZiprHead]

It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa.

Out of your ass?

Another side of this you probably have not heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6Ht5BFp6I

Yes, there is a lot of YOUTUBE I have not heard.
Did you read ALL the comments?

The comments have been turned off.

Sarah Palin? Really? Only the dumbest politician of all time.

 

[Copernicus]

The Trump rabble was far more violent and threatening than the scattered videos showed during the riot. Chris Hayes has just aired some of the new information that has come in. Apparently, there was a preplanned effort to hunt down and kill some congressional leaders, including Mike Pence. Earlier in the day, Trump had again voiced his frustration at Pence, making a veiled threat if Pence did not carry out his wish to reject Biden votes from the Electoral College. A noose was strung up outside of the Capitol, and a crowd inside of the entrance to the building were chanting "Hang Mike Pence!" Congressional offices were systematically searched. If Capitol police had not held off those attacking the barricades, many members of Congress could have been killed or injured.

[YOUTUBE]lhjRXO72v1s&ab_channel=MSNBC[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ZiprHead]

You poor soul. Don't you realize people yelling from the gallery is just as bad?

 

[Derec]

You poor soul. Don't you realize people yelling from the gallery is just as bad?

It's a matter of numbers. Had Tanya had 1000 people with her instead of just a few, would it be any different?

Given all the violence in the streets in 2020, I very much think that had Trump won reelection, the Antifa/#BLM/Resistance would have stormed the Capitol on the 6th.

The question is, how would people on here have written about it? How would CNN have reported? Likely some variation of "Mostly peaceful" with some references to a "reckoning on race" ...


And no, there was absolutely nothing "peaceful" about Kenosha riots that led to many buildings burned to the ground or vandalized.

 

[Derec]

Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.

What happened to everything that the Left has been saying about police using lethal force for the last six years? Now all of a sudden lethal force threshold is lowered.
So when say a #BLM rioter gains access to a restricted area during the next #Justice4X riot, it's ok to shoot them?

It's not like they didn't let the rioters know that what they were attempting was unlawful; That the guards were armed; Or that the building was government property to which they were not authorised access.

Do you think the same when #BLM/Antifa gain access to a government building?

 

[Trausti]

Yeah, there probably were some Antifa agitators.

Good ol' party of "personal responsibility" refusing to take responsibility.

John Earle Sullivan

 

[bilby]

Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.

What happened to everything that the Left has been saying about police using lethal force for the last six years?

That question makes no sense.

There is no 'the Left'. There are a bunch of people who all identify with one left-wing position or another, but I don't expect them to agree with one another on every single thing, and if you do, you're going to look like a total idiot when you see diversity and claim it to be hypocrisy.

Now all of a sudden lethal force threshold is lowered.

Nope. I am not aware of anyone who has changed their opinion on that threshold, though I expect some exist. Certainly my post isn't an instance of, or evidence for, any such lowering.

So when say a #BLM rioter gains access to a restricted area during the next #Justice4X riot, it's ok to shoot them?

That would, obviously, depend on the circumstances. But certainly it would be OK by me, assuming that the circumstances were substantially similar.

It's not like they didn't let the rioters know that what they were attempting was unlawful; That the guards were armed; Or that the building was government property to which they were not authorised access.

Do you think the same when #BLM/Antifa gain access to a government building?

Yes. Obviously.

I am surprised when anyone in the US doesn't get shot when breaking into any secured facilities, particularly government facilities.