Is the Bible a magic book?

[steve_bank]

A cartoon animation can be a metaphor for god creating everything.

God creates a cartoon where us humans can chose one way or another and then punishes humans who do not choose the way god god wants.

All for god's pleasure. He has to have some way to relieve the boredom of eternal existence and being all powerful with nothing to do.

What god really needs is a girlfriend. Or boyfriend depending on his sexual orientation.

 

[Lion IRC]

We are told in the bible that God creates every kind of evil.

Yes, in an ontological way.

If God forms a thing that now exists, He has made an ontological opposite to existence called 'non' existence.

By forming light, He creates an ontological opposite called darkness - the absence of light.

Obedience to God is good. The ontological opposite - disobedience- is evil. By telling us what is good He is creating an opposite category - sin.

I must have nodded off while reading... I know which verse says the bit about creating good and evuil, but which verse explains it away with a vague ontological apologetic?

WUT?
I'm not explaining it away.
I'm explaining why there's nothing problematic at all about what DBT wrote.

It doesn't need to be explained "away".

 

[DBT]

We are told in the bible that God creates every kind of evil.

Yes, in an ontological way.

If God forms a thing that now exists, He has made an ontological opposite to existence called 'non' existence.

By forming light, He creates an ontological opposite called darkness - the absence of light.

Obedience to God is good. The ontological opposite - disobedience- is evil. By telling us what is good He is creating an opposite category - sin.

I must have nodded off while reading... I know which verse says the bit about creating good and evuil, but which verse explains it away with a vague ontological apologetic?

WUT?
I'm not explaining it away.
I'm explaining why there's nothing problematic at all about what DBT wrote.

It doesn't need to be explained "away".

Did you explain why there is nothing problematic about God delibetately creating evil? To me, it looked like a poor rationale.

 

[Learner]

You said money is the root of evil.

The love of money.

And that some translations have..."the root of all kinds of evil".
And "a root" instead of "the root".
And that the covetous, selfish, hedonistic love of money might be a 'gateway drug' leading to unbridled surrender to other temptations such as lust, intolerance, hatred, jealousy etc.

But you wrote "the root of all evil," not "a" or "some."

Now your apologetics is claiming that all translations don't have the same meaning.

Narrowing down specifically on the "not a" or "some" as an argument relying on a 'technicality' (as Bailiffs or lawyers sometimes do in court) is trivially quite harmless to Lions argument and misleading.

All translations contextually mean the same thing! Regardless of which version you read. The 'love of money' or 'money leads to all evil' etc.i s not in confliction with each other and should quite easily be understood conceptually by most people, if not all. They all have the same exact warning message: 'Money plus 'greed' equals dangerous!

Your apologetic argument is dumb. We are looking at various different things that are being claimed a text means. In such cases you can almost always summarize at a high level but that in no way absolves incorrect translations, misinterpretations, or non-existent versions claimed to exist.

I was alluding to the habit of 'technical' categorizations of words or wording used as (preferred) interpretations to debate with (atheists do this). For example your argument seemed purposely aimed at catching "Lion out" by emphasising and establishing the grounds to be based on the everyday understanding of the of the word ALL, through common convention. I.e. the word All means 'Everything... not some, not parts, but entirely everything.

The illustration you place here in context, now allows you to argue against the verse that Lion brought up (Money is the route to all evil). You were enabled to show your case examples with 'other causes of evil' other than money, based on the context grounds that you're going with i.e. ALL means 'evey single evil deed is done through money".

Suppose we have Levutoronominus 9:101. If one translator says the verse is "thou shalt not marry your step brother on tuesday" and another translator says it's "thou shalt not marry your step sister on wednesdays" you can't come along, sweep it under the rug, and say, "yeah well, the point is don't marry step siblings."

I get what you mean here. Whether the day is Tuesday or Wednesday or some other meaning to these verses are being analyzed. Verses studied on a case by case basis won't necessarily have the same conclusions as the money + evil mentioned.

In regard also to the point you glossed over...where's the translation that says "a root?"

Why am I getting silence on this?

If I understand this correctly. The love of money is the root to all evil verse with slight variants have the word root written in many translations.

 

[LoAmmo]

Did you explain

[snip]

No.

Because they NEVER “explain,” in any sense that does justice to that word, ANYTHING about the made-up bullshit that serves as the core tenets of their chosen religion.
All you ever get, or ever will get, is word-salad mumbo jumbo. You may as well be asking a golden retriever to explain why a spaceship can’t exceed the speed of light.

 

[Learner]

We are told in the bible that God creates every kind of evil.

Yes, in an ontological way.

If God forms a thing that now exists, He has made an ontological opposite to existence called 'non' existence.

By forming light, He creates an ontological opposite called darkness - the absence of light.

Obedience to God is good. The ontological opposite - disobedience- is evil. By telling us what is good He is creating an opposite category - sin.

I must have nodded off while reading... I know which verse says the bit about creating good and evuil, but which verse explains it away with a vague ontological apologetic?

WUT?
I'm not explaining it away.
I'm explaining why there's nothing problematic at all about what DBT wrote.

It doesn't need to be explained "away".

Did you explain why there is nothing problematic about God delibetately creating evil? To me, it looked like a poor rationale.

Technically speaking? Can you name other creatures on earth other than human that do evil things? I will be intrigued with your answer.

Reading from your post, it suggests evil is a separate creation, a material object creation on its own.But then there needs to be a ground to argue the old simplistic "problem of evil' argument,which imo is redundant or will be.

 

[DBT]

We are told in the bible that God creates every kind of evil.

Yes, in an ontological way.

If God forms a thing that now exists, He has made an ontological opposite to existence called 'non' existence.

By forming light, He creates an ontological opposite called darkness - the absence of light.

Obedience to God is good. The ontological opposite - disobedience- is evil. By telling us what is good He is creating an opposite category - sin.

I must have nodded off while reading... I know which verse says the bit about creating good and evuil, but which verse explains it away with a vague ontological apologetic?

WUT?
I'm not explaining it away.
I'm explaining why there's nothing problematic at all about what DBT wrote.

It doesn't need to be explained "away".

Did you explain why there is nothing problematic about God delibetately creating evil? To me, it looked like a poor rationale.

Technically speaking? Can you name other creatures on earth other than human that do evil things? I will be intrigued with your answer.

Reading from your post, it suggests evil is a separate creation, a material object creation on its own.But then there needs to be a ground to argue the old simplistic "problem of evil' argument,which imo is redundant or will be.

I pointed out what is written in the bible about evil, that it's said that God creates evil. Furthermore, that God creates the 'wicked for the day of Evil.'

 

[southernhybrid]

Every time I try to read this thread, I keep hearing the O'Jays singing in the background, so fuck what the Bible says about money, I'll take the O'Jays version any day, so let's go....

Money, money, money, money, money [6x]
Some people got to have it
Some people really need it
Listen to me y'all, do things
Do things, do bad things with it
You wanna do things, do things
Do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money
Dollar bills, yall

For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know
Who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money

For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper
It carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green

Almighty dollar

I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds

Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Some people really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Lay down, lay down, a woman will lay down
For the love of money
All for the love of money
Don't let, don't let, don't let money rule you
For the love of money
Money can change people sometimes
Don't let, don't let, don't let money fool you
Money can fool people sometimes
People, don't let money, don't let money change you
It will keep on changing, changing up your mind

Okay, now back to the discussion about the root of all evil or whatever.....

I really don't think the early mythological people in the Bible had paper money. That's a pretty silly assumption, but sure, money can cause all kinds of bad things, or it can be used to help people in need. Just ask the O'Jays.

 

[Learner]

We are told in the bible that God creates every kind of evil.

Yes, in an ontological way.

If God forms a thing that now exists, He has made an ontological opposite to existence called 'non' existence.

By forming light, He creates an ontological opposite called darkness - the absence of light.

Obedience to God is good. The ontological opposite - disobedience- is evil. By telling us what is good He is creating an opposite category - sin.

I must have nodded off while reading... I know which verse says the bit about creating good and evuil, but which verse explains it away with a vague ontological apologetic?

WUT?
I'm not explaining it away.
I'm explaining why there's nothing problematic at all about what DBT wrote.

It doesn't need to be explained "away".

Did you explain why there is nothing problematic about God delibetately creating evil? To me, it looked like a poor rationale.

Technically speaking? Can you name other creatures on earth other than human that do evil things? I will be intrigued with your answer.

Reading from your post, it suggests evil is a separate creation, a material object creation on its own.But then there needs to be a ground to argue the old simplistic "problem of evil' argument,which imo is redundant or will be.

I pointed out what is written in the bible about evil, that it's said that God creates evil. Furthermore, that God creates the 'wicked for the day of Evil.'

What is written? Yes of course, but unfortunately, the context of the written verses always seems to escape you DBT (although I know you're an intelligent fellow). If there are verses that say 'God is a loving and kind God etc.' then would you also bring this to attention in a discussion?

More likely you'd say there was a contradiction, highlighting verses as you've mentioned in the quoted above. By that manner of course, I could say in the same way, when an atheist makes the statement that "God of the bible is evil etc." I could likewise say to that notion, that it's also a contradiction by highlighting the verses that mentions "God as a loving God, etc". ,(Not that anyone's getting anywhere here )

 

[Elixir]

when an atheist makes the statement that "God of the bible is evil etc." I could likewise say to that notion, it is also a contradiction by highlighting the verses that mentions "God as a loving God etc".

If an atheist says "God of the bible is evil" that's a contradiction right there.
How can something that doesn't exist be evil? Stupid atheists!

 

[Learner]

Every time I try to read this thread, I keep hearing the O'Jays singing in the background, so fuck what the Bible says about money, I'll take the O'Jays version any day, so let's go....

Money, money, money, money, money [6x]
Some people got to have it
Some people really need it
Listen to me y'all, do things
Do things, do bad things with it
You wanna do things, do things
Do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money
Dollar bills, yall

For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know
Who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money

For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper
It carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green

Almighty dollar

I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds

Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Some people really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Lay down, lay down, a woman will lay down
For the love of money
All for the love of money
Don't let, don't let, don't let money rule you
For the love of money
Money can change people sometimes
Don't let, don't let, don't let money fool you
Money can fool people sometimes
People, don't let money, don't let money change you
It will keep on changing, changing up your mind

Okay, now back to the discussion about the root of all evil or whatever.....

I really don't think the early mythological people in the Bible had paper money. That's a pretty silly assumption, but sure, money can cause all kinds of bad things, or it can be used to help people in need. Just ask the O'Jays.

Wealth & power in ancient times didn't come in the form of paper money - that would indeed also be silly for someone to even suggest that's was what it was. Despite the non-existence of the paperless quantity, there were existing Kings of wealth and wealthy people of power.

 

[southernhybrid]

Every time I try to read this thread, I keep hearing the O'Jays singing in the background, so fuck what the Bible says about money, I'll take the O'Jays version any day, so let's go....

Money, money, money, money, money [6x]
Some people got to have it
Some people really need it
Listen to me y'all, do things
Do things, do bad things with it
You wanna do things, do things
Do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money
Dollar bills, yall

For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know
Who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money

For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper
It carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green

Almighty dollar

I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds

Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Some people really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Lay down, lay down, a woman will lay down
For the love of money
All for the love of money
Don't let, don't let, don't let money rule you
For the love of money
Money can change people sometimes
Don't let, don't let, don't let money fool you
Money can fool people sometimes
People, don't let money, don't let money change you
It will keep on changing, changing up your mind

Okay, now back to the discussion about the root of all evil or whatever.....

I really don't think the early mythological people in the Bible had paper money. That's a pretty silly assumption, but sure, money can cause all kinds of bad things, or it can be used to help people in need. Just ask the O'Jays.

Wealth & power in ancient times didn't come in the form of paper money - that would indeed also be silly for someone to even suggest that's was what it was. Despite the non-existence of the paperless quantity, there were existing Kings of wealth and wealthy people of power.

Sure, but Lion said, "where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve didn't have money?" Money is different from having wealth.

Do you guys honestly take the Bible to be literally true? I was told that when I was a child and it gave me a lot of cognitive dissonance. Of course, being a child, fairy tales sometimes seemed real.

The Bible is a book of myths, that has little or no historical basis. For the life of me, I can't understand how anyone can take it literally. It may have some good stories in it, a few morality lessons here and there, but it's not based on reality.

So, I'm asking Lion and Learner. Do you take the stories in the Bible to be true or are they myths that symbolize something? And, if so, how do you know what the various myths symbolize. For example, what did the story of the Great Flood mean? What was the purpose of the Battle of Jericho? What was the meaning of a big fish swallowing a man and then throwing him up intact three days later?

 

[Lion IRC]

Did you explain why there is nothing problematic about God deliberately creating evil? To me, it looked like a poor rationale.

I dont remember saying God deliberately created evil.

I talked about the creation of an ontological thing called evil which exists definitionally by virtue of it being the opposite of good - God's will.

In that sense, God created evil. But this is trivially true in the same way as its trivially true that 'nothing' is the opposite of something. Darkness is the opposite of light. Cold is the opposite of hot.

It's also trivially true that someone could just call a thing that God created 'evil'.
God says...yes, I created that. Now what?

 

[Lion IRC]

Lion said, "where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve didn't have money?

Yes, and I never got an answer.

...not even from the person who challenges me to provide citations.

 

[southernhybrid]

Lion said, "where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve didn't have money?

Yes, and I never got an answer.

...not even from the person who challenges me to provide citations.

Adam and Eve are a silly myth, but since you seem to believe they were real, where does it say that they did have money. You made the claim that they had money, so playing along with you, where did the Bible say they had money? Please tell me that you're not one of those people who believe that the earth or humanity is only about 6000 years old.

 

[Lion IRC]

You made the claim that they had money,

Nope. You haven't been paying attention.
I challenged the person who asserted the opposite to cite a biblical reference for the claim that;

Adam, Eve, and children didn't have money

 

[steve_bank]

Money as in paper,coin, or digital currency are forms of barter.

In the ancient world one might trade wine for grain. Wine and grain could be traded for other things. Currency makes the barer easier and adds a quantifiable value to goods and services. I do a job and get a script, and exchange the script for goods.

I think the Romans had a banking system and a form of checks.

Greed is today the same as it is has always been.

 

[DBT]

Did you explain why there is nothing problematic about God deliberately creating evil? To me, it looked like a poor rationale.

I dont remember saying God deliberately created evil.

I talked about the creation of an ontological thing called evil which exists definitionally by virtue of it being the opposite of good - God's will.

In that sense, God created evil. But this is trivially true in the same way as its trivially true that 'nothing' is the opposite of something. Darkness is the opposite of light. Cold is the opposite of hot.

It's also trivially true that someone could just call a thing that God created 'evil'.
God says...yes, I created that. Now what?

So God creates evil but doesn't do it deliberately? Is it unintended evil?

That's not what is written.

 

[DBT]

We are told in the bible that God creates every kind of evil.

Yes, in an ontological way.

If God forms a thing that now exists, He has made an ontological opposite to existence called 'non' existence.

By forming light, He creates an ontological opposite called darkness - the absence of light.

Obedience to God is good. The ontological opposite - disobedience- is evil. By telling us what is good He is creating an opposite category - sin.

I must have nodded off while reading... I know which verse says the bit about creating good and evuil, but which verse explains it away with a vague ontological apologetic?

WUT?
I'm not explaining it away.
I'm explaining why there's nothing problematic at all about what DBT wrote.

It doesn't need to be explained "away".

Did you explain why there is nothing problematic about God delibetately creating evil? To me, it looked like a poor rationale.

Technically speaking? Can you name other creatures on earth other than human that do evil things? I will be intrigued with your answer.

Reading from your post, it suggests evil is a separate creation, a material object creation on its own.But then there needs to be a ground to argue the old simplistic "problem of evil' argument,which imo is redundant or will be.

I pointed out what is written in the bible about evil, that it's said that God creates evil. Furthermore, that God creates the 'wicked for the day of Evil.'

What is written? Yes of course, but unfortunately, the context of the written verses always seems to escape you DBT (although I know you're an intelligent fellow). If there are verses that say 'God is a loving and kind God etc.' then would you also bring this to attention in a discussion?

More likely you'd say there was a contradiction, highlighting verses as you've mentioned in the quoted above. By that manner of course, I could say in the same way, when an atheist makes the statement that "God of the bible is evil etc." I could likewise say to that notion, that it's also a contradiction by highlighting the verses that mentions "God as a loving God, etc". ,(Not that anyone's getting anywhere here )

Not the context excuse again. Context doesn't transform what is written and what is meant into something more palatable for the believer.

 

[Lion IRC]

So God creates evil but doesn't do it deliberately? Is it unintended evil?

If His deliberate act of creating (forming) a thing called 'good' has the ontological result of there now being a thing we conceive of as an opposite of good then, yes, it's deliberate - in the sense that He knows how ontology works and what it entails.

That's not what is written

LOL
Best hermeneutics argument ever!