Is Crypto dying or just dropping for the moment?

[funinspace]

But my own reference only contained a partial picture, as I was dealing with what you focused upon. China's total private/public debt isn't in any better shape than the US. See the first interactive chart (Total debt-to-GDP ratios in major economies) in the below reference. The US, China, and the EU are all around 290% for total debt of all types.

Ref: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/china-economy-charts-show-how-much-debt-has-grown.html

It pretty much hasn't made the western news but China has been seizing assets from the rich recently, and it's reaching down. It's not just a crackdown on big tech.

Yeah, western news is pretty bleak...

Doug Noland spent some time on China last Friday...with lots of cited articles and further commentary...
http://creditbubblebulletin.blogspot.com/2021/09/weekly-commentary-easy-money-anesthesia.html

Risks grow exponentially during the “Terminal Phase” of Bubble excess. I assumed Beijing would move decisively to rein in excess, particularly in lending and apartment speculation. But what is now unfolding goes way beyond measures to contain excess. China has begun a transitioning phase, with momentous yet uncertain consequences and ramifications. What began seemingly as a campaign to rein in apartment speculation and crack down on the big tech monopolies has speedily developed into something much more systemic and Draconian.

 

[lpetrich]

It pretty much hasn't made the western news but China has been seizing assets from the rich recently, and it's reaching down. It's not just a crackdown on big tech.

Like what?

I've seen this: Ren Zhiqiang: Chinese tycoon who criticized Xi Jinping's handling of coronavirus jailed for 18 years - CNN

Recently, this happened:

• Why China Is Cracking Down on Its Technology Giants: QuickTake - The Washington Post
• China says crackdown on business to go on for years - BBC News
• China cracks down on showbiz for 'polluting' society and youth | Reuters

I think that it is why Vladimir Putin jailed Russian oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky, and why Mohammed bin Salman shook down several officials and business leaders in the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton Hotel. To show possible competition who's boss.

-

I'm reminded of the  Altalena Affair in Israel's War of Independence. Some background. As Zionists arrived in Palestine between WWI and WWII, they organized militias to protect themselves and to assert their claims. The most mainstream one was  Haganah ("Defense"), but some people thought that it was not assertive enough, and split off and formed  Irgun (Irgun Zvai Leumi, "National Military Organization", Etzel, initially Haganah Bet, "Haganah B"). Some of the Irgun's members thought that it was too restrained, so they split off and formed  Lehi (militant group) (Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel", the Stern Gang).

"Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948." It did terrorist attacks against the British rulers of Palestine, and also against Arabs. One of its leaders became Prime Minister some decades later: Menachem Begin.

Lehi went even further, wanting to fight the British in WWII and make an alliance with Nazi Germany to receive all the Jews that that nation didn't like -- even after word got out of the Nazis' mass murders of Jews. It also did terrorism, and one of its leaders also became Prime Minister some decades later: Yitzhak Shamir

When Israel became independent, Haganah became the Israel Defense Force, but the Irgun and Lehi didn't join at first. The Irgun arranged for a shipment of weapons aboard the Altalena, a former tank landing ship, but Israel's leaders did not want rival militias to exist, so they attacked that ship. The Irgun's members ended up being forced to join the IDF, and Lehi was also dissolved as an independent militia.

 

[lpetrich]

China's top regulators ban crypto trading and mining, sending bitcoin tumbling | Reuters
and
China Declares All Cryptocurrency Transactions Illegal - The New York Times

he clampdown in China comes as the country’s central bank has been testing its own digital currency, the electronic Chinese yuan. A notice posted by the central bank explicitly called out Bitcoin and Ether, the two most popular cryptocurrencies, for being issued by “non-monetary authorities.”

George Selgin, an economist and senior fellow at the Cato Institute, said that creating a central bank digital currency and making crypto transactions illegal were part of the Chinese government’s broader effort to channel citizens away from popular private financial services providers, such as AliPay and WeChat. A state-controlled digital currency would allow the government to collect data and keep tabs on citizens’ everyday transactions and would make it easier for the government to control access to an individual’s funds, among other concerns.

“This is really about establishing a state monopoly in payments,” he said. “The most obvious implication is that the state will have more opportunities to monitor citizens’ economic activity.”

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Bitcoin crashed. $48,000 to $40,000... back up to $44,000. Bitcoin is like Trump. No viable value other than paranoid right-wing fear, erratic, and it just won't go away.

 

[funinspace]

Bitcoin crashed. $48,000 to $40,000... back up to $44,000. Bitcoin is like Trump. No viable value other than paranoid right-wing fear, erratic, and it just won't go away.

Well, hopefully that doesn't work in reverse...aka...Clownstick is like Bitcoin. Cuz Bitcoin, far from found on road dead, is teasingly closing on its previous peak

 

[Rhea]

I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.

 

[funinspace]

I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.

Yes, in a perfect world the crypto currencies that rely on computer power for expansion of supply is ugly. However, humans (and Americans in particular) don't really seem to care much about the environment, at least in terms of their wallet. The 3 top selling vehicles in the US are the 3 large American pickup trucks, one hell of a commuter car. I think there is one real economy car in the US top 10 (our 11 year old Prius isn't even close top 10 anymore). We humans mine gold, diamonds and gems at great energy and environmental expense, and a significant part of that is so we can wear them as shinny baubles. How much of the world of air travel is for actual need over pleasure? How much of the things we buy are wrapped in plastics, gets throw away after that one use? In my supposedly more liberal area, clamshell plastics have no real destination anymore other than the landfill. The US's massive military is an environmental disaster all by itself...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is amazingly resilient eventually. The OP started when crypto dropped because of a sketch on SNL. Amazing how it can be so fragile and resilient. It is like the Patriots defense that'll give up 80 yards over 7 minutes, but only 3 points.

Exactly, just like that!

 

[funinspace]

It is amazingly resilient eventually. The OP started when crypto dropped because of a sketch on SNL. Amazing how it can be so fragile and resilient. It is like the Patriots defense that'll give up 80 yards over 7 minutes, but only 3 points.

Exactly, just like that!

Or like tickers: GME, MMAT, CREX, OSTK; or like oil and cotton prices

 

[TSwizzle]

Bitcoin hits $62,000~ !! Unbelievable.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.

Yes, in a perfect world the crypto currencies that rely on computer power for expansion of supply is ugly. However, humans (and Americans in particular) don't really seem to care much about the environment, at least in terms of their wallet. The 3 top selling vehicles in the US are the 3 large American pickup trucks, one hell of a commuter car. I think there is one real economy car in the US top 10 (our 11 year old Prius isn't even close top 10 anymore). We humans mine gold, diamonds and gems at great energy and environmental expense, and a significant part of that is so we can wear them as shinny baubles. How much of the world of air travel is for actual need over pleasure? How much of the things we buy are wrapped in plastics, gets throw away after that one use? In my supposedly more liberal area, clamshell plastics have no real destination anymore other than the landfill. The US's massive military is an environmental disaster all by itself...

Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

 

[bilby]

I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.

Yes, in a perfect world the crypto currencies that rely on computer power for expansion of supply is ugly. However, humans (and Americans in particular) don't really seem to care much about the environment, at least in terms of their wallet. The 3 top selling vehicles in the US are the 3 large American pickup trucks, one hell of a commuter car. I think there is one real economy car in the US top 10 (our 11 year old Prius isn't even close top 10 anymore). We humans mine gold, diamonds and gems at great energy and environmental expense, and a significant part of that is so we can wear them as shinny baubles. How much of the world of air travel is for actual need over pleasure? How much of the things we buy are wrapped in plastics, gets throw away after that one use? In my supposedly more liberal area, clamshell plastics have no real destination anymore other than the landfill. The US's massive military is an environmental disaster all by itself...

Bare minimum subsistence living sucks hugely, and pretty much the entire history of the human race since the paeleolithic era has consisted of our ongoing efforts to ensure that as much of our energy, effort, time, and productivity as is humanly possible has gone into pleasure, rather than actual need.

Stuff done purely for pleasure is literally the goal of human society. What the fuck is the point of existence, other than to do things we enjoy?

There's nothing inherently bad about doing pointless shit for the laughs. Living in a nice environment with a diverse biosphere, clean air and water, and pretty plants and animals is one of many worthwhile goals that's not strictly essential for mere survival. And wanting to fly to another continent just to gawp at some natural wonder or work of art (or wanting to get rich by running a complex calculation on a computer to mine virtual currency; or wanting to look pretty by adorning yourself with gold and gemstones) isn't inherently destructive to our environment. We choose to do these things in ways that are destructive, because we don't really care. And we don't really care, because we are largely able to divert the costs and hardships onto other people's shoulders.

It's always been that way; But we are, slowly, getting better at shouldering our own costs rather than externalising them. Carbon taxes, for example, can ensure that causing climate change becomes unprofitable, and/or that those who emit carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases pay for them to be removed from the atmosphere by whatever means are available - in an ideal world, the 'tax' would exactly match the cost of that removal, and would fall or rise as that cost fell or rose.

There are plenty of solutions to various environmental and social issues. But resolving them by not having fun is utterly stupid and pointless; It's a "solution" only marginally less catastrophically dumb than "just kill everyone".

 

[funinspace]

I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.

Yes, in a perfect world the crypto currencies that rely on computer power for expansion of supply is ugly. However, humans (and Americans in particular) don't really seem to care much about the environment, at least in terms of their wallet. The 3 top selling vehicles in the US are the 3 large American pickup trucks, one hell of a commuter car. I think there is one real economy car in the US top 10 (our 11 year old Prius isn't even close top 10 anymore). We humans mine gold, diamonds and gems at great energy and environmental expense, and a significant part of that is so we can wear them as shinny baubles. How much of the world of air travel is for actual need over pleasure? How much of the things we buy are wrapped in plastics, gets throw away after that one use? In my supposedly more liberal area, clamshell plastics have no real destination anymore other than the landfill. The US's massive military is an environmental disaster all by itself...

Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

My point is that humans do tons of things that consume tons of energy for pleasure/entertainment. I find it odd to single out crypto mining as bad for the environment. Though Americans seem far more disinclined to work towards using less carbon based energy, than the EU and Japan. It seems like the US is a long time away from accepting the idea of a significant carbon/energy tax increase. Of course that could partly be due to the reality that we have far more carbon based energy to make money off of...

Bibly, thanks for making a more detailed version of my point.

 

[Jarhyn]

Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

My point is that humans do tons of things that consume tons of energy for pleasure/entertainment. I find it odd to single out crypto mining as bad for the environment. Though Americans seem far more disinclined to work towards using less carbon based energy, than the EU and Japan. It seems like the US is a long time away from accepting the idea of a significant carbon/energy tax increase. Of course that could partly be due to the reality that we have far more carbon based energy to make money off of...

Bibly, thanks for making a more detailed version of my point.

So, the complaint that many of us have, and which is valid, is that we could do all the exact same stuff that we do with crypto today... Without the environmental damage.

It would be like if someone invented something identical to cigarettes but didn't cause negative health effects and people were like "naw, I wanna get lung cancer".

 

[funinspace]

Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

My point is that humans do tons of things that consume tons of energy for pleasure/entertainment. I find it odd to single out crypto mining as bad for the environment. Though Americans seem far more disinclined to work towards using less carbon based energy, than the EU and Japan. It seems like the US is a long time away from accepting the idea of a significant carbon/energy tax increase. Of course that could partly be due to the reality that we have far more carbon based energy to make money off of...

Bibly, thanks for making a more detailed version of my point.

So, the complaint that many of us have, and which is valid, is that we could do all the exact same stuff that we do with crypto today... Without the environmental damage.

It would be like if someone invented something identical to cigarettes but didn't cause negative health effects and people were like "naw, I wanna get lung cancer".

Choices choices...and the nearly 2 million full size trucks sold in the US each year are necessary for what? And who's entertainment and baubles are more legit?

 

[Elixir]

.... the nearly 2 million full size trucks sold in the US each year are necessary for what?

Critically needed to carry tRump flags!

 

[Jarhyn]

So, the complaint that many of us have, and which is valid, is that we could do all the exact same stuff that we do with crypto today... Without the environmental damage.

It would be like if someone invented something identical to cigarettes but didn't cause negative health effects and people were like "naw, I wanna get lung cancer".

Choices choices...and the nearly 2 million full size trucks sold in the US each year are necessary for what? And who's entertainment and baubles are more legit?

That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".

 

[funinspace]

So, the complaint that many of us have, and which is valid, is that we could do all the exact same stuff that we do with crypto today... Without the environmental damage.

It would be like if someone invented something identical to cigarettes but didn't cause negative health effects and people were like "naw, I wanna get lung cancer".

Choices choices...and the nearly 2 million full size trucks sold in the US each year are necessary for what? And who's entertainment and baubles are more legit?

That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".

If the point is the last paragraph, then sure yes to both, sort of, kind of. Because the US, today, cannot produce 2 million affordable trucks w/o ICE. The 'yes' sounds great for goals for the future...

As far as goals of trucks, probably 75% of those trucks are single person commuter vehicles, with a primary goal of "status"...one can tell by the shiny, unblemished looks as the lone driver is spotted on the highway/road going to their job in a building.

 

[Jarhyn]

That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".

If the point is the last paragraph, then sure yes to both, sort of, kind of. Because the US, today, cannot produce 2 million affordable trucks w/o ICE. The 'yes' sounds great for goals for the future...

As far as goals of trucks, probably 75% of those trucks are single person commuter vehicles, with a primary goal of "status"...one can tell by the shiny, unblemished looks as the lone driver is spotted on the highway/road going to their job in a building.

As I said, I'm not going to go into whether people have a right to do "things" for "status". Humans can and will pursue goals.

I can guarantee you that if the us government mandated trucks happen without ICE going forward, 2 million affordable tricks without ICE would suddenly start happening.

It doesn't matter what people do with them on this level of the conversation; what matters is whether they are built efficiently.

With Bitcoin, there is not even a material obstacle to forking it in a way that doesn't have the original inefficiencies. It is just the laziness of the programmers that keeps it so, and that laziness will evaporate the moment that their wealth generated from the platform is no longer flowing as they wish on account of it being rendered illegal until they fix it.

 

[Elixir]

That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".

If the point is the last paragraph, then sure yes to both, sort of, kind of. Because the US, today, cannot produce 2 million affordable trucks w/o ICE. The 'yes' sounds great for goals for the future...

As far as goals of trucks, probably 75% of those trucks are single person commuter vehicles, with a primary goal of "status"...one can tell by the shiny, unblemished looks as the lone driver is spotted on the highway/road going to their job in a building.

I have a year 2000 Ford F250, V10 gas burner. It spends the vast majority of its time hooked up to a 2-horse trailer, hauling back and forth from relatively close-by shows and clinics, and the rest as a construction/utility vehicle. I bought it in 2005 with 8k miles on it and today it has all of 41,000. I'd love to have an electric truck but can't justify the expense given how little use it would see. I'll just have to keep on destroying the planet...