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Is it racist for a prostitute to reject black men?

I'd be surprised if the Dutch or any other legislature where prostitution is legal would have the guts to explicitly exempt sex workers from general discriminations laws, even if they believed that such exemptions should be allowed. OTOH, I'd bet many legislators, law enforcers, and even many discrimination advocates in these place actively avoid any effort to point out or prosecute such discrimination no matter how overt and provable.

Of course they're not going to explicitly say (or believe) that sex workers have the right to discriminate. They have no reason to do that. But yeah, they're not going to prosecute it either; since like I've been trying to explain to Tom, the law is such that they will always have the right to refuse someone service. Even if one could succesfully argue that the law distinguishes between a prostitute just saying "no" to all black people versus saying "No black people" up front (which I really don't think one can); no police officer or politician is going to go after such a prostitute because to do so would be, in the eyes of society, akin to saying that one can force prostitutes to have sex against their will.

EVERYONE has the exact same right to refuse service. Any business can put up a sign that says "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" and they can enforce that for any reason except for reasons which have specifically been made illegal. A business with such a sign can't point to a customer coming in and say "Hey! No fags in here" because that's been explicitly listed as an illegal reason.

Prostitutes have the exact same right to refuse service to anyone with the exact same stipulations on that right. If a customer is refused service because of their race, the prostitute has run afoul of the anti-discrimination laws.

Yes, but few people give a shit that she is technically in violation of the law, which is why such discrimination is likely rampant and blatant and yet no legislators, law enforcers, or even racial discrimination advocates are doing anything to increase prosecution of it.
 
Yes, I understand that. I am quite willing to accept the theoretical possibility that there are exemptions to the law which apply to the matter. However, if a law clearly and explicitly says one thing and no examples of exemptions to that law are given which apply to the matter under discussion, I am going to assume that they were never actually created and everybody needs to follow the law because they haven't been given an exemption from it. You can't just assert an exemption to a law based on a theoretical possibility of an exemption to it.

Does the Canadian lawbook clutter itself with a million and one exceptions to every law on the books? Or, does it scatter those through the rest of the laws, to be found where they might apply? Or I suppose I should ask, have you ever read a lawbook that is both comprehensive in the situations where a given law might apply or not apply AND clearly legible at the same time?

The Dutch anti-discrimination law is very specific and detailed on this matter. It's text even includes a number of cases where it wouldn't apply. This isn't one of those and you've provided no reason to assume that additional exemptions which would apply are real things.

Except it doesn't really NEED to provide an exception for something that doesn't even fall under its auspices to begin with, does it? If a country's lawbook makes it illegal for a business to engage in discrimination, and only lists a few exceptions to that rule then that's all well and good. But that doesn't mean that just because a particular profession isn't listed under the exceptions that the law therefore applies; NOT if that profession isn't legally defined as a business to begin with. You keep arguing as if it's established that prostitute = a business, when the law doesn't state that at all.

The rational course of action in this case is to assume that the law says what the law says and not something completely different from what the law says because of some vague and generic "maybe" which you can't back up.

No, the rational course of action is to look at the spirit of the law. We're dealing with an apparent (but not really) conflict between two sets of laws. Law A states that businesses can't discriminate, Law B states that prostitutes have the right to refuse service. Like I said, there's not necessarily any real conflict between these two laws because prostitutes are not necessarily defined as businesses that are subject to Law A. But let's assume for a moment that they are. You're trying to argue that because law A says what it says, that therefore the relevant part of Law B doesn't apply. Of course, you have no real reason to state that one supersedes the other on its own.

There's nothing in the lawbook that suggests one of these laws outranks the other (although the fact that Law B specifically deals with the specific profession we're talking about *should* suggest that it does in fact supersede law A); therefore we must look at the spirit of the law. Both Law A and Law B are designed to protect people. If we were to apply Law A in this profession the same way we do elsewhere, however, that *creates* harm for the prostitute in that the result would constitute rape at worst or loss of livelihood at best; while at the same time the prospective client would suffer harm that is much less severe in scope. So, therefore, based on the spirit of the law as a whole, Law B takes point here.
 
Except it doesn't really NEED to provide an exception for something that doesn't even fall under its auspices to begin with, does it? If a country's lawbook makes it illegal for a business to engage in discrimination, and only lists a few exceptions to that rule then that's all well and good. But that doesn't mean that just because a particular profession isn't listed under the exceptions that the law therefore applies; NOT if that profession isn't legally defined as a business to begin with. You keep arguing as if it's established that prostitute = a business, when the law doesn't state that at all.

Actually, it does mean that it's a business. That's what "self-employed" means in your country. It doesn't limit itself to certain professions or how you've registered yourself but has to do with conducting transactions for the sake of making a profit. There's no particular difference for that term in Netherlands than there is in most any other country and your country has all the same kinds of tax forms and regulations convering this type of employment as my and most other countries do. When engaging in business, they are obligated to conform to labour laws. These things are clearly detailed facts about Dutch law.

Now, I am quite willing to admit a lack of specific knowledge regarding Dutch law. My exposure to it consists of googling around this afternoon. That doesn't change the fact that I was able to present a specific law which specifically applies to the matter under discussion. I am quite willing to admit that there may be several other relevant aspects of Dutch law which override the one I found and grant sex workers an exemption to the anti-discrimination regulations when conducting business. None of those have been provided, however, and the lack of backing up the claim that they exist with anything beyond vague assertions isn't a decent reason to assume that the prostitutes are exempt from these laws.

Also, what is the law you keep talking about (you referred to it as Law B) which differentiates the prostitutes right to refuse service from any other business's right to refuse service, which is limited by the ETA?
 
that *creates* harm for the prostitute in that the result would constitute rape at worst or loss of livelihood at best; while at the same time the prospective client would suffer harm that is much less severe in scope. So, therefore, based on the spirit of the law as a whole, Law B takes point here.
This is essentially why I take the side of the racist whore on lesser of two evil moral grounds. I was quite surprised at the posters trying to argue prostitution is just like any other profession therefore she should just toughen up and do her job like anyone else. What was particular funny were the SJW's that think its ok to pressure women into having unwanted sex to fight racism yet consider a man simply saying he was friend-zoned a sex entitled creep.
 
Except it doesn't really NEED to provide an exception for something that doesn't even fall under its auspices to begin with, does it? If a country's lawbook makes it illegal for a business to engage in discrimination, and only lists a few exceptions to that rule then that's all well and good. But that doesn't mean that just because a particular profession isn't listed under the exceptions that the law therefore applies; NOT if that profession isn't legally defined as a business to begin with. You keep arguing as if it's established that prostitute = a business, when the law doesn't state that at all.

Actually, it does mean that it's a business. That's what "self-employed" means in your country. It doesn't limit itself to certain professions or how you've registered yourself but has to do with conducting transactions for the sake of making a profit.

And where the fuck are you getting this? All businesses MUST be registered with the Chamber of Commerce; however, a 2009 change to prostitution laws was EXPLICITLY rejected by the senate on the grounds that it would force prostitutes to be registered. Do you really not see the disconnect there?


Also, what is the law you keep talking about (you referred to it as Law B) which differentiates the prostitutes right to refuse service from any other business's right to refuse service, which is limited by the ETA?

The prostitution law, duh? That's literally what it's called.
 
that *creates* harm for the prostitute in that the result would constitute rape at worst or loss of livelihood at best; while at the same time the prospective client would suffer harm that is much less severe in scope. So, therefore, based on the spirit of the law as a whole, Law B takes point here.
This is essentially why I take the side of the racist whore on lesser of two evil moral grounds. I was quite surprised at the posters trying to argue prostitution is just like any other profession therefore she should just toughen up and do her job like anyone else. What was particular funny were the SJW's that think its ok to pressure women into having unwanted sex to fight racism yet consider a man simply saying he was friend-zoned a sex entitled creep.

Special pleading for being a prostitute?

She can refuse to do her job some of the time, but not get fired.

But if other people in other jobs do the same, we can be fired.
 
Special pleading for being a prostitute?

She can refuse to do her job some of the time, but not get fired.

But if other people in other jobs do the same, we can be fired.
Special pleading for letting a woman choose who gets to have sex with her? You are correct I'm guilty of that. Like I said I find it hilarious SJWs like you don't have the same scorn for men in this case feeling entitled to sex. Since she's a whore she should just give it to anyone that puts up the cash right? But how dare those guys that say they've been friendzoned speak in such a misogynist tone.
 
I have a question for the social justice warriors. How do you feel about directors and producers using race as a criteria when they cast for roles? Is a sitcom or movie more sacred and deserving of exemptions than a person's body and choice of sexual partner?
 
Special pleading for being a prostitute?

She can refuse to do her job some of the time, but not get fired.

But if other people in other jobs do the same, we can be fired.
Special pleading for letting a woman choose who gets to have sex with her? You are correct I'm guilty of that. Like I said I find it hilarious SJWs like you don't have the same scorn for men in this case feeling entitled to sex. Since she's a whore she should just give it to anyone that puts up the cash right? But how dare those guys that say they've been friendzoned speak in such a misogynist tone.

Our scenario is that prostitution is legal.

She didn't HAVE to take the job.

Her not wanting to do her job is like someone signing on to be a trash collector but only wanting to collect the trash of her choice.

The job calls for someone to not be very picky since the men who go to prostitutes are seldom the creme de la creme of male beauty.

If she wasn't prepared for that, as has been said multiple times in this thread, she's in the wrong business.

As for men wanting sex...it's not called the oldest profession in the world for nothing.

Sure, go ahead and try to stop men from wanting to have sex. Go ahead. We'll wait.
 
There are two completely separate issues here; the conflation of which is getting lots of panties in a totally unnecessary wad.

1) Nobody, prostitute, accountant, shokeeper or anything else, is allowed to refuse to do business with a class of individuals based solely on the race of said individuals.

2) Prostitutes always have the right to refuse to do business with any single individual.

It is not OK to have an ad that says 'No black men' whether you are advertising prostitution, or car washes, or ear piercing.

It is OK for a prostitute to say 'No' to any potential customer, at an individual level. It is NOT OK for a prostitute to say 'No' to a whole race of customers.

It is OK for a prostitute to say no to a black man; or indeed to each and every black man who approaches her, as and when they do so. It is NOT OK for a prostitute to say no to 'black men' in general, as a pre-emptive condition for considering any black man as a possible customer.

the 'pre' in prejudice is the important part here. Discussion of whether or not prostitutes can be 'forced' to have sex with anyone are completely irrelevant - I don't see ANYONE in this thread advocating any such thing, it is a total red herring.
 
Dutch law EXPLICITLY criminalizes the act of forcing a prostitute to have sex. Forcing a prostitute to have sex is defined and understood to include ANY of the following criteria (this list is from a brochure on the subject put out by the dutch government to help identify forced prostitution):

• You have to hand over the money you earn (some or all of it) to someone else;

I find most of these rules are a good idea but I have a problem with this one.

The problem is that it precludes any agreement where you pay a percentage in exchange for facilities and bringing in customers. (A brothel advertizes, the individual prostitutes do not.)

While I understand the point of the rule it is too broad.
 
Her not wanting to do her job is like someone signing on to be a trash collector but only wanting to collect the trash of their choice.
So we can add trash collector to the lst of jobs some of you think is similar to having sex.
The job calls for someone to not be very picky since the men who go to prostitutes are seldom the creme de la creme of male beauty.
So you are the one to determine how picky another person can be regarding their choice in sexual partner? The whores that are picky and have made a living with their personal standards might disagree with what the job calls for.
If she wasn't prepared for that, as has been said multiple times in this thread, she's in the wrong business.
She wasn't until others like you insisted they know better than her who she should be having sex with.

Sure, go ahead and try to stop men from wanting to have sex. Go ahead. We'll wait.
I'm not a SJW that cries about men feeling entitled to sex.
 
So we can add trash collector to the lst of jobs some of you think is similar to having sex.

It's similar in that it's a chosen job. Hello!

The job calls for someone to not be very picky since the men who go to prostitutes are seldom the creme de la creme of male beauty.
So you are the one to determine how picky another person can be regarding their choice in sexual partner?

I sure am when they're the ones who decided being a paid for penis holster was a good job choice that would appeal to their sensibilities.

The whores that are picky and have made a living with their personal standards might disagree with what the job calls for.

Then they should work for themselves and not a business that expects results.

If she wasn't prepared for that, as has been said multiple times in this thread, she's in the wrong business.
She wasn't until others like you insisted they know better than her who she should be having sex with.

And who is that? Apparently almost anyone who will open his wallet. If she was that picky about who she has sex with, she wouldn't be a prostitute. Ya think?

Sure, go ahead and try to stop men from wanting to have sex. Go ahead. We'll wait.
I'm not a SJW that cries about men feeling entitled to sex.

Not saying one way or the other. It just is.
 
1) Nobody, prostitute, accountant, shokeeper or anything else, is allowed to refuse to do business with a class of individuals based solely on the race of said individuals.
We should clarify the bolded part. This thread is about moral preferences so you mean should be allowed.
2) Prostitutes always have the right to refuse to do business with any single individual.

It is not OK to have an ad that says 'No black men' whether you are advertising prostitution, or car washes, or ear piercing.

It is OK for a prostitute to say 'No' to any potential customer, at an individual level. It is NOT OK for a prostitute to say 'No' to a whole race of customers.

It is OK for a prostitute to say no to a black man; or indeed to each and every black man who approaches her, as and when they do so. It is NOT OK for a prostitute to say no to 'black men' in general, as a pre-emptive condition for considering any black man as a possible customer.
You're arguing that whores have a right to refuse anyone they choose but shouldn't be allowed to voice their restrictions. While I could see this stance as both allowing personal bodily integrity and discouraging public racial bigotry, I'm not sure the benefit of discouraging bigotry is worth the hassle to both the whores and black johns meeting in person before she rejects him.
 
We should clarify the bolded part. This thread is about moral preferences so you mean should be allowed.
No, I meant exactly what I said. This is, at least in part, about what the law is, not just what it should be.

If you want to say something, then you are free to do so; but don't try to tell me what I am saying.
2) Prostitutes always have the right to refuse to do business with any single individual.

It is not OK to have an ad that says 'No black men' whether you are advertising prostitution, or car washes, or ear piercing.

It is OK for a prostitute to say 'No' to any potential customer, at an individual level. It is NOT OK for a prostitute to say 'No' to a whole race of customers.

It is OK for a prostitute to say no to a black man; or indeed to each and every black man who approaches her, as and when they do so. It is NOT OK for a prostitute to say no to 'black men' in general, as a pre-emptive condition for considering any black man as a possible customer.
You're arguing that whores have a right to refuse anyone they choose but shouldn't be allowed to voice their restrictions. While I could see this stance as both allowing personal bodily integrity and discouraging public racial bigotry, I'm not sure the benefit of discouraging bigotry is worth the hassle to both the whores and black johns meeting in person before she rejects him.
I am. Not least because despite people's racism, they often discover that their generalization doesn't actually apply universally to the entire class of people to whom they claim it does.

This is particularly obvious when you hear people make racist statements, and when you challenge them with the fact that they associate with a person of the race they just denigrated, they say something along the lines of 'Well, not John, he's OK. But most black people/jews/arabs/mexicans are lazy"

At the end of the day, each person has the right to be considered as an individual before being rejected; and that principle applies in all circumstances. It is also the law in most civilised jurisdictions - and one indicator of a civilised jurisdiction, IMO, is that prostitution is lawful.
 
It's similar in that it's a chosen job. Hello!
Similar in that one aspect yet fundamentally different otherwise.

The job calls for someone to not be very picky since the men who go to prostitutes are seldom the creme de la creme of male beauty.
So you are the one to determine how picky another person can be regarding their choice in sexual partner?
I sure am when they're the ones who decided being a paid for penis holster was a good job choice that would appeal to their sensibilities.
So you're better at making personal choices for them since they're lowly whores.
Then they should work for themselves and not a business that expects results.
Many whores do work for themselves.

And who is that? Apparently almost anyone who will open his wallet. If she was that picky about who she has sex with, she wouldn't be a prostitute. Ya think?
No I don't think that at least not for high end whores. Not all whores accept all comers like a crack ho might.
 
No, I meant exactly what I said. This is, at least in part, about what the law is, not just what it should be.

If you want to say something, then you are free to do so; but don't try to tell me what I am saying.
Well since we are discussing a hypothetical legalized prostitution you are clearly incorrect about what the law IS. Besides the earlier posts about what the law actually IS where it is legal shows you are wrong as well.
 
No, I meant exactly what I said. This is, at least in part, about what the law is, not just what it should be.

If you want to say something, then you are free to do so; but don't try to tell me what I am saying.
Well since we are discussing a hypothetical legalized prostitution you are clearly incorrect about what the law IS. Besides the earlier posts about what the law actually IS where it is legal shows you are wrong as well.

You might be discussing a hypothetical; I am living in a civilised country, where there is nothing hypothetical about it.

Your misfortune need not guide my posting; and you do not get to tell others what they meant. If you don't agree with me, that's your prerogative; if you don't understand what I say, feel free to ask what I mean. But you don't get to tell me what I mean.
 
You might be discussing a hypothetical; I am living in a civilised country, where there is nothing hypothetical about it.

Your misfortune need not guide my posting; and you do not get to tell others what they meant. If you don't agree with me, that's your prerogative; if you don't understand what I say, feel free to ask what I mean. But you don't get to tell me what I mean.
Well then post the law like Dystopian for his jurisdiction did and we'll see if in fact whores can't be legally coerced into having sex with someone they don't want to.
 
You might be discussing a hypothetical; I am living in a civilised country, where there is nothing hypothetical about it.

Your misfortune need not guide my posting; and you do not get to tell others what they meant. If you don't agree with me, that's your prerogative; if you don't understand what I say, feel free to ask what I mean. But you don't get to tell me what I mean.
Well then post the law like Dystopian for his jurisdiction did and we'll see if in fact whores can't be legally coerced into having sex with someone they don't want to.

They can't. Are you arguing that they can?
 
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