Irony is not dead - it just shot its instructor

[Loren Pechtel]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/ohio-gun-shop-owner-fatally-shot-by-student

64-year-old James Baker was shot Saturday while students practiced weapon malfunction drills. The Clermont County Sheriff's Office says about 10 people were taking the class at the time at KayJayGun Shop in Monroe Township, about 25 miles southeast of Cincinnati.

What a shame that he died from promoting the more widespread use of guns.

A weapon malfunction is when a pistol is most likely to be fired unintentionally. It requires awareness and practice to not pull the trigger. Beyond that, the shooter is also most likely to be distracted with trying to clear the jammed cartridge and not be aware which way the barrel is pointed.

Not knowing any more about this incident, based on my training experiences(non-fire arm related) with power tools and machinery, 10 students is too many for a single instructor.

I doubt the 10 students as such is the problem. Something like this probably should be supervised 1 on 1 during the hands-on portion, though, the instructor ready to intervene if the weapon swings in an unsafe direction.

 

[zorq]

Regarding the title of this thread: At this point I don't see any irony in these sorts of situations at all.

Anytime guns are being handled the situation is dangerous. People in the presence of guns getting wounded or killed by guns is the EXPECTED outcome. It's not a surprising juxtaposition between expectations and reality (the definition of irony) even though the people involved had gun safety foremost on their minds at the time.

"Gun Safety" is essentially an oxymoron. Get used to it. I have.

 

[Rhea]

It's about a person and his acquaintances engaging in promoting a dangerous pastime (unlike so many people do - sky diving, mountain climbing, car racing where only themselves are at risk, this one puts others at risk) whose life happened to be claimed by someone else engaging in that pastime (as occasionally all too frequently happens with such things ).

But aside from enacting your fascist, fun-police population control policies, there is little that could be done by society to prevent such things -

Au contraire, much could be done to make it far far less dangerous. Like stopping the notion that the average citizen can be competent at it with a little two-hour class. Like, of course, the instructor removing all bullets from the weapons of anyone in the class and only conducting the class with blanks. Like installing grip ID safety devices so that it cannot go off if you're handling it wrong. Like a million things.

 

[JonA]

Au contraire, much could be done to make it far far less dangerous. Like stopping the notion that the average citizen can be competent at it with a little two-hour class. Like, of course, the instructor removing all bullets from the weapons of anyone in the class and only conducting the class with blanks. Like installing grip ID safety devices so that it cannot go off if you're handling it wrong. Like a million things.

How were others put at risk? Why are you unwilling to accept even the smallest amount of danger when it comes to guns but implicitly care little about the dangers inherent in many other pastimes?

Your proposals may seem reasonable until one considers that enacting them is equivalent to keeping horse riders locked to the spoke of a big wheel - very safe, but completely defeating the purpose of the pastime.

 

[laughing dog]

How were others put at risk?

Well, if this bonehead was shot through a wall, might anyone who had been outside at risk from some random bullet going through a wall and hitting them? Or how about the risk to anyone in the area from one of these people walking around locked and loaded?

BTW, making sure a weapon cannot be fired unless it is handled properly is not analogous to locking possible horse riders to a big wheel.

 

[JonA]

How were others put at risk?

Well, if this bonehead was shot through a wall, might anyone who had been outside at risk from some random bullet going through a wall and hitting them? Or how about the risk to anyone in the area from one of these people walking around locked and loaded?

BTW, making sure a weapon cannot be fired unless it is handled properly is not analogous to locking possible horse riders to a big wheel.

How at risk do you feel driving past the golf course?

 

[Rhea]

How were others put at risk?

Guns have the singular ability to seriously harm those around. Not just nearby, but those whom you cannot even see. To deny or minimize this is the very thing I am arguing against. People who want to waltz about with a device that can fire a lethal projectile through a wall or into people who are standing hundreds of yards away with the tiniest squeeze of one finger and deny that it is a high risk device.

A horse does not kill people through walls. A sky diver does not kill people hundreds of yards from where they are. A race car does not regularly get misused by children. A mountain climber does not fall into a crowd of people.

Why are you unwilling to accept even the smallest amount of danger when it comes to guns but implicitly care little about the dangers inherent in many other pastimes?

This is the kind of idiotic argument that I hear all the time from gun nuts.

It's just a total lie - you are lying to yourself and then you are trying to lie to me.

I _do_ accept "even the smallest amount of danger from guns". I am a gun owner! You fuckheads always go full False Dichotomy Straw Man Well Poisoning in the very first paragraph. And all it does is show the paucity of your thought process. It shows all you can think is if someone says one cautionary thing about guns ever, you immediately slap them with a label of an anti-gun-gonna-take-em-all-away-by-5pm-tonight-because-you're-skeered caricature. And then you try to also place the false hypocrisy label of but-you-probably-don't-even-wear-a-helmet-on-a-motorcycle-while-skydiving-off-a-horse bullshit lie.

It's stupid, and it's stupid every time you all do it. It probably makes you feel like you're some superior debater to assume that the person talking to you is a fucking idiot, but you show that you are thinking with emotion and not reason when you do it.

I own guns. I use them. I feel that safety measures are absolutely essential to owning them.
I also skydive. And race cars. And drive a motorcycle. And climb mountains. And ride horses.

And I feel - with all that experience - that it is the height of insane recklessness to skydive into a crowded bar, or ride a horse there, or race a car there, or carry a gun there.

I feel it's idiocy to ride a horse anywhere near an unfettered toddler. I stopped racing cars for several years because my kids were too small to be safe in the paddock, and when I did go back, I continued to race cars only in closed courses and not on the open fucking street. When I went skydiving it was absolutely NOT into shopping malls or public parks, it was a closed and controlled area far from powerlines and other hazards. And when I climb rocks I'm not enough of an asshole to do it above the heads of the general public who can be hit by falling rock.

But this is the gun-nut mentality. Can't think anything through, can't see the world outside themselves, make up stories and believe people are always out to get them, seeing enemies everywhere, and think a gun is no more dangerous than a horse or a fucking golf ball. Which is about the WORST kind of people to own guns, wouldn't you say?

Your proposals may seem reasonable until one considers that enacting them is equivalent to keeping horse riders locked to the spoke of a big wheel - very safe, but completely defeating the purpose of the pastime.

^^ this is stupid. I don't want people who use stupid logic walking around with guns thankyouverymuch.


I feel that an enormous amount of safety can be accomplished with gun control and still accommodate reasonable gun ownership and use.

If you think it's either all-or-nothing then you're someone I'd want to take guns from, yeah. Until you get a brain transplant.

 

[dismal]

Regarding the title of this thread: At this point I don't see any irony in these sorts of situations at all.

To be fair, Alanis Morrisette didn't really understand what irony was either and her song sold millions.

 

[Bronzeage]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/ohio-gun-shop-owner-fatally-shot-by-student

64-year-old James Baker was shot Saturday while students practiced weapon malfunction drills. The Clermont County Sheriff's Office says about 10 people were taking the class at the time at KayJayGun Shop in Monroe Township, about 25 miles southeast of Cincinnati.

What a shame that he died from promoting the more widespread use of guns.

A weapon malfunction is when a pistol is most likely to be fired unintentionally. It requires awareness and practice to not pull the trigger. Beyond that, the shooter is also most likely to be distracted with trying to clear the jammed cartridge and not be aware which way the barrel is pointed.

Not knowing any more about this incident, based on my training experiences(non-fire arm related) with power tools and machinery, 10 students is too many for a single instructor.

I doubt the 10 students as such is the problem. Something like this probably should be supervised 1 on 1 during the hands-on portion, though, the instructor ready to intervene if the weapon swings in an unsafe direction.

Apparently, he wasn't ready.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But aside from enacting your fascist, fun-police population control policies, there is little that could be done by society to prevent such things -

Au contraire, much could be done to make it far far less dangerous. Like stopping the notion that the average citizen can be competent at it with a little two-hour class. Like, of course, the instructor removing all bullets from the weapons of anyone in the class and only conducting the class with blanks. Like installing grip ID safety devices so that it cannot go off if you're handling it wrong. Like a million things.

I don't think the situation in question could be done with blanks. However I think they could use paint rounds--they sting but can only inflict serious injury if they hit an eye.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/ohio-gun-shop-owner-fatally-shot-by-student

64-year-old James Baker was shot Saturday while students practiced weapon malfunction drills. The Clermont County Sheriff's Office says about 10 people were taking the class at the time at KayJayGun Shop in Monroe Township, about 25 miles southeast of Cincinnati.

What a shame that he died from promoting the more widespread use of guns.

A weapon malfunction is when a pistol is most likely to be fired unintentionally. It requires awareness and practice to not pull the trigger. Beyond that, the shooter is also most likely to be distracted with trying to clear the jammed cartridge and not be aware which way the barrel is pointed.

Not knowing any more about this incident, based on my training experiences(non-fire arm related) with power tools and machinery, 10 students is too many for a single instructor.

I doubt the 10 students as such is the problem. Something like this probably should be supervised 1 on 1 during the hands-on portion, though, the instructor ready to intervene if the weapon swings in an unsafe direction.

Yes, because guns offer ample time for reaction, which is why they are such an ineffective weapon to kill people with.

 

[laughing dog]

Well, if this bonehead was shot through a wall, might anyone who had been outside at risk from some random bullet going through a wall and hitting them? Or how about the risk to anyone in the area from one of these people walking around locked and loaded?

BTW, making sure a weapon cannot be fired unless it is handled properly is not analogous to locking possible horse riders to a big wheel.

How at risk do you feel driving past the golf course?

A lot less than walking past a shop where bullets are randomly flying. Duh.

 

[Rhea]

Au contraire, much could be done to make it far far less dangerous. Like stopping the notion that the average citizen can be competent at it with a little two-hour class. Like, of course, the instructor removing all bullets from the weapons of anyone in the class and only conducting the class with blanks. Like installing grip ID safety devices so that it cannot go off if you're handling it wrong. Like a million things.

I don't think the situation in question could be done with blanks. However I think they could use paint rounds--they sting but can only inflict serious injury if they hit an eye.

You don't think a gun-jamming exercise could be done with blanks?

 

[KeepTalking]

Regarding the title of this thread: At this point I don't see any irony in these sorts of situations at all.

To be fair, Alanis Morrisette didn't really understand what irony was either and her song sold millions.

I think you missed the meta irony in that song.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

To be fair, Alanis Morrisette didn't really understand what irony was either and her song sold millions.

I think you missed the meta irony in that song.

No he didn't. Morrisette just used the word wrong. Do we have to have this exact same conversation every single decade?

 

[Jarhyn]

No. It's not about protecting you from yourself. It's about protecting OTHERS. What? You think that nutbag who shot up Pulse thought he was doing something wrong? What about the people who bomb and shoot up abortion clinics. Do you think they thought they had something wrong with themselves? Human minds, and ironically ESPECIALLY the kinds prone to becoming weapons in the context of every day life, are liable to snap, and hurt people. Or just accidentally hurt people. You shouldn't have one if you don't have need of one. Hunting for food or ecological control purposes? Great. Walking around being prepared to kill people? NOPE. Hiring for the sake of 'sport', killing to get your jollies? NOPE. Perfecting your skills to kill people or animals, for sport or violence by bringing actual, live weapons with you? NOPE.

When you plan a society around an assumption of violent intent and disregard for your fellow persons, by carting lethal weapons around, you create an environment ripe for tragedies like Pulse, or this instructor's death.

Try to focus. This thread isn't about mass shootings, or self-defense with weapons, or any of the other stupidity in this recent post of yours.

It's about a person and his acquaintances engaging in a dangerous pastime (like so many people do - sky diving, mountain climbing, car racing) whose life happened to be claimed by that pastime (as occasionally happens with such things).

It's tragic. But aside from enacting your fascist, fun-police population control policies, there is little that could be done by society to prevent such things - though Bronzeage brought up something that wasn't too bad an idea.

Contrary to your short-sighted analysis, this is entirely about mass shootings and guns in public places. Because it was a conceal carry course training citizen so they could legally go into public places with their guns, where they can, if they happen to have any of a number of common existential crisises, commit a mass shooting. It is about people turning themselves into weapons in the context of their every day lives. Not only does it mean that they may accidentally discharge a firearm and injure another person nearby, it also means that they may themselves BE a not-so-accidental discharge.

I doubt anyone would let 'disguised killer robots' roam the streets. But the thing is, a human with a gun is a killer robot. And a conceal carry permit disguises that capability.

 

[JonA]

Try to focus. This thread isn't about mass shootings, or self-defense with weapons, or any of the other stupidity in this recent post of yours.

It's about a person and his acquaintances engaging in a dangerous pastime (like so many people do - sky diving, mountain climbing, car racing) whose life happened to be claimed by that pastime (as occasionally happens with such things).

It's tragic. But aside from enacting your fascist, fun-police population control policies, there is little that could be done by society to prevent such things - though Bronzeage brought up something that wasn't too bad an idea.

Contrary to your short-sighted analysis, this is entirely about mass shootings and guns in public places. Because it was a conceal carry course training citizen so they could legally go into public places with their guns, where they can, if they happen to have any of a number of common existential crisises, commit a mass shooting. It is about people turning themselves into weapons in the context of their every day lives. Not only does it mean that they may accidentally discharge a firearm and injure another person nearby, it also means that they may themselves BE a not-so-accidental discharge.

I doubt anyone would let 'disguised killer robots' roam the streets. But the thing is, a human with a gun is a killer robot. And a conceal carry permit disguises that capability.

You think grown men and women should content themselves with foam and lights and that guns turn people into "killer robots".

And I think I have better ways to use my time than arguing with someone who is clearly insane.

Sorry.

 

[JonA]

How at risk do you feel driving past the golf course?

A lot less than walking past a shop where bullets are randomly flying. Duh.

Randomly flying?

Says who?

 

[laughing dog]

A lot less than walking past a shop where bullets are randomly flying. Duh.

Randomly flying?

Says who?

Says the evidence and basic reason. The victim in this case was in the another room. Do you have any actual evidence that someone deliberately aimed his or her weapon at this person in the other room?

 

[Rhea]

A lot less than walking past a shop where bullets are randomly flying. Duh.

Randomly flying?

Says who?

Oh! You think this was a deliberate murder?
I did not see that coming.