Politics Is it time for the west to assemble an army and kick Putin out of Ukraine?

[Jayjay]

No one thinks Russia would continue to march beyond Ukraine because that would mean invading NATO countries and probably starting WW3.

There's Moldova before that. And after that Russia could turn East to taking rest of Georgia, and maybe a piece of Kazakhstan. And then there's Azerbaijan and Armenia to fuck around with.

In Europe, Serbia and Kosovo could have another war. And Bosnia Herzegovina is a mess that could fall apart any time.

So, there are plenty of things on Russia's To-Do list even after Ukraine, but before WW3.

 

[Patooka]

I on the other hand say it is not even close to time for the West to assemble an army.

Why?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The Domino theory was complete bullshit. The problem was that western thinkers completely ignored how extremely exploitative colonialism had been. These thinkers saw USSR corrupting the world with communist propaganda, like a pedophile with a van full of free candy. But the west was doing it to themselves. All USSR did was to present any other alternative story than European and American benevolence.

Have you not noticed Russia attacking it's neighbors again and again? Same old formula--support some rebels, get them to declare themselves the government, come to their aid. If they can win with propaganda they do but they're willing to resort to force.

Note that Russia may saber-rattle but hasn't gone after a NATO country. The best way to win a war is ensure it's never fought in the first place.

That's not the domino theory. That's just back to the "good" old days of imperial conquest. Domino theory is specifically about the spread of communism. Exactly how communist is Russia now? The fact that they've kept going, as if nothing has changed, disproves domino theory.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Another thing I don't like about Domino theory is that it's so amazingly arrogant. The mere formulation of the theory reduces communists to mindless brainwashed puppets. As if communism is some sort of virus only infecting the weak willed. Implying that defenders of free market capitalism are uniquely enlightened and of superior intellect. Rather than acknowledging that free market capitalism has it's flaws and has at times, needlessly, led to immense pain and suffering.

Whenever a smart person reaches a different opinion than you, it's always best to stop and have a think whether or not they might know something that you don't.

The main problem, as I see it, with the cold war is that both sides were telling themselves absurdly simplistic stories. They had completely misunderstood their opponents or what they were fighting for, or what they believed. Everybody was delusional.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Have you not noticed Russia attacking it's neighbors again and again? Same old formula--support some rebels, get them to declare themselves the government, come to their aid. If they can win with propaganda they do but they're willing to resort to force.

Have you not noticed the United States of America attacking it's neighbors again and again? Same old formula--support some rebels, get them to declare themselves the government, come to their aid. If they can win with propaganda they do but they're willing to resort to force.

It’s been a tried and tested technique since WWII, and both superpowers have used it to expand their spheres of control, and to deny such expansion to their rival.

Sure, it’s evil and vile behaviour; But don’t pretend that it sets Russia apart from the rest of the world, because it really doesn’t.

Every country tries to increase their sphere of influence. You bet the USA is one of the worst at it. But here's the difference: Russia is taking land. They are killing people. Stealing their grain. Stealing their tractors. Do US soldiers commit evil acts. You bet. In the Russian Army, it's expected. Show me a single Russian soldier who is currently being investigated. The Russians are sending in the Wagner Nazis to kill and torture civilians (and retreating Russians). Wagner isn't sent in to fight Ukranian soldiers. Russia currently is set apart from the world. There is no doubt about it. Want to complain about the US invasion of Iraq. Fine. I'll join you. That was almost 20 years ago. But there was no intentional levelling of cities. No intentional killing of civilians.

Meh. Tell it to the Vietnamese.

Oh please. I'm an American Indian. The US government was far harder on Indians than Vietnamese. And yet I shouldn't support another country's desire to not have their land stolen because of that? Dr. Zoidberg is from Denmark. Ever hear of the Vikings? People from his country better not complain about imperialism either. Sorry but this argument is absolutely absurd.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I on the other hand say it is not even close to time for the West to assemble an army.

Why?

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

 

[Jayjay]

I on the other hand say it is not even close to time for the West to assemble an army.

Why?

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

So when someone violates that principle, we shouldn't do anything about it? Seems a little bit self-contradictory to me.

 

[bilby]

I on the other hand say it is not even close to time for the West to assemble an army.

Why?

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

Violating that attitude also prevented the Third Reich from completing their occupation of every country in Europe that wasn’t an ally of theirs.

We don’t live in simpleton world where no history exists. It’s undisputed by any serious historian that had the UK and France not declared war on Germany in response to Germany invading Poland, the result would have been disastrous; Nor is it disputed that had the UK and France intervened earlier - in defence of Czechoslovakia, for example - the war would have been far shorter and massively less deadly and destructive than it actually was.

To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, obvious, and wrong. Your doctrine of national self defence is such an answer - it’s a recipe for the complete domination of the world by whoever is the most aggressive and violent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Have you not noticed Russia attacking it's neighbors again and again? Same old formula--support some rebels, get them to declare themselves the government, come to their aid. If they can win with propaganda they do but they're willing to resort to force.

Have you not noticed the United States of America attacking it's neighbors again and again? Same old formula--support some rebels, get them to declare themselves the government, come to their aid. If they can win with propaganda they do but they're willing to resort to force.

It’s been a tried and tested technique since WWII, and both superpowers have used it to expand their spheres of control, and to deny such expansion to their rival.

Sure, it’s evil and vile behaviour; But don’t pretend that it sets Russia apart from the rest of the world, because it really doesn’t.

Every country tries to increase their sphere of influence. You bet the USA is one of the worst at it. But here's the difference: Russia is taking land. They are killing people. Stealing their grain. Stealing their tractors. Do US soldiers commit evil acts. You bet. In the Russian Army, it's expected. Show me a single Russian soldier who is currently being investigated. The Russians are sending in the Wagner Nazis to kill and torture civilians (and retreating Russians). Wagner isn't sent in to fight Ukranian soldiers. Russia currently is set apart from the world. There is no doubt about it. Want to complain about the US invasion of Iraq. Fine. I'll join you. That was almost 20 years ago. But there was no intentional levelling of cities. No intentional killing of civilians.

Meh. Tell it to the Vietnamese.

Who created the breakaway puppet??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Domino theory was complete bullshit. The problem was that western thinkers completely ignored how extremely exploitative colonialism had been. These thinkers saw USSR corrupting the world with communist propaganda, like a pedophile with a van full of free candy. But the west was doing it to themselves. All USSR did was to present any other alternative story than European and American benevolence.

Have you not noticed Russia attacking it's neighbors again and again? Same old formula--support some rebels, get them to declare themselves the government, come to their aid. If they can win with propaganda they do but they're willing to resort to force.

Note that Russia may saber-rattle but hasn't gone after a NATO country. The best way to win a war is ensure it's never fought in the first place.

That's not the domino theory. That's just back to the "good" old days of imperial conquest. Domino theory is specifically about the spread of communism. Exactly how communist is Russia now? The fact that they've kept going, as if nothing has changed, disproves domino theory.

It's not specifically about communism, but power.

Russia will chip away at anything it thinks it can chip away at. Not fighting just means fighting later when they are more powerful.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, obvious, and wrong. Your doctrine of national self defence is such an answer - it’s a recipe for the complete domination of the world by whoever is the most aggressive and violent.

Yup, and why it's important to stop said aggressors as early as feasible.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I on the other hand say it is not even close to time for the West to assemble an army.

Why?

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

Violating that attitude also prevented the Third Reich from completing their occupation of every country in Europe that wasn’t an ally of theirs.

Violating that attitude CREATED the Third Reich and the potential for the occupation of every country in Europe that wasn't an ally of theirs. That's why I stated that the 20th Century War was from 1914 to 1989.

Your version of my position is "now that we are in the middle of a war, let us stop fighting and see what happens".

If you want to create a monster so that you can destroy that same monster you created, then I cannot state my opinion of you without violating TOS.

 

[Patooka]

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

So Russia invading Ukraine is Ukraine's problem, and the US should do nothing until Russia is on their doorstep.

Gotcha. Good plan. Should we dissolve NATO as well? Or should we build a time machine and stop WWI?

 

[bilby]

I on the other hand say it is not even close to time for the West to assemble an army.

Why?

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

Violating that attitude also prevented the Third Reich from completing their occupation of every country in Europe that wasn’t an ally of theirs.

Violating that attitude CREATED the Third Reich and the potential for the occupation of every country in Europe that wasn't an ally of theirs. That's why I stated that the 20th Century War was from 1914 to 1989.

Yes. And that’s why I said

We don’t live in simpleton world where no history exists.

Your version of my position is "now that we are in the middle of a war, let us stop fighting and see what happens".

Well then that’s simple. All we need to do is to adopt your position at a time when there’s no war going on anywhere.

Don’t hold your breath.

If you want to create a monster so that you can destroy that same monster you created, then I cannot state my opinion of you without violating TOS.

If you want to pretend that there’s no monster, so that you can claim to be preventing monsters from coming into existence, then you are a delusional fool.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The Domino theory was complete bullshit. The problem was that western thinkers completely ignored how extremely exploitative colonialism had been. These thinkers saw USSR corrupting the world with communist propaganda, like a pedophile with a van full of free candy. But the west was doing it to themselves. All USSR did was to present any other alternative story than European and American benevolence.

Have you not noticed Russia attacking it's neighbors again and again? Same old formula--support some rebels, get them to declare themselves the government, come to their aid. If they can win with propaganda they do but they're willing to resort to force.

Note that Russia may saber-rattle but hasn't gone after a NATO country. The best way to win a war is ensure it's never fought in the first place.

That's not the domino theory. That's just back to the "good" old days of imperial conquest. Domino theory is specifically about the spread of communism. Exactly how communist is Russia now? The fact that they've kept going, as if nothing has changed, disproves domino theory.

It's not specifically about communism, but power.

Russia will chip away at anything it thinks it can chip away at. Not fighting just means fighting later when they are more powerful.

Bullshit. Then how do you explain USAs lack of trying to conquer the world? They seem content with having established hegemony.

If domino theory is a general theory it should also apply to USA.

Domino theory is classic special pleading. Define your enemy as something unique that violates normal rules of engagement, that way we are justified in taking extreme actions.

 

[skepticalbip]

So if wars don't play out like a Tom Clancy novel then there's no point going to war? If this is not the time to defend a country from Russian aggression, then what would be the time?

I understand that wars are messy and there's only degrees of losing. But sometimes necessary anyway. Don't you think so?

There are so many moving parts that you glossed over in your initial post, this really is nothing more than a fantasy. The coordination and logistics alone would be a fucking nightmare. And if anything I'm understating that. Hence "The most stupid fucking idea I ever heard of".

How's that an argument against war? Most things when it comes to war is a nightmare. So? That's not a reason not to go to war.

Interesting. Are you volunteering to join an army and be in the 'spear point' unit sent in to drive the Russians out? Or are you volunteering to vote to send somebody else into the fray? I have long believed that those pushing for sending troops should be the first to volunteer. If Putin was required to lead his forces from the front then there would be no war in the Ukraine.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So if wars don't play out like a Tom Clancy novel then there's no point going to war? If this is not the time to defend a country from Russian aggression, then what would be the time?

I understand that wars are messy and there's only degrees of losing. But sometimes necessary anyway. Don't you think so?

There are so many moving parts that you glossed over in your initial post, this really is nothing more than a fantasy. The coordination and logistics alone would be a fucking nightmare. And if anything I'm understating that. Hence "The most stupid fucking idea I ever heard of".

How's that an argument against war? Most things when it comes to war is a nightmare. So? That's not a reason not to go to war.

Interesting. Are you volunteering to join an army and be in the 'spear point' unit sent in to drive the Russians out? Or are you volunteering to vote to send somebody else into the fray? I have long believed that those pushing for sending troops should be the first to volunteer. If Putin was required to lead his forces from the front then there would be no war in the Ukraine.

I agree with that. But I also believe that war should be a communal effort. Its something we need to vote about or have our elected leaders decide. And when the decision is made we allow ourselves to be our nations spear point.

My main problem with fighting to defend the Ukraine, we need an action plan for the peace. Less of an issue than for Afghanistan. But still an issue. As much as I want to defend Ukraine I don't want to volunteer only to enrich an oligarch while helping no one.

A friend of mine was an expert working with foreign aid. He said the only organisation I should ever donate to is the Red Cross. The reason is sheer size and political clout. Every other aid organisation inevitably ends up only enriching the local mafia, in one way or another. He was not affiliated to the Red Cross. He was a scientist.

My point with bringing that up, is that this also applies to the Ukraine. Just showing up on ones own initiative might do more harm than good, even if you only shoot Russians

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

So Russia invading Ukraine is Ukraine's problem, and the US should do nothing until Russia is on their doorstep.

Gotcha. Good plan. Should we dissolve NATO as well? Or should we build a time machine and stop WWI?

You think Russia will be on the US doorstep. You call me crazy.

Interesting. Are you volunteering to join an army and be in the 'spear point' unit sent in to drive the Russians out? Or are you volunteering to vote to send somebody else into the fray? I have long believed that those pushing for sending troops should be the first to volunteer. If Putin was required to lead his forces from the front then there would be no war in the Ukraine.

Of course he's not volunteering to put his own life on the line. He's calling for poor people and foreigners to die for what he believes in.

I on the other hand say it is not even close to time for the West to assemble an army.

Why?

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

Violating that attitude also prevented the Third Reich from completing their occupation of every country in Europe that wasn’t an ally of theirs.

Violating that attitude CREATED the Third Reich and the potential for the occupation of every country in Europe that wasn't an ally of theirs. That's why I stated that the 20th Century War was from 1914 to 1989.

Yes. And that’s why I said

We don’t live in simpleton world where no history exists.

Your version of my position is "now that we are in the middle of a war, let us stop fighting and see what happens".

Well then that’s simple. All we need to do is to adopt your position at a time when there’s no war going on anywhere.

Don’t hold your breath.

If you want to create a monster so that you can destroy that same monster you created, then I cannot state my opinion of you without violating TOS.

If you want to pretend that there’s no monster, so that you can claim to be preventing monsters from coming into existence, then you are a delusional fool.

Your position is that once you've made a mistake, keep making that mistake until it is no longer a mistake.

The 20th Century war ended. We had a chance for peace and to resume sane foreign policy. Now we're back in the same mess that caused the 20th Century war.

Do you need help funding a plane ticket to Ukraine so you can help them out directly?

 

[skepticalbip]

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

So Russia invading Ukraine is Ukraine's problem, and the US should do nothing until Russia is on their doorstep.

Gotcha. Good plan. Should we dissolve NATO as well? Or should we build a time machine and stop WWI?

There is nothing wrong with NATO but the original purpose has long since been accomplished. It was formed to prevent the USSR from invading Europe after WWII to give Europe time to rebuild from the destruction of the war. The USSR had build a hell of a military equipment manufacturing industry and Europe's infrastructure had been destroyed. Today the USSR no longer exists, Europe has long since rebuilt, the E.U. has five times the population of Russia, and Russia's economy is equivalent to that of Italy. Europe is fully capable of protecting themselves from Russia if they have the will to do so. Although European nations may want to keep NATO but there is no longer any reason for the U.S. to be a member of NATO other than for the war hawks in the U.S. that want an excuse to be in on any war that happens to come up.

 

[Jayjay]

Your position is that once you've made a mistake, keep making that mistake until it is no longer a mistake.

The 20th Century war ended. We had a chance for peace and to resume sane foreign policy. Now we're back in the same mess that caused the 20th Century war.

Russia doesn't think the war ended. It was just on a pause.