Is Satan the Christian God of Knowledge?

[skepticalbip]

I quickly checked - just to be sure - yep. They died.
satan lied.

Dude. Read your fucking Bible if you want to make claims of what the Bible says. The serpent told Eve that the forbidden fruit will make them “like gods, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:5), He didn't tell Eve it would make her live forever.

They ate the fruit and then knew good from evil so god kicked them out of Eden.


Why is it that religions hate knowledge so much - by this story, knowledge was the ultimate sin at that time.

 

[phands]

Good old xtian ignorance of the evil bible....as usual.

Although Genesis 5:5 lies about Adam dying at age 930, it makes precisely zero mention about Eve dying at all. But then, women don't matter to xtians in any real way.

 

[Politesse]

Err...

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.
Genesis 3:4

 

[abaddon]

2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

What does "in the day that thou eatest thereof" and "in the day ye eat thereof" mean? Die immediately? Or die sooner-or-later?

Also I wonder, were Adam and Eve immortal before they ate the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil and became mortal after? Why was God worried they might eat fruit from the Tree of Life and live forever? And how does anyone really know without layering on this or that interpretation since it seems unclear within the Bible itself?

 

[excreationist]

....Also I wonder, were Adam and Eve immortal before they ate the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil and became mortal after? Why was God worried they might eat fruit from the Tree of Life and live forever? And how does anyone really know without layering on this or that interpretation since it seems unclear within the Bible itself?

They weren't immortal since they didn't eat from the Tree of Life. That's why God was worried. Also in Revelation there is a Tree of Life.

 

[skepticalbip]

Err...

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.
Genesis 3:4

That is true but was in response to Eve's fear that even touching it would kill her. I saw nothing in there about the serpent telling her that it would give her eternal life.

 

[excreationist]

Christians might say Adam and Eve died "spiritually" that day.

 

[Lion IRC]

Good old xtian ignorance of the evil bible....as usual.

Although Genesis 5:5 lies about Adam dying at age 930, it makes precisely zero mention about Eve dying at all. But then, women don't matter to xtians in any real way.

Ignorance of the bible?
Read Genesis 7:21
It is very specific about who died.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Christians might say Adam and Eve died "spiritually" that day.

yeah, but they also say babies go straight to heaven.
Adding shit to the bible is expressly verbotten in scripture.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

satan told Adam and Eve they wouldn't die if they ate the fruit.

Okay, let's go with that. How would they know what that was, what death meant?

satan or God could have answered that question had Adam or Eve asked. Maybe they were scared to ask. Maybe they could tell by the sombre tone of voice that the word death meant something terrible. Maybe some creatures had already been observed dying. Scripture is opaque.

I think humans have an intuitive understanding of existential matters and the categories;
"to be" or "not to be".

So your argument is that in this paradise called Eden there existed fear, terror and death, even before they ate the forbidden fruit?

 

[Learner]

I knew there was serious danger as a 4 year old after some grilling instructions when my mother used to grab my hand as we crossed the road. Cars look gigantic when you're that age and I certainly didn't want to die then.

( best analogy I could come up with Im afraid)

 

[excreationist]

Christians might say Adam and Eve died "spiritually" that day.

yeah, but they also say babies go straight to heaven.
Adding shit to the bible is expressly verbotten in scripture.

I know a Christian who says babies and foetuses go to hell based on Psalm 51:5:
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

 

[Keith&Co.]

I knew there was serious danger as a 4 year old after some grilling instructions when my mother used to grab my hand as we crossed the road. Cars look gigantic when you're that age and I certainly didn't want to die then.

( best analogy I could come up with Im afraid)

Not analogous, though. Humans today ARE capable of discriminating between good and bad.
Adam and Woman were expressly described as being unable to make that distinction. It'd be more like your car choosing to start on the first day of your new job, knowing how important that first impression is.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I knew there was serious danger as a 4 year old after some grilling instructions when my mother used to grab my hand as we crossed the road. Cars look gigantic when you're that age and I certainly didn't want to die then.

( best analogy I could come up with Im afraid)

Not analogous, though. Humans today ARE capable of discriminating between good and bad.
Adam and Woman were expressly described as being unable to make that distinction. It'd be more like your car choosing to start on the first day of your new job, knowing how important that first impression is.

Sexual maturity aside, what transforms a child into an adult is knowledge and experience. So were these mythical parents children when they met the serpent? It's a fair question because these mythical parents had supposedly not tasted knowledge, sex or death. This is very childlike, children have no problem with nudity and children are very curious, which without adult supervision puts them in great danger.

These ancestral parents sound more like children living a child's life and progressing into adulthood.

And has Lion talked himself into a corner? Is not this Garden free of cares, danger, fear, disease, death, etc? If it is not, how is it a paradise? Our mythical "parents" had no knowledge of these things, just like a child.

 

[Learner]

Not analogous, though. Humans today ARE capable of discriminating between good and bad.
Adam and Woman were expressly described as being unable to make that distinction. It'd be more like your car choosing to start on the first day of your new job, knowing how important that first impression is.

Would they have just been happy regardless (no thought of good or bad) to do as God said anyway , IF the serpent hadn't masterfully enticed them in the first place? Like a stranger trying to entice innocent children with sweets when they would have otherwise gone straight to grandma's? Children in their pure innocence say hello to everyone when they're in that "jolly, loving and greeting" mood and not forgetting even happy to hug complete strangers , no thought of good or bad stranger.

Sexual maturity aside, what transforms a child into an adult is knowledge and experience. So were these mythical parents children when they met the serpent? It's a fair question because these mythical parents had supposedly not tasted knowledge, sex or death. This is very childlike, children have no problem with nudity and children are very curious, which without adult supervision puts them in great danger.

These ancestral parents sound more like children living a child's life and progressing into adulthood.

And has Lion talked himself into a corner? Is not this Garden free of cares, danger, fear, disease, death, etc? If it is not, how is it a paradise? Our mythical "parents" had no knowledge of these things, just like a child.

Apart from my previous analogy attempt for your above quote. How long had it been since they were created before meeting the serpent? Doesn't seem long enough by reading Genesis - God was still giving them HIS ideas of future plans , meaning they were still learning and were to learn more at Eden School.

 

[Learner]

I know a Christian who says babies and foetuses go to hell based on Psalm 51:5:
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Not sure what to say Ex of your friend but its interesting I have sort of heard this before. I'd be curious to know how many follow this particular doctrine.

 

[Lion IRC]

satan or God could have answered that question had Adam or Eve asked. Maybe they were scared to ask. Maybe they could tell by the sombre tone of voice that the word death meant something terrible. Maybe some creatures had already been observed dying. Scripture is opaque.

I think humans have an intuitive understanding of existential matters and the categories;
"to be" or "not to be".

So your argument is that in this paradise called Eden there existed fear, terror and death, even before they ate the forbidden fruit?

No - where did I "argue" that?
I said maybe.

Self-evidently Adam and Eve were aware of the notion of death because God Himself used that word when warning them that actions have consequences.

So how do you think that's a gotcha or that I've painted myself into a corner?
I never demur from what the bible says. And the bible says Adam and Eve were aware of a thing called death.

There's no theological inconsistency to see here. Move along.
...unless you think "paradise" (heaven) entails ignorance of hell.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Not analogous, though. Humans today ARE capable of discriminating between good and bad.
Adam and Woman were expressly described as being unable to make that distinction. It'd be more like your car choosing to start on the first day of your new job, knowing how important that first impression is.

Would they have just been happy regardless (no thought of good or bad) to do as God said anyway , IF the serpent hadn't masterfully enticed them in the first place? Like a stranger trying to entice innocent children with sweets when they would have otherwise gone straight to grandma's? Children in their pure innocence say hello to everyone when they're in that "jolly, loving and greeting" mood and not forgetting even happy to hug complete strangers , no thought of good or bad stranger.
.

And yet, Adam and Eve were even more innocent than one of those children, and God punished them for disobeying him. What kind of a monster holds complete innocents responsible for being preyed upon?

 

[Keith&Co.]

I know a Christian who says babies and foetuses go to hell based on Psalm 51:5:
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Not sure what to say Ex of your friend but its interesting I have sort of heard this before. I'd be curious to know how many follow this particular doctrine.

Anyone who's searched the Bible for any reference to an age of accountability, probably.

Some Catholic philosophers invented Limbo exactly because they knew some infants died before they were baptized and their entrance to Heaven would be blocked by God's policies.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

satan or God could have answered that question had Adam or Eve asked. Maybe they were scared to ask. Maybe they could tell by the sombre tone of voice that the word death meant something terrible. Maybe some creatures had already been observed dying. Scripture is opaque.

I think humans have an intuitive understanding of existential matters and the categories;
"to be" or "not to be".

So your argument is that in this paradise called Eden there existed fear, terror and death, even before they ate the forbidden fruit?

No - where did I "argue" that?
I said maybe.

If they were aware of death, were afraid, and knew terror, then they certainly weren't in anyplace different than you and I live in everyday, except that they were naked.