Is Religious Faith just another Religious Myth

[DBT]

If there is division and conflict, it can't be a Divine Paradise. As the story goes, God placed division and conflict into His Paradise Garden in the form of forbidden fruit, a naive couple and a consummate Tempter. What could go wrong....

There were two tempters in paradise as the story highlights and as you put it,. Both being placed there, Satan got tempted too because of Adam. Both the Angels and Mankind will be accountable for what they do, being independently willed entities.

Naivity is a strong factor in terms of outcome. Not having knowledge of good and evil, decisions and their consequences, before eating from tree of the knowledge of good and evil, a naive couple is easily led astray.

The serpent played out its own role in the downfall of A &E according to its own nature without instruction or prohibition by God, for which it was punished. Everything going to plan.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Right. Run this by me again, anyone from the Sunday school advanced class. They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- isn't that how it goes? So, after eating the fruit, they realized they'd sinned, and that now they'd have to wear clothes and Eve found out that Adam was now her boss and that childbirth was gonna be a bitch (which means there never was a pain-free delivery, because Cain wasn't around yet.)
But, wouldn't they have had to eat a second piece of fruit, to have it qualify as the Fallen State of Man? The first piece let them know about good and evil, which means that previously they were happy, innocent airheads. The second piece would have qualified as degenerate fruit larceny. And, really, didn't God know all this was going to happen? Can he turn his prescience on and off, like Superman with X-ray vision? I think it proves that God has no experience with raising a puppy. The first time it runs around the house with one of your socks in its mouth, you just go, well, what can you expect, it's a puppy, for Christ sakes, it doesn't know all the rules. You don't make a big deal about the corrupt nature of all dogs and then put a curse on them. You gently reprove the puppy and then, because you actually love it, instead of saying you love it and having the local minister claim that you love it, you cuddle with it. And you forget the little transgression. It was just a sock/piece of friggin' fruit. (However, Adam did deserve history's first wedgie for ratting out Eve in Gen. 3:12. A real George Costanza move.)

 

[steve_bank]

Zeus must have reminded you that you're still using scripture against believers so you're still on track with mutual protocol. Don't worry yourself.

I chalk it up to my now good diet and daily exercise. No god needed. Just willpower to do it.

God has been saying that for quite some time. You have the potential and the WILL to do good things.

It does not take god to do good or evil. That is your trip.

I am more in line with Buddhism. There is a natural healthy state we are born into. The task is untangle yourself from the corrupting influences acting on and condition you. Karma simply means emotional causation, one thought leads to another. In modern terms simply self realization and awareness. Take away god and it all fits into modern psychology..

The idea of spiritual death and rebirth is far older than Christianity. It appears as practical psychology in many traditions cloaked in mythology.

There is a life long Tibetan Buddhist convert in my building. He has a mediation group. They all say they benefit. May Buddha bless you.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Right. Run this by me again, anyone from the Sunday school advanced class. They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- isn't that how it goes? So, after eating the fruit, they realized they'd sinned, and that now they'd have to wear clothes and Eve found out that Adam was now her boss and that childbirth was gonna be a bitch (which means there never was a pain-free delivery, because Cain wasn't around yet.)
But, wouldn't they have had to eat a second piece of fruit, to have it qualify as the Fallen State of Man? The first piece let them know about good and evil, which means that previously they were happy, innocent airheads. The second piece would have qualified as degenerate fruit larceny. And, really, didn't God know all this was going to happen? Can he turn his prescience on and off, like Superman with X-ray vision? I think it proves that God has no experience with raising a puppy. The first time it runs around the house with one of your socks in its mouth, you just go, well, what can you expect, it's a puppy, for Christ sakes, it doesn't know all the rules. You don't make a big deal about the corrupt nature of all dogs and then put a curse on them. You gently reprove the puppy and then, because you actually love it, instead of saying you love it and having the local minister claim that you love it, you cuddle with it. And you forget the little transgression. It was just a sock/piece of friggin' fruit. (However, Adam did deserve history's first wedgie for ratting out Eve in Gen. 3:12. A real George Costanza move.)

No, the whole purpose of the Genesis mythology is to instill the notion that you are to simply blindly obey god no matter what, or else you'll be punished. That's the very essence of Judaism and the only lesson in the "Adam & Eve" nonsense.

It's also what gave rise to the whole "free will" apologetic in the Christian cult (and the very basis of the "sacrifice for your sins" stupidity in the NT), but the problem with that contradictory bandaid, of course, is that to have free will we must be able to fully understand all of god's actions--and be completely free from consequences for making a "wrong" choice--in order to independently assess, judge and decide whether or not to obey (aka, "believe in" as its been modified) said god of our own free will. Any consequences for not choosing the "right" decision would necessarily mean coercion and therefore no free will, so the idea that a hell awaits (either god imposed as the bible has it or self-imposed as the apologists have it) means there is no such thing as free will.

It's why Calvinism can be the only "true" Christian sect, since it's the most Judaic of all the many splinter cults that came out of Judaism and affirms the notion that god is just to be blindly obeyed and no one has free will.

 

[steve_bank]

If you look at the fall as metaphor eating of the Tree Of knowledge means the rise of self awareness and loss of childlike innocence. No self awareness no sin.

Even today in the legal system lack of awareness is a defense. Lacking the mens rhea

The stories as metaphor makes a lot of sense culturally. Did the ancient Hebrews actualy belive there was a talking snake, or did they understand an underlying message.

No Greek probably took Aesop's Fables literally. Maybe 10,000 years from now there will be a religion based on the tales being true.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Did the ancient Hebrews actualy belive there was a talking snake, or did they understand an underlying message.

Well, if you read the NT as gospel (couldn't resist), then yes, they actually believed there was a talking snake, because Jesus and his adherents at least look to Jesus' death as "paying for" Adam's sin, which was to not obey god and that's why we die and only believing in Jesus (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) can we return to the paradise that A&E were kicked out of (or some variation thereof).

So, without a literal interpretation of the A&E nonsense, there is no Jesus dying for anyone's sins, or afterlife for that matter. It all hinges entirely on A&E being a real life event that actually occurred.

So, yeah, no Jew would believe such stupidity, but gentiles? Evidently so, which makes sense in that they were never Jews and were instead pagans, who held so many different beliefs in so many different idiotic things that it's nearly impossible to track.

 

[Learner]

Naivity is a strong factor in terms of outcome. Not having knowledge of good and evil, decisions and their consequences, before eating from tree of the knowledge of good and evil, a naive couple is easily led astray.

The serpent played out its own role in the downfall of A &E according to its own nature without instruction or prohibition by God, for which it was punished. Everything going to plan.

Well yes, which ever way you prefer to phrase it. Revelation reveals the plan.

Everyone knew the rules BTW, just as those knowing the rules i.e. laws and commandments much later, along the line.

 

[Learner]

Zeus must have reminded you that you're still using scripture against believers so you're still on track with mutual protocol. Don't worry yourself.

I chalk it up to my now good diet and daily exercise. No god needed. Just willpower to do it.

God has been saying that for quite some time. You have the potential and the WILL to do good things.

It does not take god to do good or evil. That is your trip.

I am more in line with Buddhism. There is a natural healthy state we are born into. The task is untangle yourself from the corrupting influences acting on and condition you. Karma simply means emotional causation, one thought leads to another. In modern terms simply self realization and awareness. Take away god and it all fits into modern psychology..

The idea of spiritual death and rebirth is far older than Christianity. It appears as practical psychology in many traditions cloaked in mythology.

There is a life long Tibetan Buddhist convert in my building. He has a mediation group. They all say they benefit. May Buddha bless you.

Shang Di, translated the heavenly King, highest deity and followed by Tian theology (heaven) from the mono-theistic theology in Classical China. They have Genesis that corroborates with the Hebrew Genesis which is much older than your Buddy the Buddha and Confucious too, who probably borrowed the golden rule no doubt, from Shang-Di - recorded text to be 4000 years old around the same as the Hebrews - perhaps around the time people groups left Babylon IIRC. While everyone, Western scholars and all, were too busy concentrating on the middle-East it hasn't been so widely known not even the Chinese today which is a good thing ...ie. less likely to corrupt I'd say. God works in mysterious ways that reveals itself later.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Everyone knew the rules BTW

"Knowing" the rules and having the capacity to understand them--which would necessarily include the ability to comprehend the ramifications/consequences if they are not followed--are two entirely different concepts. Which is why, once again, in Judaism, you don't need to understand the rules--or the consequences--you just need to do as you are told.

But in the Christian cult, god is supposed to be more lovey-dovey and it's your fault--not his--that you act the way you act and there's "free will" etc., etc., etc., which, once again, all requires that Adam and Eve would have ironically needed to eat the apple in order to understand not to eat the apple. So, other than the Calvinist extremism, there is no reconciling god's actions toward A&E in Christian dogma . AND, once again, to Christian cult members, A&E's eating the apple and subsequent expulsion from paradise were literal events, or else Jesus' alleged sacrifice isn't a sacrifice and we get no afterlife candy corn.

For Jews it's just, shut up and do what you are told.

For Christians, however, it's a whole convoluted mess of contradictory nonsense, which is why apologetics is the biggest racket in the game and there are some 22,000 different splinter sects that all think only they have the "true" Christianity.

 

[steve_bank]

It does not take god to do good or evil. That is your trip.

I am more in line with Buddhism. There is a natural healthy state we are born into. The task is untangle yourself from the corrupting influences acting on and condition you. Karma simply means emotional causation, one thought leads to another. In modern terms simply self realization and awareness. Take away god and it all fits into modern psychology..

The idea of spiritual death and rebirth is far older than Christianity. It appears as practical psychology in many traditions cloaked in mythology.

There is a life long Tibetan Buddhist convert in my building. He has a mediation group. They all say they benefit. May Buddha bless you.

Shang Di, translated the heavenly King, highest deity and followed by Tian theology (heaven) from the mono-theistic theology in Classical China. They have Genesis that corroborates with the Hebrew Genesis which is much older than your Buddy the Buddha and Confucious too, who probably borrowed the golden rule no doubt, from Shang-Di - recorded text to be 4000 years old around the same as the Hebrews - perhaps around the time people groups left Babylon IIRC. While everyone, Western scholars and all, were too busy concentrating on the middle-East it hasn't been so widely known not even the Chinese today which is a good thing ...ie. less likely to corrupt I'd say. God works in mysterious ways that reveals itself later.

Have you heard of Dhing Dhong?

As Joseph Campbell pointed out all myths pretty much portray the same human emotions, in the local metaphors.

Rambo was Homeric. A warrior on a journey back home. In today's metaphors and culture. John Wayne's film persona was a modern myth in our culture Rambo and John Wayne became verbs. To Rambo or John ayne a situation.

That is what myths have always been about. . Christians tend to be literal with no insight into the meaning of their myths.

Like talking snakes handing people apples....

BTW I am not a Bhuddits. I drifyed through a number of things in the 70s and took away some things that benefited me from all of it.

I ascribe to Freethought. Rejection as much as possible of fixed ideologies and -isms of all kinds.

 

[DBT]

Naivity is a strong factor in terms of outcome. Not having knowledge of good and evil, decisions and their consequences, before eating from tree of the knowledge of good and evil, a naive couple is easily led astray.

The serpent played out its own role in the downfall of A &E according to its own nature without instruction or prohibition by God, for which it was punished. Everything going to plan.

Well yes, which ever way you prefer to phrase it. Revelation reveals the plan.

Everyone knew the rules BTW, just as those knowing the rules i.e. laws and commandments much later, along the line.

The 'Rules' are one thing, and the ability to make informed decisions is another. A child, not having the experience of an adult, cannot see the consequences of their actions.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I took the liberty in bold to clarify the context. So what you are asking then is a lttle different and to the question " Did any parts of me exist (before you were born) I say yes those parts existed before in that context, just as Adam is said to have been made from the earth before he was human.

So learner is saying that you aren’t a human until you are born. Or at leas untuil you are conscious. Obviously, you are not you when you are conceived.
This is fun.

Good to hear it. Why make any real point when Rhea's being positive.

Kudos to Learner. He has broken ranks, moved away from the semantic silliness, even if incrementally. There is hope for humanity.

 

[Rhea]

The serpent played out its own role in the downfall of A &E according to its own nature without instruction or prohibition by God, for which it was punished. Everything going to plan.

Well yes, which ever way you prefer to phrase it. Revelation reveals the plan.

Everyone knew the rules BTW, just as those knowing the rules i.e. laws and commandments much later, along the line.

Leaner can you remind us again why the god decided to created the serpent?

 

[Learner]

It does not take god to do good or evil. That is your trip.

I am more in line with Buddhism. There is a natural healthy state we are born into. The task is untangle yourself from the corrupting influences acting on and condition you. Karma simply means emotional causation, one thought leads to another. In modern terms simply self realization and awareness. Take away god and it all fits into modern psychology..

The idea of spiritual death and rebirth is far older than Christianity. It appears as practical psychology in many traditions cloaked in mythology.

There is a life long Tibetan Buddhist convert in my building. He has a mediation group. They all say they benefit. May Buddha bless you.

Shang Di, translated the heavenly King, highest deity and followed by Tian theology (heaven) from the mono-theistic theology in Classical China. They have Genesis that corroborates with the Hebrew Genesis which is much older than your Buddy the Buddha and Confucious too, who probably borrowed the golden rule no doubt, from Shang-Di - recorded text to be 4000 years old around the same as the Hebrews - perhaps around the time people groups left Babylon IIRC. While everyone, Western scholars and all, were too busy concentrating on the middle-East it hasn't been so widely known not even the Chinese today which is a good thing ...ie. less likely to corrupt I'd say. God works in mysterious ways that reveals itself later.

Have you heard of Dhing Dhong?

No, so you're a Dhinga Dhongist then instead. How long is has this been about?

As Joseph Campbell pointed out all myths pretty much portray the same human emotions, in the local metaphors.

Rambo was Homeric. A warrior on a journey back home. In today's metaphors and culture. John Wayne's film persona was a modern myth in our culture Rambo and John Wayne became verbs. To Rambo or John ayne a situation. Like talking snakes handing people apples....

That is what myths have always been about. . Christians tend to be literal with no insight into the meaning of their myths.

Same human emotions and same themes. Classical Chinese practically mirrors the Hewbrew theology being isolated from each other thousands miles apart. What are the chances? But yes I'm sure he's right in some cases, can't be 100% the case for all of them though .

Apparently there are talking apes.

BTW I am not a Bhuddits. I drifyed through a number of things in the 70s and took away some things that benefited me from all of it.

I ascribe to Freethought. Rejection as much as possible of fixed ideologies and -isms of all kinds.

Fair enough.

 

[Learner]

Everyone knew the rules BTW

"Knowing" the rules and having the capacity to understand them--which would necessarily include the ability to comprehend the ramifications/consequences if they are not followed--are two entirely different concepts. Which is why, once again, in Judaism, you don't need to understand the rules--or the consequences--you just need to do as you are told.

The 'Rules' are one thing, and the ability to make informed decisions is another. A child, not having the experience of an adult, cannot see the consequences of their actions.

So how dioes one conclude that Adam and Eve didn't understand the rules? Not knowing (how to do) evil and sinning does not actually mean innocence is having the intelligent/ mental ability of a young child!

 

[DBT]

The 'Rules' are one thing, and the ability to make informed decisions is another. A child, not having the experience of an adult, cannot see the consequences of their actions.

So how dioes one conclude that Adam and Eve didn't understand the rules? Not knowing (how to do) evil and sinning does not actually mean innocence is having the intelligent ability/level of a young child!

It says so in the narrative. Adam and Eve only understood that they had 'sinned' after they had eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, so they hid from God while He strolled in the Garden.

 

[Learner]

It says so in the narrative. Adam and Eve only understood that they had 'sinned' after they had eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, so they hid from God while He strolled in the Garden.

Realised they sinned, yet they knew shame?

 

[DBT]

It says so in the narrative. Adam and Eve only understood that they had 'sinned' after they had eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, so they hid from God while He strolled in the Garden.

Realised they sinned, yet they knew shame?

Upon eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their eyes were opened. Up until the moment of realization their eyes were closed, they did not have knowledge of good and evil. They were naive about good and evil.


''Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.'' - genesis 3:7

 

[Learner]

It says so in the narrative. Adam and Eve only understood that they had 'sinned' after they had eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, so they hid from God while He strolled in the Garden.

Realised they sinned, yet they knew shame?

Upon eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their eyes were opened. Up until the moment of realization their eyes were closed, they did not have knowledge of good and evil. They were naive about good and evil.

''Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; .....


and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.'' - genesis 3:7

So how dioes one conclude that Adam and Eve didn't understand the rules? Not knowing (how to do) evil and sinning does not actually mean innocence is having the intelligent/ mental ability of a young child!

 

[DBT]

Upon eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their eyes were opened. Up until the moment of realization their eyes were closed, they did not have knowledge of good and evil. They were naive about good and evil.

''Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; .....


and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.'' - genesis 3:7

So how dioes one conclude that Adam and Eve didn't understand the rules? Not knowing (how to do) evil and sinning does not actually mean innocence is having the intelligent/ mental ability of a young child!

Not understanding the nature of good and evil means that you don't understand the consequences of your decisions in terms of good and bad.

You naively make decisions that turns out bad because you don't have the necessary information, no matter how good your brain, no matter how intelligent, you simply don't understand the consequences of your decisions in terms of good and bad...until, as the verse tells us, your "eyes are opened" and you do understand. But then it's too late, God curses you, your partner and the whole world over a poor decision made in naivity.