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Is the intro for Soylent Green not relevant anymore?

repoman

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This came out when I was an infant, and back then people (from what I gather) were scared shitless about overpopulation. But the population is roughly as high now as they expected it to be back then.



Is social media making us more ignorant or desensitived of overpopulation?
 
starbucks-green-drink.jpg
 
This came out when I was an infant, and back then people (from what I gather) were scared shitless about overpopulation. But the population is roughly as high now as they expected it to be back then.



Is social media making us more ignorant or desensitived of overpopulation?
Social media is what makes 1984 relevant.
 
Overpopulation and mass starvation was the boogey man of the '70's when I was growing up. There was a big bestseller called "The Population Bomb" that had people freaking out. Flash forward forty years, and in many, if not most, Western countries, its under population that's the problem. So, yeah, the overpopulation theme of Soylent Green is a bit hyperbolic.
 
It's still THE problem. The one all the others spring from.
There are too many clever, aggressive, and greedy primates on this planet. One (at least) of the Horsemen will put them in check.
I'm glad I don't have kids, partly because I don't have to worry about them but also because I know I haven't contributed to the problem.
I don't know why people have stopped paying attention to the fact. Cognitive dissonance perhaps? (I know it's a problem, but the world NEEDS my genes? And what's two more kids out of seven or eight billion?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
 
The Population Bomb was a major issue in the late 60s and early 70s, and it was probably justified at that time to be deeply concerned - but there were two vital errors in the calculations of the doom-sayers - They didn't predict the agricultural "Green revolution" of the 1960s and 70s, which made global farm productivity massively greater than they expected, through improvements in both crop varieties and agricultural chemicals; And more importantly, they didn't factor in the effect of widely available, reliable and effective contraception that is controlled by women.

The agricultural advances delayed the problems by a good century or more; and the contraceptive pill eliminated the problem at source. Population increased by 20.2% in the decade from 1960 to 1970; in the decade from 1990 to 2000 it increased by only 12.6%, and the rate of increase is still falling - only Demographic Momentum is still keeping the global population growth rate positive, and population will most likely stabilize at around 10 billion in the 2040s. The world already produces enough food for that many people, and we are not even close to the peak productivity possible from existing farmland. Indeed, as food production has soared in recent decades, the area of land given over to farming has been declining - particularly in the developed world.

Famine was a big deal in the 1950s and 60s; When John Lennon sang "They're starving back in China, so finish what you've got", he wasn't kidding - between 15 and 45 million Chinese people died due to famine in the three year period 1959-61. Even as recently as the 1980s, Bob Geldof was urging us all to "Feed the world", and his focus was the Ethiopian famine, in which 400,000 died between 1983 and 1985. That's perhaps two orders of magnitude fewer deaths than in China twenty years before, but still a lot of dead people (and of course, a lot more who survived in miserable conditions of near-starvation).

So, if overpopulation causes famine, then either the population of China must have fallen since 1961, and that of Ethiopia since 1985; OR those places must have even more severe famines now, than they did then. Well, we know famine is no longer occurring in either place - so we must predict that population has fallen - or at the very least is stable. Let's see:

China - Population 1961 - 660.3 million; Population 2016 - 1,379 million (109% increase)
Ethiopia - Population 1985 - 40.8 million; Population 2016 - 102.4 million (151% increase)

The hypothesis that famine is caused by overpopulation (or just 'population') is clearly and demonstrably false.

Now, can people PLEASE stop using this deeply flawed and demonstrably incorrect claim in their arguments?

Of course they fucking can't.

But it remains true that the overpopulation hypothesis - as described by the likes of Paul Ehrlich in the 1960s and 1970s - is utter bollocks.

Still, if food isn't a constraint, perhaps other resources are? In 1980, Paul Ehrlich, having been by that stage proven wrong in his dire predictions of a decade before, shifted to this argument in an attempt to salvage some credibility for his increasingly dodgy hypotheses. This led to the famous Simon-Ehrlich wager.

Ehrlich and his colleagues picked five metals that they thought would undergo big price increases: chromium, copper, nickel, tin, and tungsten. Then, on paper, they bought $200 worth of each, for a total bet of $1,000, using the prices on September 29, 1980, as an index. They designated September 29, 1990, 10 years hence, as the payoff date. If the inflation-adjusted prices of the various metals rose in the interim, Simon would pay Ehrlich the combined difference. If the prices fell, Ehrlich et al. would pay Simon.

Between 1980 and 1990, the world's population grew by more than 800 million, the largest increase in one decade in all of history. But by September 1990, the price of each of Ehrlich's selected metals had fallen. Chromium, which had sold for $3.90 a pound in 1980, was down to $3.70 in 1990. Tin, which was $8.72 a pound in 1980, was down to $3.88 a decade later.

As a result, in October 1990, Paul Ehrlich mailed Julian Simon a check for $576.07 to settle the wager in Simon's favor.

So, in summary: The fears expressed in the intro to Soylent Green were not entirely unreasonable at that time; But even then, the solutions to the projected problems were becoming established, and four and a half decades later, we can see that those fears were hugely inflated, and that the things that rendered the concerns invalid are still in place and are still outpacing the growth of the underlying 'problem'.

Overpopulation is an outdated concern that no well informed person today should worry about in the slightest. So, as we might expect, a large number of people remain practically hysterical about it. Because whether or not the world has too many people, there is little doubt that it has FAR too few well informed people.

Perhaps the internet will fix that, but I ain't holding my breath.
 
yeah fossil fuels are gonna last forever.

We have to stop using them long before they run out anyway.

But the Uranium and Thorium will last indefinitely. So that's not a problem.

Indeed, with abundant inexpensive power, we can turn Carbon Dioxide back into oil if we want to.

Indefinitely?

Anyway, back to the original topic, as others pointed out, birth rates are starting to go down, especially in developed nations, while agricultural science produced enough advances to stave off mass starvation, so the biggest concern did not come to pass, but we're not out of the woods yet. At least some of climate change can be attributed to our large population, as well as the expected problem with fresh water, and we're still taking up more and more land, thus driving other species into extinction. I dunno if we can anticipate the full consequences of that last one.

So there's still a chance that third world theists will fuck us all into a disaster, and now that we have pronatalist religious fanatics in the devloped world openly encouraging higher birth rates among third world theists, we may yet see some kind of disaster unfold from all of this. :(
 
Overpopulation and mass starvation was the boogey man of the '70's when I was growing up. There was a big bestseller called "The Population Bomb" that had people freaking out. Flash forward forty years, and in many, if not most, Western countries, its under population that's the problem. So, yeah, the overpopulation theme of Soylent Green is a bit hyperbolic.
Under population is an economic problem, in systems that rely on perpetual growth.
The ecological hazards, which were the point of the book, are real and becoming more pronounced every day.
 
So, in summary: The fears expressed in the intro to Soylent Green were not entirely unreasonable at that time; But even then, the solutions to the projected problems were becoming established, and four and a half decades later, we can see that those fears were hugely inflated, and that the things that rendered the concerns invalid are still in place and are still outpacing the growth of the underlying 'problem'.

Overpopulation is an outdated concern that no well informed person today should worry about in the slightest. So, as we might expect, a large number of people remain practically hysterical about it. Because whether or not the world has too many people, there is little doubt that it has FAR too few well informed people.
The Green Revolution was a bubble with disastrous consequences when it burst.
I think you're underestimating our dependence on biological systems our current numbers are seriously undermining.
 
yeah fossil fuels are gonna last forever.

We have to stop using them long before they run out anyway.

But the Uranium and Thorium will last indefinitely. So that's not a problem.

Indeed, with abundant inexpensive power, we can turn Carbon Dioxide back into oil if we want to.

Indefinitely?
Yes. http://www.daretothink.org/numbers-not-adjectives/how-long-will-our-supplies-of-uranium-and-thorium-last/
Anyway, back to the original topic, as others pointed out, birth rates are starting to go down, especially in developed nations, while agricultural science produced enough advances to stave off mass starvation, so the biggest concern did not come to pass, but we're not out of the woods yet. At least some of climate change can be attributed to our large population, as well as the expected problem with fresh water, and we're still taking up more and more land, thus driving other species into extinction. I dunno if we can anticipate the full consequences of that last one.

So there's still a chance that third world theists will fuck us all into a disaster, and now that we have pronatalist religious fanatics in the devloped world openly encouraging higher birth rates among third world theists, we may yet see some kind of disaster unfold from all of this. :(

Sure, we could fuck it all up; But we are not currently fucking it all up, at least, not as far as population numbers are concerned. I could drive my car off a cliff; but that shouldn't be a concern for me unless and until I am driving towards a cliff.

The Global Warming thing is (like EVERYTHING) loosely coupled to absolute population; but (again, like EVERYTHING) population is not the main driver, so it's not the place to go looking for solutions (particularly when most solutions are highly immoral - ranging from removing people's reproductive liberty in the best case, up to genocide at the worst.

If you want to tackle climate change, then the solution is already well known and well understood - nuclear power. It's also the safest power generation technology ever, even before we consider carbon dioxide emissions.

So we need to prevent the anti-contraception and anti-nuclear nutters (both of whom are taking a stance totally divorced from reason and fact) from controlling our future - but that's always going to be true. Letting poorly informed, poorly educated people with poor reasoning skills run things is a recipe for disaster at ANY level of population. As history has shown repeatedly.
 
So, in summary: The fears expressed in the intro to Soylent Green were not entirely unreasonable at that time; But even then, the solutions to the projected problems were becoming established, and four and a half decades later, we can see that those fears were hugely inflated, and that the things that rendered the concerns invalid are still in place and are still outpacing the growth of the underlying 'problem'.

Overpopulation is an outdated concern that no well informed person today should worry about in the slightest. So, as we might expect, a large number of people remain practically hysterical about it. Because whether or not the world has too many people, there is little doubt that it has FAR too few well informed people.
The Green Revolution was a bubble with disastrous consequences when it burst.
I think you're underestimating our dependence on biological systems our current numbers are seriously undermining.

Please, tell me all about these 'disastrous consequences', and the fact that the 'bubble' has 'burst'.

How do we explain the lack of famine in the world today, if The Green Revolution was a bubble that has burst? What did we do to recover? Where are the mounds of corpses?

Millions of people died from starvation before the Green Revolution, in a world with FAR lower population than today's. If your assessment that this was a bubble that HAS burst is true, then indeed the consequences should be disastrous; So where are the millions, indeed more reasonably tens or hundreds of millions, of dead people?

How anyone can believe this counter-factual twaddle is beyond me, but the false belief that things are not only not better, but are dramatically worse than they were five or six decades ago is incredibly prevalent, despite requiring willful ignorance to maintain.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, in a world full of people who still haven't let go of other, even more obviously irrational religious beliefs. But I still am shocked when apparently intelligent and educated people believe in Jesus, or Santa, or Overpopulation, despite the overwhelming evidence that these things are pure fiction.

Let me guess - the bubble has burst, but, like Wile E. Coyote running off a cliff edge, we won't fall until we look down (Hint: Real disasters don't wait for us to notice them before they start killing people). The disaster will start to unfold any day now - probably the day that Jesus returns.
 
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