Is Satan the Christian God of Knowledge?

[DBT]

Jewish View

''He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God.

There isn’t a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man’s accuser in God’s court.''

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

.....lands in gods magic garden, shares the gift of knowledge with our mythical parents,...

It seems that the author of Genesis is saying that there was a talking snake - it talked not because it was possessed, but because "the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made".
Also the serpent is punished: "Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life".

Revelation says the "ancient serpent" is Satan but that doesn't prove that that is what the author of Genesis had in mind.

Also 1 Timothy 2 talks about the woman being deceived but doesn't say by who - if it was Satan I thought the writer would mention that there because 1 Timothy 1:20 and 5:15 mention Satan.

Much of the Bible is borrowed material. Snakes have a prominent place in many cultures, perhaps owing to their deadliness, perhaps also to the fact they are never domesticated. It would not be unusual to associate evil with snakes, hence a Satan with a serpent. Also, remember translation is always a lie.

I see Satan as an ultimately heroic figure. He fights against the tyrant God knowing full well that he can not win. He convinces the humans to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and become a moral agent, instead of an obedient amoral slave to their creator. He symbolizes truth, freedom, agency, and the struggle against tyranny. He may be the greatest hero in all of fiction. The only bad thing about him is that the Christians declare him the bad guy.

Yes, I'm literally playing devil's advocate. And I believe I'm right.

Satan seems to be the axiomatic bad guy, but his behavior is anything but bad in the literature unless one considers knowledge and information to be wrong. I've met a few folks who are quick to state that "we were never meant to know" this or that, so I think Satan has been shoehorned into this role.

In the Garden Story Satan literally frees us from bondage with the gift of knowledge. It should be obvious in this story that the garden comes with the gift of knowledge and that it's how we use that knowledge that is important. The garden itself can be good or evil, something Satan helps us learn.

 

[Learner]

Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Now the "serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field" which the Lord God had made.

There is an interesting perspective slowly appearing (or bible revealing itself , if you will), by collective scrutiny and study. Satan and ha-satan would be adequate names for Lucifer e.g. Gods opponent , but ... IS "Lucifer" the name / one and the same serpent in Eden?

The suggestion also includes (by various verses in the bible including NT) The "tree of knowledge" and "the tree of life" which would be a quite a mind blowing shocker to the Christian world IF... these were actual entities and not literally trees. Which would clarify quite a few things imo. Just as the "god of knowledge" theme goes, funny enough .

As for the "tree of life" which is also pondered on in the same thought to biblical understanding as to whether this is Jesus or Michael. For example (although speculative) if Jesus was "there at the beginning" after all as its said in the biblical text.

Definately worth vigorous continous study no doubt imo (perhaps even for non-believers - new adventures in the greatest story ever told )

A Prometheus maybe

Satan is just Prometheus.
Some reason to explain why we're different from the other animals around us, and how we can have a loving god but we're not currently living in paradise.

So, not GOD of knowledge, but spiller of secrets.
Loose lips that sank the ship.
Or in the modern parlance: Leakers!

( As interesting as it is ...I won't say personaly I am sure yet, even if it sounds good as believers go...as for the faith itself ,I'm already convinced)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Adam and Eve were naked beasts like other beasts until they acquired knowledge, knowledge they learned about from the serpent. And the serpent was there before our supposed "fall" so there's an obvious contradiction that's not so difficult to resolve if the serpent simply represents knowledge. The "tree" is just symbolic, a literary device.

 

[WAB]

Jewish View

''He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God.

There isn’t a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man’s accuser in God’s court.''

Quoted on that page also, there's this nugget, which for some reason Christians cannot or will not get into their noggins:

I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

- Isaiah 45:7

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Now the "serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field" which the Lord God had made.

There is an interesting perspective slowly appearing (or bible revealing itself , if you will), by collective scrutiny and study. Satan and ha-satan would be adequate names for Lucifer e.g. Gods opponent , but ... IS "Lucifer" the name / one and the same serpent in Eden?

The suggestion also includes (by various verses in the bible including NT) The "tree of knowledge" and "the tree of life" which would be a quite a mind blowing shocker to the Christian world IF... these were actual entities and not literally trees. Which would clarify quite a few things imo. Just as the "god of knowledge" theme goes, funny enough .

As for the "tree of life" which is also pondered on in the same thought to biblical understanding as to whether this is Jesus or Michael. For example (although speculative) if Jesus was "there at the beginning" after all as its said in the biblical text.

Definately worth vigorous continous study no doubt imo (perhaps even for non-believers - new adventures in the greatest story ever told )

A Prometheus maybe

Satan is just Prometheus.
Some reason to explain why we're different from the other animals around us, and how we can have a loving god but we're not currently living in paradise.

So, not GOD of knowledge, but spiller of secrets.
Loose lips that sank the ship.
Or in the modern parlance: Leakers!

( As interesting as it is ...I won't say personaly I am sure yet, even if it sounds good as believers go...as for the faith itself ,I'm already convinced)

Quite. If the tree is a Jesus type figure, or something good, punishment for our ancestral parents is a problem that needs resolved. No literalist will touch that one. If the serpent is a servant, why the fall from grace? If the serpent is knowledge it makes sense that our mythical parents would outgrow and leave behind their perfect little childhood garden.

 

[Learner]

Adam and Eve were naked beasts like other beasts until they acquired knowledge, knowledge they learned about from the serpent. And the serpent was there before our supposed "fall" so there's an obvious contradiction that's not so difficult to resolve if the serpent simply represents knowledge. The "tree" is just symbolic, a literary device.

Just symbolic (trees) ..I agree with. Naked is not really a defined character for beast unless its obviously discriptive for not wearing clothes.

Naked as babies or Adam and Eve were innocent (and naked) as babies depends on the context in use,I suppose - in what you want to say. I would assume they would be taught in good time in Eden (if it wasn't for the fall)

 

[Learner]

Quite. If the tree is a Jesus type figure, or something good, punishment for our ancestral parents is a problem that needs resolved. No literalist will touch that one. If the serpent is a servant, why the fall from grace? If the serpent is knowledge it makes sense that our mythical parents would outgrow and leave behind their perfect little childhood garden.

The "sins of the flesh" as I understand is the first of the "original sins" by Eve (by the same thought and study above). Tasting the forbidden fruit i.e. from the "tree of knowledge". Then Adam partook in the fruit from Eve.

There are two variants so far as I gather (better explained by others) but one that has to do with Cain. (The suggestion is : He was not Adams son! (I know , sure, it does sound like the big twist in a movie or I watch too many , you may think).

John 8:44-45 King James Version (KJV)

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

It seems we are ALL nephilim-ic in the flesh today (purity gone)! Born genetically flawed so to speak. Rather than God wiping the lot of us out and starting again "without us" and after failing the previous covenants. We have Jesus to act on our behalf but be BORN AGAIN (just as Ray Comfort says). We are still God's children in spirit but of the flesh: we are children of ... (you get the idea)... spoilt goods but God STILL loves us!(just as the gospel teaches) ... Which reminds me "It IS appointed for man to die ONCE " ( the flesh).

 

[Learner]

Quoted on that page also, there's this nugget, which for some reason Christians cannot or will not get into their noggins:

I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

- Isaiah 45:7

Context depends with pov: I (God) form light and create darkeness and... to make peace and create evil , also has seemingly the "opposite context" ( instead of the word evil )the word : "war" (Light & darkness and peace & war ). But I suppose : evils derived from war(s) could be mean't and mean differently to an individual.

 

[DBT]

The Serpent in Eden is described as the most 'subtle' or cunning of beasts in the garden, a beast that was punished for its part in the drama by losing its limbs, forced to crawl upon the Earth, etc. This does not describe a Supernatural Entity. It is assumed to represent Satan by Christian writers, but the narrative does not support that assumption.

How the Serpent Became Satan
''Introduced as “the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that YHWH God had made,” the serpent in the Garden of Eden is portrayed as just that: a serpent. Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2–3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented. Explaining the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Satan would have been as foreign a concept to the ancient authors of the text as referring to Ezekiel’s vision as a UFO (but Google “Ezekiel’s vision” now, and you’ll see that plenty of people today have made that connection!). In fact, while the word satan appears elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, it is never a proper name; since there is no devil in ancient Israel’s worldview, there can’t yet have been a proper name for such a creature. ''

 

[excreationist]

....It is assumed to represent Satan by Christian writers, but the narrative does not support that assumption....

Exactly. I think in the Bible it is only Revelation that makes this connection. (well also the curse for the snake is seen to have some connection with Jesus)

Here Answers in Genesis is saying the serpent is Satan:
https://answersingenesis.org/angels-and-demons/satan/who-was-the-serpent/

 

[Politesse]

The Bible's relationship with snakes is complicated. Consider this interesting episode in the Book of Numbers, in which the image of a serpent takes on the symbolic weight of divine redemption:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible#Serpent_of_bronze

In Jn 3:14, two verses before the famous one you see at football games, Jesus compares himself to this same serpent.

Beneath the superficial, there some very interesting layers of uncommon meaning nestled into the pages of Scripture.

 

[excreationist]

...In Jn 3:14, two verses before the famous one you see at football games, Jesus compares himself to this same serpent.....

Cool!

 

[Learner]

The Serpent in Eden is described as the most 'subtle' or cunning of beasts in the garden, a beast that was punished for its part in the drama by losing its limbs, forced to crawl upon the Earth, etc. This does not describe a Supernatural Entity. It is assumed to represent Satan by Christian writers, but the narrative does not support that assumption.

How the Serpent Became Satan
''Introduced as “the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that YHWH God had made,” the serpent in the Garden of Eden is portrayed as just that: a serpent. Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2–3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented. Explaining the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Satan would have been as foreign a concept to the ancient authors of the text as referring to Ezekiel’s vision as a UFO (but Google “Ezekiel’s vision” now, and you’ll see that plenty of people today have made that connection!). In fact, while the word satan appears elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, it is never a proper name; since there is no devil in ancient Israel’s worldview, there can’t yet have been a proper name for such a creature. ''

I am in some agreement with you , "the narative doesn't fit ..etc.." The concept of devil has always been known but not the actual word devil. I would put it to the language and newer names of Jesus's time i.e. speaking Aramaic or names in Greek & latin for example , just as there was no mention of the name Pharisees , or there being a place named Judah.

 

[Learner]

Here Answers in Genesis is saying the serpent is Satan:
https://answersingenesis.org/angels-and-demons/satan/who-was-the-serpent/

Ill have a read after breakfast .

 

[DBT]

The Serpent in Eden is described as the most 'subtle' or cunning of beasts in the garden, a beast that was punished for its part in the drama by losing its limbs, forced to crawl upon the Earth, etc. This does not describe a Supernatural Entity. It is assumed to represent Satan by Christian writers, but the narrative does not support that assumption.

How the Serpent Became Satan
''Introduced as “the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that YHWH God had made,” the serpent in the Garden of Eden is portrayed as just that: a serpent. Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2–3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented. Explaining the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Satan would have been as foreign a concept to the ancient authors of the text as referring to Ezekiel’s vision as a UFO (but Google “Ezekiel’s vision” now, and you’ll see that plenty of people today have made that connection!). In fact, while the word satan appears elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, it is never a proper name; since there is no devil in ancient Israel’s worldview, there can’t yet have been a proper name for such a creature. ''

I am in some agreement with you , "the narative doesn't fit ..etc.." The concept of devil has always been known but not the actual word devil. I would put it to the language and newer names of Jesus's time i.e. speaking Aramaic or names in Greek & latin for example , just as there was no mention of the name Pharisees , or there being a place named Judah.

It has nothing to do with me. That is just the situation with Judaism. The description of the Serpent is not that of a Supernatural, rebellious Angel, but a clever/cunning beast in the garden.

The concept of evil spirits was probably around for a long time, Book of Enoch, etc, but the notion of Satan as depicted in the NT is different.

 

[Learner]

Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post

Here Answers in Genesis is saying the serpent is Satan:
https://answersingenesis.org/angels-...s-the-serpent/

It has nothing to do with me. That is just the situation with Judaism. The description of the Serpent is not that of a Supernatural, rebellious Angel, but a clever/cunning beast in the garden.

The concept of evil spirits was probably around for a long time, Book of Enoch, etc, but the notion of Satan as depicted in the NT is different.

Some Christians have been seeing the underlined in the same way . There have been discussions on other threads in the past regarding the meaning of Ha-satan or that satan being merely a derivative i.e. adversary _ atheists were insisting on it. But yes the serpent in this contex would therefore be satan.

In fact, while the word satan appears elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, it is never a proper name;

As you say here ...it is not quite a name it seems for "only" one particular identified entity, when its used everywhere. I got from another Christian who is far ahead than me in this (coincidently I come across or devine guidance , if you will) who pointed out (8 years ago on a forum) an important reference in the the Book of Enoch ... overlooked (scripture will reveal itself - as it is written):

1 Enoch

40:7
And I heard the fourth voice fending off the satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth.


This would also put into perspective some verses that seem controversial, for example :

Mark 8:33


33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, a“Get behind me, Satan! For you bare not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Being in opposition to ... an adversary to ...

 

[Learner]

The Bible's relationship with snakes is complicated. Consider this interesting episode in the Book of Numbers, in which the image of a serpent takes on the symbolic weight of divine redemption:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible#Serpent_of_bronze

In Jn 3:14, two verses before the famous one you see at football games, Jesus compares himself to this same serpent.

The bibles relationship with snakes does seem complicated as you mentioned and obviously confusing. Serpents do have this portrayal of cleverness & cunning, being quite intellectual & smarter / "wiser" than most creatures as characteristics of its nature. More so in terms of the bible although today, snakes are used as names for people being described as slippery and deceptive characters. At the moment in all honesty, I don't yet know what to make of the verse JN 3:4 which is an interesting one (some Christian in the wide-world collective somewhere will have some idea) but I am intrigued and find interesting as you find it in your quote below:

Beneath the superficial, there some very interesting layers of uncommon meaning nestled into the pages of Scripture.

Another Jesus and serpent verse.

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore "wise" as serpents, and harmless as doves.

EDit: Serpents don't represent evil in this verse whereas wolves do in context.

 

[Politesse]

Another Jesus and serpent verse.

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore "wise" as serpents, and harmless as doves.

EDit: Serpents don't represent evil in this verse whereas wolves do in context.

Evil, or just hunger? I've always thought this was more a warning that people's desire for what you have can manifest as a greed that takes everything you have away from you. Everyone is thirsty; if they think you have what they need, they'll try to take by force what you would have freely given them, and ironically cut off the source in doing so. Jesus, I think, had a great deal of compassion for humanity and its potential, but was a realist in expecting what a person might actually do. ie, smart like a Slytherin, gentle like a Hufflepuff.

 

[Learner]

Evil, or just hunger? I've always thought this was more a warning that people's desire for what you have can manifest as a greed that takes everything you have away from you. Everyone is thirsty; if they think you have what they need, they'll try to take by force what you would have freely given them, and ironically cut off the source in doing so.

I could go along with this. Evil may not be quite the word . But yes I would take the verse to be warnings to the "dangers" (of various kinds) with regards to the sheep and wolves comparison, which mirrors in context the wolves among the sheep verse.

Matthew 7:15 King James Version
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Jesus, I think, had a great deal of compassion for humanity and its potential, but was a realist in expecting what a person might actually do. ie, smart like a Slytherin, gentle like a Hufflepuff.

My point of view differs of course to your POV which is fair enough. I would take to the theology that Jesus would expect people to have the potential to be wise in the world and be compassionately gentle and charitable.