Politics Is it time for the west to assemble an army and kick Putin out of Ukraine?

[Loren Pechtel]

It's not specifically about communism, but power.

Russia will chip away at anything it thinks it can chip away at. Not fighting just means fighting later when they are more powerful.

Bullshit. Then how do you explain USAs lack of trying to conquer the world? They seem content with having established hegemony.

If domino theory is a general theory it should also apply to USA.

Domino theory is classic special pleading. Define your enemy as something unique that violates normal rules of engagement, that way we are justified in taking extreme actions.

Because we are a democracy, not a dictatorship. It's the dictatorships that want to eat countries.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Your position is that once you've made a mistake, keep making that mistake until it is no longer a mistake.

The 20th Century war ended. We had a chance for peace and to resume sane foreign policy. Now we're back in the same mess that caused the 20th Century war.

Russia doesn't think the war ended. It was just on a pause.

Yep. Putler has stated many times that he wants to regain all the countries that formerly made up the Eastern Bloc.

 

[Harry Bosch]

It's not specifically about communism, but power.

Russia will chip away at anything it thinks it can chip away at. Not fighting just means fighting later when they are more powerful.

Bullshit. Then how do you explain USAs lack of trying to conquer the world? They seem content with having established hegemony.

If domino theory is a general theory it should also apply to USA.

Domino theory is classic special pleading. Define your enemy as something unique that violates normal rules of engagement, that way we are justified in taking extreme actions.

Because we are a democracy, not a dictatorship. It's the dictatorships that want to eat countries.

Yep again! In general, democracies and dictatorships both want spheres of influence. Democracies have great soft power. Countries want to do business with them because they tend (not always) to be very predictable. Follow the rules. They want to enrich their citizens (because that's what keeps their politicians in power. Thuggish dictatorships like Russia have very little soft power. People don't like to trade with bullies. The reason why Russia's border countries mostly hate Russia is because of Russia's actions towards them. I heard Putler say one time that he wants his border with Ukraine to be similar to the US/Canada border. Well, if that is truly what you want: then stop bombing them dipshit! Send your hockey team to Ukraine to compete rather than your paratroopers. IMO, Russia will fail long term because it is far cheaper to exercise your soft power the way the US mostly does and other democracies, rather than conquer and hold.

 

[bilby]

You think Russia will be on the US doorstep.

They already are. You can see them from Sarah Palin’s house

 

[bilby]

Your position is that once you've made a mistake, keep making that mistake until it is no longer a mistake.

No, it isn’t.

 

[Patooka]

You think Russia will be on the US doorstep. You call me crazy.

No I don't think that. In fact I consider that highly unlikely. But not impossible. So I'll ask you again - do you agree or disagree that:

So Russia invading Ukraine is Ukraine's problem, and the US should do nothing until Russia is on their doorstep.

Or to paraphrase, do you believe that the US should do nothing about Russia until Russia is on their doorstep?

 

[RVonse]

After Trump left office it came out that the generals in charge of launching USA's nukes made a secret pact not to shoot their nukes if orders came for it. They all believed Trump was unhinged and couldn't be trusted to make sensible decisions about it. The same thing might have happened in Russia already. The order to shoot Russian nukes might as well trigger an army coup and Putin being deposed.

But that is not how I thought launching nukes works. The submarine personal and/or silos get their codes directly from the suitcase with no one else in the chain of command. So it makes no sense that a "General" could prevent it.

It sounds like you have been falling for CNN propaganda.

 

[RVonse]

In Russia, nationalists and imperialists control the entire Duma and the government.

Barbos is kept in the dark, is told what to say and has no access to the truth. If he had any idea of the realities that are apparent to those outside Putler’s propaganda bubble, he’d likely die of embarrassment.

I don't like this attitude. Barbos obviously has access to the same information we are. How exactly is he kept in the dark?

Your subtext is, "I am too lazy to come up with an argument, but I have access to more information than you, so just trust me".

1) nobody will be convinced by that
2) it's condescending

Like it or not, if you want to convince Barbos of anything you will need to meet him as an equal and respect his opinions.

Pro-war Russians don't support Putin out of a lack of alternative information

And he has been presented with a mountain of evidence for months now.
At what point in time should one give up trying to “convince” a person and start to wonder if they’re just dealing with a troll?
I don’t disagree with your comment but the “respect” thing died off pages ago. For the half dozen people or so that still wish to engage, he gets what he deserves.

If that's how you feel then stop engaging with him. Put him on ignore if he bothers you that much.

One thing that is absolute poison on any forum is the inability to accept that other people disagree with you or don't share your values. It is ok that Barbos thinks what he thinks.

It is the attitude we must have if we ever want to learn anything. I personally find it quite enlightening to try to understand those I disagree with. I like to switch the story in my head and pretend I agree with the idea and then try to genuinely argue for it in my head. Before just disregarding it

Konstantin Kisin unlocked it for me. Russians live in a den of unlimitless corruption, where nobody with power can be trusted and where other people's power always is a potential threat. In the west, we don't think like that. Our democratic institutions control the army and have effectively neutered the corrupting force of big business (yes, we have, if you don't agree you need to travel more). So we don't think like the Russians. On a fundamental level. It's not that they think might makes right. It's more that anyone will exploit their power, so it might as well be my side.

This explains why Russia thinks NATO is a threat. This explains why Russians are so cool about bullying their neighbors. In the Russian mind and mentality USA and Europe is doing the same thing as Russia.

So I don't think Barbos is trolling. He might be. I just see him as a product of growing up and living in an extremely corrupt kleptocracy. And by listening to him we can learn about how that experience warps his lens about world events.

It's super important, for everyone, to realize that we all have a warped and twisted view of the world. We all have a story that justifies the actions of ourselves or our teams. Everyone!

As far as learning to get along with each other and not cancelling others opinions and beliefs, I could not agree with you more Dr. Zoid. Especially since most of us live in a so called democracy where getting along means everything.

 

[RVonse]

Christianity introduced the one single story and narrative. If you don't agree with my way to see the world you are WRONG. People outside the Christian/Islamic hemisphere don't think like that. Not even Jews do.

People who are culturaly Christian have an extremely intolerant way of communicating. It's not normal and not healthy. It does not lead to a healthy and mutually respectful exchange of beliefs and ideas.

An exchange of ideas is only healthy if those ideas are not stupidly wrong.

But how can you know for certain what is stupidly wrong? And even if someone else is stupidly misinformed, how do you reach consensus using more insulting and caustic debate? Also keep in mind that these same individuals are probably living in your community.

IMO, best approach is the scientific approach of testing differing opinions in public uncensored debate.

 

[RVonse]

I was about to write Russia. But it's not really Russia that has invaded the Ukraine, it's Putin. Russians are his victims as well.

What do you think? Has this invasion gone on long enough? Is it time to make a show of force and push out Russia once and for all?

I think the time for sanctions and diplomacy has passed. The Ukraine is slowly being ground to dust, and will lose this war. If we (the west) don't step up and help them.

What do you think?

I don't agree with Putin but I also believe the western media has been misinforming our citizens with neoliberal propaganda. Russia is in control of nuclear weapons and as such (if you want to live), the correct solution will not include escalating of war and violence.

 

[Elixir]

Russia is in control of nuclear weapons and as such (if you want to live), the correct solution will not include escalating of war and violence.

America and GB are also “in control of nuclear weapons”. Doesn’t keep Russia from initiating wars and violence.
Despite the probability that Russian nukes are probably mostly or all non- functional, you expect everyone else to respect their power and don’t expect them to respect ours.
That’s why you come off as a Russian shill.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Russia is in control of nuclear weapons and as such (if you want to live), the correct solution will not include escalating of war and violence.

America and GB are also “in control of nuclear weapons”. Doesn’t keep Russia from initiating wars and violence.
Despite the probability that Russian nukes are probably mostly or all non- functional, you expect everyone else to respect their power and don’t expect them to respect ours.
That’s why you come off as a Russian shill.

Regardless if they work or not, and I would expect enough do, we cannot be held to nuclear blackmail. Not by Vlad, nor Kimmy, nor Xi. Not by any despot.

 

[Elixir]

Russia is in control of nuclear weapons and as such (if you want to live), the correct solution will not include escalating of war and violence.

America and GB are also “in control of nuclear weapons”. Doesn’t keep Russia from initiating wars and violence.
Despite the probability that Russian nukes are probably mostly or all non- functional, you expect everyone else to respect their power and don’t expect them to respect ours.
That’s why you come off as a Russian shill.

Regardless if they work or not, and I would expect enough do, we cannot be held to nuclear blackmail. Not by Vlad, nor Kimmy, nor Xi. Not by any despot.

Exactly my point.
But RVonse seems to think we should be cowering before the awesome might of the invincible Putler (who is getting his lunch eaten by a relatively tiny opponent), and not raise his ire lest he kick our butt.
I say fuck that, show some gonads and let him know that any use of nukes will be the end of him and the end of Russia. If Pootey is suicidal it’s going to come to that anyhow - let’s get it over with.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

After Trump left office it came out that the generals in charge of launching USA's nukes made a secret pact not to shoot their nukes if orders came for it. They all believed Trump was unhinged and couldn't be trusted to make sensible decisions about it. The same thing might have happened in Russia already. The order to shoot Russian nukes might as well trigger an army coup and Putin being deposed.

But that is not how I thought launching nukes works. The submarine personal and/or silos get their codes directly from the suitcase with no one else in the chain of command. So it makes no sense that a "General" could prevent it.

It sounds like you have been falling for CNN propaganda.

Anything other than accept your guy was wrong.

Reality: Everything pertaining to nukes operates by the two-man rule. Two people must be involved in doing anything with a nuke. That includes ordering it's release. That means the President + one other person.

 

[Elixir]

The Nuclear Command and Control​

System (NCCS)​

​

According to DOD’s Nuclear Matters Handbook, the​

elements of the nuclear command and control system​

(NCCS) “support the President, through his military​

commanders, in exercising presidential authority over U.S.​

nuclear weapons operations.” The system relies on “a​

collection of activities, processes, and procedures​

performed by appropriate military commanders and support​

personnel that, through the chain of command, allow for​

senior-level decisions on nuclear weapons employment.”​

Specifically, the NCCS provides the President “with the​

means to authorize the use of nuclear weapons in a crisis​

and to prevent unauthorized or accidental use.”​

No, "the suitcase" is not in charge, RV.
Having sole authority to order a launch isn't the same thing as being able to launch them yourself.

 

[Patooka]

But that is not how I thought launching nukes works.

Stanislav Petrov thinks you are completely full of shit.

 

[bilby]

“That's right, sir, you are the only person authorized to do so. And although I hate to judge before all the facts are in, it's beginning to look like General Ripper exceeded his authority.”

- Gen. “Buck” Turgidson

 

[Hermit]

Domino theory is specifically about the spread of communism.

Nothing prevents the concept of a falling domino tile resulting in the chain reaction of adjacent tiles falling being applied elsewhere. One example is the dissolution of the Soviet Union and loss of its satellite countries. Another is the Arab Spring.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The US government (when it stays within bounds) has the job of defending the US population. The UK government has the same task with regards to the UK population. The same is true for Germany, France, Italy, Poland, and any other country you could name.

Until and unless a threat is posed to native country, it is not the job of native government to intervene. Violating that attitude caused the 20th Century War, 1914 - 1989, and produced three of the worst and deadliest dictatorships the world has ever seen.

So Russia invading Ukraine is Ukraine's problem, and the US should do nothing until Russia is on their doorstep.

Gotcha. Good plan. Should we dissolve NATO as well? Or should we build a time machine and stop WWI?

There is nothing wrong with NATO but the original purpose has long since been accomplished. It was formed to prevent the USSR from invading Europe after WWII to give Europe time to rebuild from the destruction of the war. The USSR had build a hell of a military equipment manufacturing industry and Europe's infrastructure had been destroyed. Today the USSR no longer exists, Europe has long since rebuilt, the E.U. has five times the population of Russia, and Russia's economy is equivalent to that of Italy. Europe is fully capable of protecting themselves from Russia if they have the will to do so. Although European nations may want to keep NATO but there is no longer any reason for the U.S. to be a member of NATO other than for the war hawks in the U.S. that want an excuse to be in on any war that happens to come up.

But Europe does not have the will to defend itself. Europeans are completely delusional about how armies and power works. We're utterly and completely dependent on USA to protect us. Because we use our military spending unwisely. Now the EU wants to coordinate our armies to create a European super army. That is not going that well. Lots of politics and prestige compromises. The problem is European mentality. The same mentality that led to both world wars. Europeans fucking suck at cooperating and we suck at self preservation.

The European Defence Agency has some non-EU members. For example the Ukraine (since 2015). Did you just ask, where are the European armies coming to the Ukrainian defense? That defence agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Domino theory is specifically about the spread of communism.

Nothing prevents the concept of a falling domino tile resulting in the chain reaction of adjacent tiles falling being applied elsewhere. One example is the dissolution of the Soviet Union and loss of its satellite countries. Another is the Arab Spring.

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you exploring the metaphor of dominos? A poetic exploration of violent ideological spread?