Is the Bible a magic book?

[steve_bank]

Sour grapes? I never had that affliction. Who your parents are can make it easier. That is reality. I grew up single parent father mostly in public housing. He never graduated high school.

The last full time job I had was for a guy who started an inflight entertainment electronics business for the upscale. Customized audio, cabin controls, and video for jets.

He manged to get a contract working out of his garage and mortgaged his house to get it going.

He lived at the company for the first two years.

For every Bill Gates I'll give you counter examples.

 

[DBT]

Strange things happen. I know a guy who could barely get himself dressed in the morning, bumbling along with daily tasks, yet somehow managed a successful business and became a multi millionaire.

 

[Elixir]

If you are not, then your brilliant idea (as long as it's genuinely and sufficiently brilliant) can still lead to vast wealth and commercial success.

Just not for you, but for the elite (or elite adjacent) person who can afford to buy your idea for peanuts, while you are still too poor to make anything more from it.

IKR?
That’s just another dynamic whereby wealth in our system tends to conglomerate itself around existing wealth.

 

[Learner]

Yes, God is in opposition to evil.

Can you explain this in little words? Was the omnipotent God somehow forced (ontologically??) to create evil?


What is "evil" anyway? Some humans are "evil"; how about serpents?

Hi Swammi, I read your previous post to me, sorry I didn't get back to you I didn't ignore it. I will at some point have to read those parts of scripture in question which you suggested to read. (using the excuse of my phone)

Regarding the serpents in the above. Interestingly...as you ask about the 'evil serpents'. I asked DBT whether or not other animal creatures other than human were evil too. He didn't know the significance of why I asked it - I got a different answer.

The answer to your question: NO..unless...these serpents were 'as clever' as the well known serpent in the garden of Eden, who was uniquely the cleverest of ALL the creatures on Earth.

The reason I asked and was going to get to (but didn't manage to follow up unfortunately) 'whether or not animals were evil' etc . Was to highlight & emphasise that the manifestation of EVIL is 'only' dependent on the willing thought of 'Intelligent thinking entities or beings'!

God didn't create evil in the world (as a separate quantity substance) - He created a free will thinking man.

 

[ideologyhunter]

- He created a free will thinking man.

But I'm sure you're aware of the scriptures that qualify and even negate that statement -- they have been the basis of extensive theological traditions in the church.
John 6:64-5: For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Romans 11:32: For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Romans 9 16-8: So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, " I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
II Cor. 4:4: In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.

Also Exodus 4:21 and 7:3; Isa. 6:10, which is repeated in John 12:40; Isa. 63:17; Ezek. 11:18-20; IITim. 2:25.

 

[Learner]

- He created a free will thinking man.

But I'm sure you're aware of the scriptures that qualify and even negate that statement -- they have been the basis of extensive theological traditions in the church.

Just going on the word sin alone and noting the strong emphasis throughout the bible that warns us of relating consequences - this tells us there is a need to 'choose' wisely.

John 6:64-5: For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Romans 11:32: For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

This illustrates God can decide to grant mercy, despite and after the individual has already thought to do in mind or has carried out in actions even when it's against God

Romans 9 16-8: So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, " I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.t

Again, whom ever he wills after the fact. Mercy implies forgiveness for an opposing action or thought that already took place.

II Cor. 4:4: In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.

Also Exodus 4:21 and 7:3; Isa. 6:10, which is repeated in John 12:40; Isa. 63:17; Ezek. 11:18-20; IITim. 2:25.

The god of this world (note small g) isn't referring to the Almighty.

 

[DBT]

Blame it on Satan?

 

[bilby]

the well known serpent in the garden of Eden, who was uniquely the cleverest of ALL the creatures on Earth

This sounds so much like it comes directly from a fairy tale for pre-school infants. I heard it in my head in the voice of the woman who presented "Listen With Mother" on BBC radio in the 1970s.

Can any mentally healthy adult actually believe that this is somehow a factual statement about a real entity, rather than a phrase lifted directly from a poorly crafted story for very young children?

 

[DBT]

Yes, God is in opposition to evil.

Can you explain this in little words? Was the omnipotent God somehow forced (ontologically??) to create evil?


What is "evil" anyway? Some humans are "evil"; how about serpents?

Hi Swammi, I read your previous post to me, sorry I didn't get back to you I didn't ignore it. I will at some point have to read those parts of scripture in question which you suggested to read. (using the excuse of my phone)

Regarding the serpents in the above. Interestingly...as you ask about the 'evil serpents'. I asked DBT whether or not other animal creatures other than human were evil too. He didn't know the significance of why I asked it - I got a different answer.

The answer to your question: NO..unless...these serpents were 'as clever' as the well known serpent in the garden of Eden, who was uniquely the cleverest of ALL the creatures on Earth.

The reason I asked and was going to get to (but didn't manage to follow up unfortunately) 'whether or not animals were evil' etc . Was to highlight & emphasise that the manifestation of EVIL is 'only' dependent on the willing thought of 'Intelligent thinking entities or beings'!

God didn't create evil in the world (as a separate quantity substance) - He created a free will thinking man.

It's not 'free will' that sets the conditions in a world were animals must eat each other in order to survive. Plus we are specifically told that God creates the 'wicked for the day of evil' - which is hardly something that the wicked, created for their role, happen to 'freely will' as their condition in life.

 

[ideologyhunter]

-

Romans 9 16-8: So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, " I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.t

Again, whom ever he wills after the fact. Mercy implies forgiveness for an opposing action or thought that already took place.

Meh. If he hardens the heart of whomever he wills, then free will is cancelled. The text doesn't say there was a tipping point, at which point God just decided to mess with him. It says he was created to be used. Do Christians hold that there is an "opposing action or thought" that cancels out free will? That after that, God hardens your heart if he wills it? That would seem to make a lot of missionary work unnecessary.

 

[EricH]

the well known serpent in the garden of Eden, who was uniquely the cleverest of ALL the creatures on Earth

This sounds so much like it comes directly from a fairy tale for pre-school infants. I heard it in my head in the voice of the woman who presented "Listen With Mother" on BBC radio in the 1970s.

Can any mentally healthy adult actually believe that this is somehow a factual statement about a real entity, rather than a phrase lifted directly from a poorly crafted story for very young children?

Learner believes the story. And you seem to be suggesting that Learner has the cognitive ability of a very young child.

I never believed these Bible stories even when I was a Christian.

 

[Elixir]

I never believed these Bible stories even when I was a Christian.

I think most don’t. But won’t admit it to each other.
The very idea of hundreds of millions of adults unquestioningly swallowing those ridiculous fables at face value, boggles the mind. I don’t think it’s so.

 

[steve_bank]

Uhhh...Excuse me Lerner..excuse me please !!!!

If god created all things then our conclusion only be god allows or even internationally put evil into HIS creation, right?

Satan exist and thrives outside of gods powers and authority? And of course birth defects, disease, earthquakes, etc.

At best Satan or Lucifer are metaphor for aspects of human nature, which is what mythology is all about. Yahweh being a manifestation or reflection of the ancient Hebrew patriarchy. The male family patriarch being for all practical purposes was 'god' over the family.

When can see it today in ultra orthodox Jewish communities and Muslim states like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I never believed these Bible stories even when I was a Christian.

I think most don’t. But won’t admit it to each other.
The very idea of hundreds of millions of adults unquestioningly swallowing those ridiculous fables at face value, boggles the mind. I don’t think it’s so.

It's funny to think about, innit?? I was reading somewhere -- might've been in a piece on ministers who lose their faith -- about a minister who had one of his congregation ask him about the story in Judges 15 that has the 300 foxes. (Recap for those who don't know this ridiculous tale: to get back at the Philistines, Samson catches 300 foxes -- right -- and ties their tails together by twos -- right -- and inserts torches in the knots. Right, got it. Then he lights the torches and sets the foxes lose in the Philistine wheat fields. I mean, that wouldn't even fly in a Disney live action film.) So the man asked his pastor, "Do you think that could ever happen that way?" and the minister, nearly at a loss for words, came out with, "Perhaps God found a way to make it happen." Which is probably better than saying, "Are you out of your fucking mind? Of course it's a stupid fairy tale. Stop reading the Bible! Want to get a beer?" But what the hell...the foxes are in competition with a 600 year old man making the ark...Jacob's striped sticks in Gen. 30...the talking donkey in Numbers 22...showers of magic sky food in Numbers 11...Jonah...Jesus finding a coin in a fish's mouth...yeah, we have folks in 2024 who accept this stuff and get murderously angry if you point out that it's...can I say it: dumb.

 

[Elixir]

Learner believes the story.

Lots of people believe the story. Lots of people believe bullshit.
You’re a doctor, right, Eric?
My brother is a GP who sold his practice to the hospital system and went to work for them. The transition put him in direct contact with scores of other practitioners for the first time since residency many years ago.
He was totally shocked by the fact that there were doctors who thought Trump was a great self-made businessman with a very big brain. When people want to believe bullshit, some of them are very capable of it.

 

[DBT]

There are people who still believe in young age creation, flat earth and all. I have even worked with one who tried to convert me.

 

[EricH]

Learner believes the story.

Lots of people believe the story. Lots of people believe bullshit.
You’re a doctor, right, Eric?
My brother is a GP who sold his practice to the hospital system and went to work for them. The transition put him in direct contact with scores of other practitioners for the first time since residency many years ago.
He was totally shocked by the fact that there were doctors who thought Trump was a great self-made businessman with a very big brain. When people want to believe bullshit, some of them are very capable of it.

I imagine there are plenty of doctors who believe all kinds of irrational things. I was never interested in talking about god or politics at work so I couldn't give you statistics.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I have a college-educated cousin who believes the earth is about 10,000 years old. How's that for setting up about 100 subjects I won't/can't go into, with her? There's a Grateful Dead lyric that goes, 'You aint gonna learn what you don't wanna know.'

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...
The Bible is a MAGIC book!
...

Let me change the direction of the discussion a moment and go back to magic.

One thing that I think is interesting is some of the last few verses of Revelation contain a curse. KJV Revelation 22:18-19.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Elixir]

...
The Bible is a MAGIC book!
...

Let me change the direction of the discussion a moment and go back to magic.

One thing that I think is interesting is some of the last few verses of Revelation contain a curse. KJV Revelation 22:18-19.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ruh roh!
Queen Jimmy must be rolling in his grave.