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Iran Deal

Basically all I'm seeing from conservative forums about this is along the following lines:

conservative posters said:
[...]

brokering an illegal treaty without congressional oversight in violation of the Constitution

[...]

Since Obama didn't have it ratified as a formal treaty, it is legally non-binding, which gave Trump the authority he needed to extricate the US from that disastrous agreement.

[...]

Any deal, in order to be binding, must be ratified by 2/3 Senate vote. Non-ratified deals are non-binding, so they are open to change.

Essentially, as it was an executive order Trump isn't 'wrong' in going back on it- it's likened to an agreement between Iran & Obama, not Iran and the US.

A very interesting outlook on the whole thing. Plus they point out that Israili intelligence shows that Iran wasn't holding up their end, which is odd as I thought that the Israeli intelligence was mostly bullshit.
 
It's revealing in what they're focusing on, of course. And I believe it's Netanyoohoo who says Iran wasn't holding up their end, not necessarily their intelligence community. His word is as useless as Trump's.
 
Basically all I'm seeing from conservative forums about this is along the following lines:

conservative posters said:
[...]

brokering an illegal treaty without congressional oversight in violation of the Constitution

[...]

Since Obama didn't have it ratified as a formal treaty, it is legally non-binding, which gave Trump the authority he needed to extricate the US from that disastrous agreement.

[...]

Any deal, in order to be binding, must be ratified by 2/3 Senate vote. Non-ratified deals are non-binding, so they are open to change.

Essentially, as it was an executive order Trump isn't 'wrong' in going back on it- it's likened to an agreement between Iran & Obama, not Iran and the US.

A very interesting outlook on the whole thing. Plus they point out that Israili intelligence shows that Iran wasn't holding up their end, which is odd as I thought that the Israeli intelligence was mostly bullshit.

What I would like to know is how reneging on this deal serves U.S. interests.

Does it facilitate trade?

Does it make the world a safer place?

Does it somehow strengthen America's future ability to negotiate with other nations in the future?

What actual benefits are derived from it?

I would sincerely like to know, but I don't think any answers will be forthcoming.

This notion that it's the right thing to do simply because Trump can do it is fucking infantile.
 
Basically all I'm seeing from conservative forums about this is along the following lines:

conservative posters said:
[...]

brokering an illegal treaty without congressional oversight in violation of the Constitution

[...]

Since Obama didn't have it ratified as a formal treaty, it is legally non-binding, which gave Trump the authority he needed to extricate the US from that disastrous agreement.

[...]

Any deal, in order to be binding, must be ratified by 2/3 Senate vote. Non-ratified deals are non-binding, so they are open to change.

Essentially, as it was an executive order Trump isn't 'wrong' in going back on it- it's likened to an agreement between Iran & Obama, not Iran and the US.

A very interesting outlook on the whole thing. Plus they point out that Israili intelligence shows that Iran wasn't holding up their end, which is odd as I thought that the Israeli intelligence was mostly bullshit.

They'll forget all about that line of reason when Cheato comes back from Korea with a handshake "deal" without congressional approval, and calls it a fabulous, incredible, tremendous breakthrough agreement...
 
They'll forget all about that line of reason when Cheato comes back from Korea with a handshake "deal" without congressional approval, and calls it a fabulous, incredible, tremendous breakthrough agreement...

Also, the way that Trump gave Kim a few dozen surplus nuclear warheads from the US stockpiles in exchange for permits to build a Trump Tower in Pyongyang shows how well America can do with a seasoned negotiator in charge.
 
They'll forget all about that line of reason when Cheato comes back from Korea with a handshake "deal" without congressional approval, and calls it a fabulous, incredible, tremendous breakthrough agreement...

Also, the way that Trump gave Kim a few dozen surplus nuclear warheads from the US stockpiles in exchange for permits to build a Trump Tower in Pyongyang shows how well America can do with a seasoned negotiator in charge.

Some seasoned negotiators are better than others:

turkey.jpg
 
This notion that it's the right thing to do simply because Trump can do it is fucking infantile.

Don’t say that. He’ll throw a twitter fit during “executive time.”
 
Another big gift to our enemies. The Iranian hard liners tried to warn their government that America could not be trusted. Idiot-in-chief just proved them right.
 
Usually, in large, complex negotiations like this, the actual diplomats work out 99% of the deal before the big shots even show up, for a variety of reasons. Here we have Pompeo, Trump and a hollowed out state department, and a date set for June? I don't see how this can work, especially with North Korea having a penchant for...well, lying.

An actor on one side that that will not negotiate in good faith and is totally inept. Plus, North Korea as well. While I can hope for a miracle, I sure as hell am skeptical.
 
And let's not forget that this helps Putin.

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/993970473032650752

Russia's state TV is having a panel discussion as to where to find 8 trillion rubles needed to implement Putin’s domestic policy goals. Female host says: "Looks like we found it. Trump is withdrawing US from the #Iran nuclear deal. Oil prices should go up, which is good for us."

So when you grouse about the pain at the pump over the next year (prices are already on the rise) remember that it's just another favor from Donnie to Vlad.

As you said, prices are already on the rise. They have been on the rise since January 2016. Yes, they have started increasing back when the phrase "President Trump" was still considered a joke.
crude-oil-price-history-chart-2018-05-12-macrotrends (1).png
That is a normal market behavior. For the last few years, prices have been very low, even dropping as low as ~$30 at one point. Low oil prices discourage investment, so there is less drilling and fewer oil megaprojects coming online. That comes to roost a few years later (i.e. now) and prices go back up. That in turn will encourage more investment and so on.
The oil prices right now are actually still relatively low compared to what has been happening in the last 10-15 years. Remember 2008?
crude-oil-price-history-chart-2018-05-12-macrotrends (2).png

Barring a real shooting war that takes out significant supply from the market, I do not think prices will go much higher than they are now. And a modest increase will not bring 8 trillion rubles to Russian government. That is about 130 billion USD. A $10 increase in price, from $70 to $80, is equivalent to less than $40 billion, gross. The government takes maybe $10 billion, that means it would take them 13 years to make up the 8 trillion rubles. Btw, that is less than $1000 per capita. Not as much as it initially sounds when using the t-word.

Note also that US makes about as much oil as the Russians. Although, because they have fewer people who are poorer and thus they get to export much of their oil while US still imports much of what we use.
As far as their energy strengths, natural gas is their real ace in the hole. Due to European reluctance to frack for their own damn gas and good pipeline infrastructure from Russia to Europe, Russians have them by the short and the curlies when winter comes.
 
And let's not forget that this helps Putin.

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/993970473032650752

Russia's state TV is having a panel discussion as to where to find 8 trillion rubles needed to implement Putin’s domestic policy goals. Female host says: "Looks like we found it. Trump is withdrawing US from the #Iran nuclear deal. Oil prices should go up, which is good for us."

So when you grouse about the pain at the pump over the next year (prices are already on the rise) remember that it's just another favor from Donnie to Vlad.

As you said, prices are already on the rise. They have been on the rise since January 2016. Yes, they have started increasing back when the phrase "President Trump" was still considered a joke.

<graphic>
That is a normal market behavior.
Yup.

Barring a real shooting war that takes out significant supply from the market, I do not think prices will go much higher than they are now.
With US sanctions on Iran coming back, especially if this administration goes anal on the EU over it, oil could make it $100. And if we are dumb enough to try to bomb Iran into submission, it would probably go quite a bit higher. Iran oil would be off market. Iraq oil would largely be off market as no tanker would go that far up the gulf. Iran has tons of medium range missiles and if they plan for us attacking, they shouldn't have much trouble taking Kuwait oil offline.
 

Gasoline prices in the US seem to be spiking at the moment, but the public is not yet connecting this with Trump's boneheaded meddling in longstanding foreign policies. Since the price of transporting goods will inevitably rise, so will prices generally. The news media, of course, have little time to focus on issues that don't attract eyeballs.
 
Gasoline prices in the US seem to be spiking at the moment, but the public is not yet connecting this with Trump's boneheaded meddling in longstanding foreign policies. Since the price of transporting goods will inevitably rise, so will prices generally.
With a good reason. The current increase in oil prices started in January 2016. It is normal cyclic price oscillation that is due to low prices discouraging investments which restrict supplies in the future.
The news media, of course, have little time to focus on issues that don't attract eyeballs.
That is true in general. Stormy is the Monica of 2010s.
 
Gasoline prices in the US seem to be spiking at the moment, but the public is not yet connecting this with Trump's boneheaded meddling in longstanding foreign policies. Since the price of transporting goods will inevitably rise, so will prices generally.
With a good reason. The current increase in oil prices started in January 2016. It is normal cyclic price oscillation that is due to low prices discouraging investments which restrict supplies in the future.

Or perhaps you just didn't bother reading the links that koy posted:

Trump Iran sanctions just gave Saudi Arabia and Russia more clout in the oil market, so watch for higher prices


Trump’s Iran Policy Is Blowing Up His Energy Agenda

When you reduce the supply of Iranian crude, that makes the price of oil go up in the world market. Markets react. Gasoline prices go up. So does the price of delivering products to your local grocery store. Putin smiles. That would not be a "normal cyclic oscillation".
 
Gasoline prices in the US seem to be spiking at the moment, but the public is not yet connecting this with Trump's boneheaded meddling in longstanding foreign policies. Since the price of transporting goods will inevitably rise, so will prices generally.
With a good reason. The current increase in oil prices started in January 2016. It is normal cyclic price oscillation that is due to low prices discouraging investments which restrict supplies in the future.
The news media, of course, have little time to focus on issues that don't attract eyeballs.
That is true in general. Stormy is the Monica of 2010s.

Stormy is the Monica story times 100!

Derec: can you explain why American right wingers are so obsessed with hammering Arab governments who shield Shia terrorists, while giving such a pass to governments who shield Sunni terrorists? Sunni terrorists have killed 10 times more American civilians than Shia. I'm not aware of any Shia terrorists attack in the US. Shia bad guys mostly attack soldiers. Sunni terrorists mostly attack civilians. I don't get it. Personally, I think that we should withdraw from their crazy civil war.
 
And if we are dumb enough to try to bomb Iran into submission, it would probably go quite a bit higher.

Oh I think we're dumb enough. Trump hired John "I've got such a hard on for bombing Iran my penis can touch my mustache" Bolton.
 
Gasoline prices in the US seem to be spiking at the moment, but the public is not yet connecting this with Trump's boneheaded meddling in longstanding foreign policies. Since the price of transporting goods will inevitably rise, so will prices generally.
With a good reason. The current increase in oil prices started in January 2016. It is normal cyclic price oscillation that is due to low prices discouraging investments which restrict supplies in the future.

Or perhaps you just didn't bother reading the links that koy posted:

Trump Iran sanctions just gave Saudi Arabia and Russia more clout in the oil market, so watch for higher prices


Trump’s Iran Policy Is Blowing Up His Energy Agenda

When you reduce the supply of Iranian crude, that makes the price of oil go up in the world market. Markets react. Gasoline prices go up. So does the price of delivering products to your local grocery store. Putin smiles. That would not be a "normal cyclic oscillation".

Next will be something to do with shale. Either he’ll use this “crisis” as a reason to dump our own oil reserves into the market (thereby depleting them), or he’ll come up with some other way—buried deep most likely—to fuck up our oil reserves so that we too become dependent on Russian oil.

And by “he’ll” I, of course mean, Putin through Trump.

The key is in these two paragraphs from the Foreign Policy piece:

What’s notable about the Trump administration’s outreach, however, is that it remains necessary even in the face of surging U.S. oil production that has put the country on course to soon be oil independent (on a net basis). The U.S. Energy Information Administration projects that U.S. net oil imports in 2019 will be their lowest in more than 60 years. Such forecasts undergird the administration’s calls for U.S. “energy dominance,” which administration officials have defined as “a self-reliant and secure nation, free from the geopolitical turmoil of other nations that seek to use energy as an economic weapon.”

The need to call on the Saudis to stabilize oil markets in the wake of the Iran announcement, however, lays bare why increased oil production alone does not make the U.S. immune to the realities of the global oil market. As oil can be freely traded, there is, broadly speaking, one world oil price. A disruption to supply somewhere in the world will thus cause oil prices, and consequently pump prices, to rise in the United States, even if it imports no oil at all.

Perhaps the gambit is to foster isolationism in order to burn off our reserves, but my money is still going to be on something more direct and catastrophic (at least in application), so that we are somehow either prevented from extracting sufficient quantities on our own or the access is somehow sabotaged.

We have 80% of the world’s shale oil resources, but somehow Trump is going to fuck with that or make some sort of deal that puts us on the losing end in regard to it. Words marked.

ETA: It has something to do with this: Trump Administration Rescinds Fracking Rule For Public Lands.

Keep in mind that Trump’s business model was never about building shit; it was about getting loans to build shit so that he could then profit off of their demise. The cover—the front—was the building, but the way he made his money was off of the fire sales once they went belly-up.

The point being, you can’t ever look at Trump dangling his shiny keys; that’s the distraction so that you don’t see what he’s really up to. A trick he learned from his corrupt father; even more corrupt mentor (Roy Cohn); equally corrupt advisors (Stone, Bannon, Priebus etal); and long time groomer and current puppeteer, Putin.

Somehow, our shale resources will get fucked, I guarantee it and this may be it:

As one of the few federal actions that have been taken to address the risks associated with unconventional oil and gas development, the 2015 BLM fracking rule was an important step in protecting people and enhancing disclosure around hydraulic fracturing. Without such a rule in place, fracking on federal lands has less oversight and transparency, putting the public at risk.

And the operations themselves.

Or, there’s this route (sending the industry into never ending regulatory deadlock:

The industry and the Trump administration would increase national and local acceptance of fracking if strong federal regulations were in place. Instead, the industry argues that states are already doing an adequate job of regulating fracking, so the behemoth federal government need not slow the drilling approval process with yet more red tape. Yet even if most states have model fracking regulations, that does not obviate the need for a federal backstop guaranteeing a minimum level of regulation across the country. The Obama rules would have deferred to local regulations when states had regulations as strong or stronger than the federal ones.

If Trump administration officials were worried about regulatory redundancy, they should have ensured that the federal authorities were deferring to states when they could. Instead, they quashed a sensible set of rules that would have discouraged accidents and encouraged public confidence in the industry.

My money is on a predictable, catastrophic accident due to rescinding Obama’s regulations (and/or sabotage resulting in the same thing) and that accident being so devastating that everyone—Trump included—has no choice but to ban fracking. And the basis for that bet is the simple fact that there was no need to rescind the regs. The industry was, in fact, just fine with them and agreed to them as being necessary to help prevent catastrophic accidents.
 
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With a good reason. The current increase in oil prices started in January 2016. It is normal cyclic price oscillation that is due to low prices discouraging investments which restrict supplies in the future.

That is true in general. Stormy is the Monica of 2010s.

Stormy is the Monica story times 100!

Derec: can you explain why American right wingers are so obsessed with hammering Arab governments who shield Shia terrorists, while giving such a pass to governments who shield Sunni terrorists? Sunni terrorists have killed 10 times more American civilians than Shia. I'm not aware of any Shia terrorists attack in the US. Shia bad guys mostly attack soldiers. Sunni terrorists mostly attack civilians. I don't get it. Personally, I think that we should withdraw from their crazy civil war.

We have more dead from the Shia if you count the military.

I do think it's more a matter of picking the targets they won't be harmed by going after, though.
 
What seems to be developing as Trump's approach to developing a kleptocracy modeled after Russia and other "crony capitalist" states is to demagogue some popular issue and scare the industry into jumping through hoops to please him. For example, he made a big campaign issue out of letting Medicare negotiate drug prices with pharmaceutical companies. They poured lots of money into convincing him otherwise. (Cohen even got a piece of the action to the tune of over a million dollars from Novartis.) There are lots of ways to funnel money to this guy and his cronies. Then he backs down in the end, if he feels that his "art of the deal" tactics worked. So today we learned that his new plan for lowering drug costs still has Medicare paying non-negotiable "trumped-up" retail prices--just what big pharma wanted. Their stock prices surged on that news. (And I suspect that some Trump family and cronies had cashed in on insider information.)

I don't know whether Trump's Iran policy is driven by his relations with Putin, who is receiving a huge windfall from it. Putin has also aligned himself with Shiites in the pan-Islam schismatic civil war, so he may be playing both sides on this. However, I suspect that knowledge of what Trump would do with the Iran deal would have been worth a lot of money to some people. Ultimately, he could profit personally, but he is sitting in the catbird seat. He controls formulation and enforcement of regulations, just like Putin does. He can't manipulate things as easily as Putin, but Cousin Vlad seems to be the one serving as his role model. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump finds a way to engineer rapprochement with the Iranians at some point, if it could lead to folks cashing in on long odds.
 
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