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Is Satan the Christian God of Knowledge?

Learner said:
Another Jesus and serpent verse.

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore "wise" as serpents, and harmless as doves.

EDit: Serpents don't represent evil in this verse whereas wolves do in context.
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Cool - another verse supporting the idea that it was an intelligent snake rather than it being possessed by an intelligent devil.
 
Learner said:
Some Christians have been seeing the underlined in the same way . There have been discussions on other threads in the past regarding the meaning of Ha-satan or that satan being merely a derivative i.e. adversary _ atheists were insisting on it. But yes the serpent in this contex would therefore be satan.
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They are wrong in the sense of a supernatural being. The description of the beast being punished for its part in the drama by having its limbs removed, forced to crawl upon the ground does not apply to a supernatural entity.

Plus 'satan' in old testament times referred to one who played the part of Adversary. Which could be applied to the Serpent as an animal in the garden playing the role of adversary, but this word usage, as 'adversary' should not to be confused with The Devil in New Testament times

'A figure known as "the satan" first appears in the Tanakh as a heavenly prosecutor, a member of the sons of God subordinate to Yahweh, who prosecutes the nation of Judah in the heavenly court and tests the loyalty of Yahweh's followers by forcing them to suffer. During the intertestamental period, possibly due to influence from the Zoroastrian figure of Angra Mainyu, the satan developed into a malevolent entity with abhorrent qualities in dualistic opposition to God. In the apocryphal Book of Jubilees, Yahweh grants the satan (referred to as Mastema) authority over a group of fallen angels to tempt humans to sin and punish them.'' - Wiki.
 
T.G.G. Moogly said:
So Satan isn't really the great deceiver as much as the great informer. The acquisition of knowledge certainly comes with a price but we shouldn't be blaming Satan for that, it's the same knowledge anyone can have, and comes with the same caveat emptor.
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Back in the 80s I read a series of books from Piers Anthony called collectively the Incarnations of Immortality. The premise was that death, time, war, nature, and even evil were jobs rather than gods. Satan wasn't a fallen angel, but rather a person who through a series of circumstances had qualified for the job of the lord of lies. As a result, no matter what his personal preferences, he had to adhere to the rules of his position. Satan has to be deceptive as a job requirement. In the book (IIRC) he fell in love with a woman, but couldn't win her affection unless everything he told her was a lie.

It was an interesting concept. Imagine if the devil HAD to be dishonest as part of his gig.
 
It is interesting that in all the transactions of God in the Pentateuch, speaking to Moses, Aaron et al,giving laws and rules to the Israelites, Satan as a divine and evil being is never mentioned. No warning about this evil divine being, how to recognize him and his devils, how to deal with that. It is obvious that to the writers of these fables, Satan was a concept that were not familiar with. It was a foreign idea,added much later. No mention of heaven, hell, or an afterlife. Not to be found in Judges or Joshua either. And I cannot recall any such being or concepts in the prophets. It is always fun to ask the zealous Christian types about all of this.
 
DBT said:
They are wrong in the sense of a supernatural being. The description of the beast being punished for its part in the drama by having its limbs removed, forced to crawl upon the ground does not apply to a supernatural entity.

Plus 'satan' in old testament times referred to one who played the part of Adversary. Which could be applied to the Serpent as an animal in the garden playing the role of adversary, but this word usage, as 'adversary' should not to be confused with The Devil in New Testament times
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Yes as it seems that satan (with small 's' emphasis maybe) has been used for "more" than one entity, and not forgetting as the "accuser", an overzealous prosecutor ,so to speak, looking for all the faults in man.

'A figure known as "the satan" first appears in the Tanakh as a heavenly prosecutor, a member of the sons of God subordinate to Yahweh, who prosecutes the nation of Judah in the heavenly court and tests the loyalty of Yahweh's followers by forcing them to suffer. During the intertestamental period, possibly due to influence from the Zoroastrian figure of Angra Mainyu, the satan developed into a malevolent entity with abhorrent qualities in dualistic opposition to God. In the apocryphal Book of Jubilees, Yahweh grants the satan (referred to as Mastema) authority over a group of fallen angels to tempt humans to sin and punish them.'' - Wiki.
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Satan or satans-plural appears in Enoch 1 which is much older , and I would have a different opinion to the suggestion that elements of the bible were influenced from the Zoroastrian and other ancient beliefs, as often said by atheists. What about the otherway round some theists would ask ... and why not: if the old atheists argument keeps saying e.g. that all the gods believed are all the same and no different ?

Also , the bible uniquely acknowledges and mentions many various gods of other beliefs, all worshipped at the same time (as according to the bible).
 
Learner said:
Also , the bible uniquely acknowledges and mentions many various gods of other beliefs, all worshipped at the same time (as according to the bible).
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Uniquely? Dude, that's just wrong. Pagans were very aware that there were as many pantheons as there were languages. Some writings would refer to 'Ishtar, called Inana by the people of (wherever).'

Or Romans conquering a place would find the local gods, compare them to the Holly Rolodex and say "Your Bath is a lot like our Minerva." And build a temple to Bath-Minerva. And a generation later, replace it with a temple toMinerva-Bath. Then a generation later, dedicate a new temple to Minerva, for a congregation that had been sacrificing to Minerva since their grandfather's day.
 
The bible is unique in its documentation of such pantheon.

"People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious"
 
So, what happened to all of those other gods then? Did Jehovah pull a Kronos and eat them or something?
 
Christianity happened. Pagan gods or idol worship rather, hasn't entirely dissapeared , still re-emerges under different guises or trends (depending how you take the view), new-age perhaps even some comic book characters etc..

(quite a few interesting vids on it).
 
Learner said:
Christianity happened. Pagan gods or idol worship rather, hasn't entirely dissapeared , still re-emerges under different guises or trends (depending how you take the view), new-age perhaps even some comic book characters etc..

(quite a few interesting vids on it).
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But isn’t the point in the Biblical account that those other gods are real? For instance, when Moses’ snake ate the Pharoah’s snake, that happened because the Pharoah called on the power of very real Egyptian gods to summon a snake.

If that’s what the Bible is saying, then generational drift in worship wouldn’t affect the fact that there are or were Egyptian gods wandering around. What happened to those guys?
 
Learner said:
Christianity happened. Pagan gods or idol worship rather, hasn't entirely disapeared , still re-emerges under different guises or trends (depending how you take the view), new-age perhaps even some comic book characters etc..

(quite a few interesting vids on it).
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Religion doesn't change when gods are involved. Only the gods change. History demonstrates that quite convincingly.

Lion IRC said:
T.G.G. Moogly said:
.....lands in gods magic garden, shares the gift of knowledge with our mythical parents,...
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How is lying to Adam and Eve "sharing the gift of knowledge"?
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What is the lie - or lies - to which you refer?
 
Tom Sawyer said:
But isn’t the point in the Biblical account that those other gods are real? For instance, when Moses’ snake ate the Pharoah’s snake, that happened because the Pharoah called on the power of very real Egyptian gods to summon a snake.

If that’s what the Bible is saying, then generational drift in worship wouldn’t affect the fact that there are or were Egyptian gods wandering around. What happened to those guys?
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Ok got you. Going by what I understand of the biblical theology, the earliest of gods were fallen angels (watchers) followed later by their offspring , the nephilim (and no doubt the odd human with high Kingship status maybe). The fallen angels were imprisoned and the nephilim gods died physical deaths and died out.

If I may mention. Demons or the evil spirits (the opposed to God) are biblically ; the nephilim . Mainly the result of the nephilim group that were killed in the flood. As according to scripture, these "wandering spirits" are the demons of the earth (not fallen angels) where God put them in limbo, for lack of better word, stuck without physical bodies, whereby they can neither enter into heaven or hell (yet).

The bible has strong emphasis :to beware of envoking spirits or to "test the spirits" etc.. This would include people who believe they're trying to communicate and channel beings from the pleiades or other realm in similar fashion, which is; I dare say, that even among the bogus, it could be dangerous to humans from the biblical standpoint .

(the best I can explain due to capability)
 
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T.G.G. Moogly said:
Lion IRC said:
satan told Adam and Eve they wouldn't die if they ate the fruit.
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Okay, let's go with that. How would they know what that was, what death meant?
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satan or God could have answered that question had Adam or Eve asked. Maybe they were scared to ask. Maybe they could tell by the sombre tone of voice that the word death meant something terrible. Maybe some creatures had already been observed dying. Scripture is opaque.

I think humans have an intuitive understanding of existential matters and the categories;
"to be" or "not to be".
 
Lion IRC said:
T.G.G. Moogly said:
Lion IRC said:
How is lying to Adam and Eve "sharing the gift of knowledge"?
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What is the lie - or lies - to which you refer?
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satan told Adam and Eve they wouldn't die if they ate the fruit.
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I think you may need to re-read your Bible.
Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from the tree of life. It was the tree of knowledge that god told them to stay away from. The serpent correctly told them that if they ate the fruit of that tree then they would have knowledge. They did and they gained knowledge - they realized they were naked.

Apparently the antipathy religion has for knowledge goes way back.
 
I quickly checked - just to be sure - yep. They died.
satan lied.
 
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