Is there a communist element to the police brutality protests?

[Bronzeage]

They have a bigger agenda than just changing the grand jury system.

This is as much about economics as it is about race though.

We have all these superfluous people who the "system" doesn't need.

Do we do what a wise nation would do and find a way to make good use of these people?

Or do we follow the American model? Impoverish and then imprison them so some can profit from their imprisonment.

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Thinking anti-police protests are somehow linked to communism is a little weird, since every communist state that ever existed was a police state.

What you mean is every dictatorship that called itself Communist was a dictatorship.

I know a lot of people have said communism would be a good system, if anyone ever tried real communism. However, everyone who tried any kind of communism had to create a police state in order to try it. It's an unbroken pattern.

 

[Underseer]

I heard it on the local radio in Seattle. Granted, the radio station 97.3 KIRO FM here is very much an echo chamber that takes very few listener calls. Also it seems like the hosts with a couple exceptions are right wing and corporatist for their own job security.

I can't find the audio, but here is a link from the station's website:

http://mynorthwest.com/992/2674424/Extremists-behind-anticop-protests-leading-movement-to-demise

And actually, I am not against a leveling of the field economically. Or at least letting it happen more organically. But ironically, it seems to be government power to bail out wall street gamblers and low wage payers like Walmart through welfare going its workers that helps to feed inequality.


I remember going to a Occupy Wall Street protest at Westlake and I saw a very large contingent of Social Workers Party etc.. type people there.

Oh, absolutely. Anyone who would question police brutality must be communist, because patriotic Real Americans^TM care about our freedom, want to limit the power of the state, and therefore support acts of police brutality and complain bitterly about anyone who has a problem with it.

Because freedom isn't free, my friend!

 

[TV and credit cards]

Well, you're either a communist, a socialist, or a patriotic Real American™.
But no matter. We are a commodity. A commodity to be exploited to it's fullest potential; in the mall, in the fast food/hospital business model, in the prison, and even upon your death. Sure, in a perfect system, no one would have to be put down, but for now some losses will have to be tolerated until the herd can be fully mollified with improved fluoride compounds.
So there. You need a label? You need to identify with a group? Stamp commodity on your forehead.

Capitalism Run Amuck™.

 

[Davka]

They have a bigger agenda than just changing the grand jury system.

This is as much about economics as it is about race though.

We have all these superfluous people who the "system" doesn't need.

Do we do what a wise nation would do and find a way to make good use of these people?

Or do we follow the American model? Impoverish and then imprison them so some can profit from their imprisonment.

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What you mean is every dictatorship that called itself Communist was a dictatorship.

I know a lot of people have said communism would be a good system, if anyone ever tried real communism. However, everyone who tried any kind of communism had to create a police state in order to try it. It's an unbroken pattern.

Not quite. Remember the hippie communes? They didn't create police states, they simply fell apart - because people won't work hard for the common good with no selfish incentive.

 

[untermensche]

I know a lot of people have said communism would be a good system, if anyone ever tried real communism. However, everyone who tried any kind of communism had to create a police state in order to try it. It's an unbroken pattern.

A pattern?

A spot of mustard on your tie and on your pants is not a pattern.

 

[Harry Bosch]

A pattern? A spot of mustard on your tie and on your pants is not a pattern.

How else would a communist state be implemented if not without force? Most people won't give up their assets and livelihood without a fight.

 

[untermensche]

A pattern? A spot of mustard on your tie and on your pants is not a pattern.

How else would a communist state be implemented if not without force? Most people won't give up their assets and livelihood without a fight.

I know material things are what concern you most, but the problem I have with a system like Stalinism is that it was a brutal dictatorship.

My first concern is how power is structured.

Not whether or not the rich monarchy gets to keep all their castles.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I know material things are what concern you most, but the problem I have with a system like Stalinism is that it was a brutal dictatorship. My first concern is how power is structured. Not whether or not the rich monarchy gets to keep all their castles.

yes, I'm very concerned with my assets - it's how I feed my family. Your problem with Stalinism should also be that it dosen't work.

 

[ZiprHead]

How else would a communist state be implemented if not without force? Most people won't give up their assets and livelihood without a fight.

I know material things are what concern you most, but the problem I have with a system like Stalinism is that it was a brutal dictatorship.

My first concern is how power is structured.

Not whether or not the rich monarchy gets to keep all their castles.

You can have my castle. I've been under water on it since the real estate bust.

Luckily I didn't follow the real estate "experts" advice, backed by the oligarchs, and bought something three times more expensive then I did. If I had, we would have been out on the street long ago.

 

[laughing dog]

I heard it on the local radio in Seattle. Granted, the radio station 97.3 KIRO FM here is very much an echo chamber that takes very few listener calls. Also it seems like the hosts with a couple exceptions are right wing and corporatist for their own job security.

I can't find the audio, but here is a link from the station's website:

http://mynorthwest.com/992/2674424/Extremists-behind-anticop-protests-leading-movement-to-demise

And actually, I am not against a leveling of the field economically. Or at least letting it happen more organically. But ironically, it seems to be government power to bail out wall street gamblers and low wage payers like Walmart through welfare going its workers that helps to feed inequality.


I remember going to a Occupy Wall Street protest at Westlake and I saw a very large contingent of Social Workers Party etc.. type people there.

What does matter which elements are part of the police brutality protests?

 

[Harry Bosch]

You can have my castle. I've been under water on it since the real estate bust. Luckily I didn't follow the real estate "experts" advice, backed by the oligarchs, and bought something three times more expensive then I did. If I had, we would have been out on the street long ago.

Where do you live? Most RE values have recovered and are on the upswing in Oregon and Washington.

 

[Valjean]

I know a lot of people have said communism would be a good system, if anyone ever tried real communism. However, everyone who tried any kind of communism had to create a police state in order to try it. It's an unbroken pattern.

Not quite. Remember the hippie communes? They didn't create police states, they simply fell apart - because people won't work hard for the common good with no selfish incentive.

First, the "Hippie communes" aren't gone. There are more than ever. They've just matured into well planned, smoothly functioning, low profile operations. Google Intentional Communities.

A better example might be the communist/Christian Hutterite communities, some of the old Israeli Kibbutzim or the Danish Co-Housing communities.

 

[Bronzeage]

Not quite. Remember the hippie communes? They didn't create police states, they simply fell apart - because people won't work hard for the common good with no selfish incentive.

First, the "Hippie communes" aren't gone. There are more than ever. They've just matured into well planned, smoothly functioning, low profile operations. Google Intentional Communities.

A better example might be the communist/Christian Hutterite communities, some of the old Israeli Kibbutzim or the Danish Co-Housing communities.

Hippie communes and Kibbutzim do not count as national governments. They are more like an extended family. Communes and Kibbutzim do not have the power to imprison people who break their rules.

 

[Valjean]

A "national government" is just a type of large commune or street gang. I don't see any substantive difference between the Twin Oaks community, the Black Panthers and the [insert country here] government.
And all will enforce their rules, one way or another.

 

[Bronzeage]

A "national government" is just a type of large commune or street gang. I don't see any substantive difference between the Twin Oaks community, the Black Panthers and the [insert country here] government.
And all will enforce their rules, one way or another.

I would refer you to the "everybody has an opinion" thread.

If you do not see "any substantive difference between the Twin Oaks community, the Black Panthers and the [insert country here] government,..." it points to a cognitive deficiency.

 

[Valjean]

Please enlighten me then. What are these essential differences?

 

[Bomb#20]

First, the "Hippie communes" aren't gone. There are more than ever. They've just matured into well planned, smoothly functioning, low profile operations. Google Intentional Communities.

A better example might be the communist/Christian Hutterite communities, some of the old Israeli Kibbutzim or the Danish Co-Housing communities.

Hippie communes and Kibbutzim do not count as national governments. They are more like an extended family. Communes and Kibbutzim do not have the power to imprison people who break their rules.

Right. Also, none of these kinds of communities abolish private ownership, not even private ownership of the means of production. They're established in the context of legal systems that will enforce their members' private property rights against collective demands. So calling such communities "communist" is an exercise in giving the credit for everything that makes them nice places to live to a characteristic they do not in fact possess. That's propaganda in its purest form.

 

[Valjean]

Hippie communes and Kibbutzim do not count as national governments. They are more like an extended family. Communes and Kibbutzim do not have the power to imprison people who break their rules.

Right. Also, none of these kinds of communities abolish private ownership, not even private ownership of the means of production. They're established in the context of legal systems that will enforce their members' private property rights against collective demands. So calling such communities "communist" is an exercise in giving the credit for everything that makes them nice places to live to a characteristic they do not in fact possess. That's propaganda in its purest form.

Some do some don't. Rules and organizational structures vary widely. Hutterites, for example, hold all property in common. Houses, clothing, vehicles, food, money -- all community property. Hutterites work in assigned jobs, cook in a communal kitchen and eat in a communal refectory.
How would "communist" not apply to them?

 

[Bronzeage]

Right. Also, none of these kinds of communities abolish private ownership, not even private ownership of the means of production. They're established in the context of legal systems that will enforce their members' private property rights against collective demands. So calling such communities "communist" is an exercise in giving the credit for everything that makes them nice places to live to a characteristic they do not in fact possess. That's propaganda in its purest form.

Some do some don't. Rules and organizational structures vary widely. Hutterites, for example, hold all property in common. Houses, clothing, vehicles, food, money -- all community property. Hutterites work in assigned jobs, cook in a communal kitchen and eat in a communal refectory.
How would "communist" not apply to them?

Call them "Communist" all you like. Don't call them a national government.

 

[Valjean]

So Vatican City, Monaco and Nauru are nations, while the Hells Angels is not? Why, because countries officially recognize each other? Is nationhood just an old boys club?
What about internal laws, regulation of commerce, organized defense, foreign relations and 'international' treaties? Aren't these 'national' qualities?