• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Is there a scientific theory that explains the quality of pain in terms of the physical universe?

Is there a scientific theory that explains the quality of pain in terms of the physical universe?


  • Total voters
    6
  • Poll closed .
I state clear experience.

You for some insane reason call it a mantra.

And I state facts.

I must do something with my mind to make the arm move.

That is what science needs to explain.

Not pretend it isn't happening.

You have no clue what the underlying mechanisms are or what is happening when I do that something with my mind.

You can follow the command once given but where it comes from you cannot explain.

Nobody is denying the fact that you claim your 'clear experience'

Or that you have the experience of conscious agency.

That is not the issue.

The issue is that you completely deny the underlying mechanisms and means of your 'clear experience'

You have no understanding of any underlying mechanisms for the initiation of voluntary motion.

The mantra here is "underlying mechanisms, underlying mechanisms, underlying mechanisms, underlying mechanisms..."

Without any known mechanism in mind.

This is no further than the experiential stage.

But it is the experience of doing something with the mind that needs to be explained and understood.

Not shoved under the rug in a pretense that there is some understanding of the initiation of conscious willed voluntary movement.


Your Mantra has no merit. No merit whatsoever;

Brain mechanisms underlying automatic and unconscious control of motor action

''Are we in command of our motor acts?The popular belief holds that our conscious decisions are the direct causes of our actions. However, overwhelming evidence from neurosciences demonstrates that our actions are instead largely driven by brain processes that unfold outside of our consciousness. To study these brain processes, scientists have used a range of different functional brain imaging techniques and experimental protocols, such as subliminal priming. Here, we review recent advances in the field and propose a theoretical model of motor control that may contribute to a better understanding of the pathophysiology of movement disorders such as Parkinson's disease''
 
Nothing to do with timing of guesses. You are clutching at straws. Timing is a physical process....first information input from the senses, then distribution of that information, then processing, then conscious representation and response....parallel rather than linear information processing.
 
So, Mr Untermensche.....how do you think that helps or supports your claim for the autonomy of conscious mind? Can you explain?
 
Here is really what is happening.

View attachment 19548

I tried to find the source of this diagram because I was suspicious of texts like 'something happens' and 'other stuff happens' and 'subjective guesses about the timing of something happening'. Using google search for source found the following https://www.google.com/search?tbs=s...tw9Vu--G3REiE0hckFqBKgEQoR1-HaDcl4ZDvYUAHflTg

Which is a couple diagram generating pages not linked to any specific source.

So, with DBT I'm asking how this apparent fraudulent diagram supports your contentions. It's obviously not connected to research. Yeah, I know it's really tough when one of us unimaginative types doesn't permit whole cloth inventions to serve as 'fact'.

With you and Trump though it's quite easy to debunk.
 
So, Mr Untermensche.....how do you think that helps or supports your claim for the autonomy of conscious mind? Can you explain?

It shows the emperor's new clothing nature of these kinds of experiments.

It shows you are basing your opinions on delusional made up stories.
 
Hi pot. Obviously you've never met Mr. Kettle. Yours are the chirpings of a free range dualist.

I'm not the one making up fictional tales based only on a tiny increase in activity in some part of the brain.

And based on activity that is not understood at all.
 
Tar is an interesting subject for one with a brush willing to use it. Since most have already understood how information gets to these loci enough to determine these parts of the brain are responsible for initiating descending (action producing) information one has pretty much tarred up the arena when one says this understanding is "not understood at all".

All activity in the brain involves "tiny increases in activity" one comes to the conclusion that those who denigrate this way are actually trying to sell unwashed in Ohio bomb shelters because of the threat from the red scourge.
 
Tar is an interesting subject for one with a brush willing to use it. Since most have already understood how information gets to these loci enough to determine these parts of the brain are responsible for initiating descending (action producing) information one has pretty much tarred up the arena when one says this understanding is "not understood at all".

All activity in the brain involves "tiny increases in activity" one comes to the conclusion that those who denigrate this way are actually trying to sell unwashed in Ohio bomb shelters because of the threat from the red scourge.

Some activity is a decrease in activity.

And some activity must be directing other activity.

Pointing to a few thousand cells and making up stories about what the cells are doing is a game for children.
 
So, Mr Untermensche.....how do you think that helps or supports your claim for the autonomy of conscious mind? Can you explain?

It shows the emperor's new clothing nature of these kinds of experiments.

It shows you are basing your opinions on delusional made up stories.

Logic isn't really your strong point. Far from it. You base your assertions on bluff and bluster....which doesn't fool anyone but yourself.
 
Tar is an interesting subject for one with a brush willing to use it. Since most have already understood how information gets to these loci enough to determine these parts of the brain are responsible for initiating descending (action producing) information one has pretty much tarred up the arena when one says this understanding is "not understood at all".

All activity in the brain involves "tiny increases in activity" one comes to the conclusion that those who denigrate this way are actually trying to sell unwashed in Ohio bomb shelters because of the threat from the red scourge.

Some activity is a decrease in activity.

And some activity must be directing other activity.

Pointing to a few thousand cells and making up stories about what the cells are doing is a game for children.

This is a science thread. BS not welcome. Several thousand articles pursuing such behavior stomps your poo poo pops..
 
So, Mr Untermensche.....how do you think that helps or supports your claim for the autonomy of conscious mind? Can you explain?

It shows the emperor's new clothing nature of these kinds of experiments.

It shows you are basing your opinions on delusional made up stories.

Logic isn't really your strong point. Far from it. You base your assertions on bluff and bluster....which doesn't fool anyone but yourself.

There is no logic involved.

What you have are a bunch of wild claims that activity that shows up for an unknown reason is understood.

All that is known is where some activity arises.

What exactly that activity is and why it arose is not known at all.

But that doesn't stop humans from inventing stories about the activity to pretend they know what it is and how it arose.

Emperor's new clothes bullshit!
 
Tar is an interesting subject for one with a brush willing to use it. Since most have already understood how information gets to these loci enough to determine these parts of the brain are responsible for initiating descending (action producing) information one has pretty much tarred up the arena when one says this understanding is "not understood at all".

All activity in the brain involves "tiny increases in activity" one comes to the conclusion that those who denigrate this way are actually trying to sell unwashed in Ohio bomb shelters because of the threat from the red scourge.

Some activity is a decrease in activity.

And some activity must be directing other activity.

Pointing to a few thousand cells and making up stories about what the cells are doing is a game for children.

This is a science thread. BS not welcome. Several thousand articles pursuing such behavior stomps your poo poo pops..

There is some very basic research. And a lot of bullshit wild stories and claims by idiots.

There is no research that can explain how we are doing what we are doing right here.

There is no research that comes close to explaining human capabilities. None that understand what any activity in the brain is specifically doing. Only where it is.
 
Oh, yeah, the whole scientific community who research brain function are obviously wrong, their methods are shit, their evidence and analysis woeful....but our Mr Untermensche is on the ball, he knows that mind is autonomous, a ''smart mind operating a dumb brain'' like a rider and horse. How does he know? Well, because we can all lift our arm at will.

Shut down all research facilities, they are a waste of money, Mr UM has has the answers.
 
There is a massive delusion based on very little.

A massive delusion that the mind is not ordering the arm to move.

And no evidence showing otherwise.

No human knows what the mind is objectively.

So it is not surprising they can't see it acting.

And because these "scientists" don't know what the mind is they simply pretend it isn't there.

Massive delusion.

If you ask a subject to guess about the timing of something you are assuming they have the autonomy to make such guesses.

If you are counting the guess as evidence of something you are assuming the autonomy is real.
 
The delusion lies in ignoring the mechanisms and means of your conscious experience. It is clearly not the researchers who are caught in this delusion.
 
There is no research that can explain how we are doing what we are doing right here.

There is no research that comes close to explaining human capabilities. None that understand what any activity in the brain is specifically doing. Only where it is.

First, those of us in the field are keenly aware of shortcomings in intra and intercellular communication research. We are trained to take steps to insure our EEG, for instance, isn't comparable to that of linked worms or gourds filled with jello. A relatively simple multicellular multiple probe study, even in the sixties and seventies had so many controls and conditions that successful data collection often took five or six iterations to get useable information from just one subject or sacrificial mammal, bird, fish, or even reptile.

As for sacrificial we have come to know nervous systems, their relations among gnera, and their evolution through quite a bit of of what you attempt to denigrate. In my view if research didn't include corporate research animal studies would be considered necessary by most everyone. I think it was I who brought up the example of cellular recording being akin to the task faced by Martians trying to understand humans when they dropped a microphone fifty feet above ground at the junction of seventh and broadway in NYC.

I'm encouraged that with physics we have come to understand that matter and energy as we know it composes only about 5% of all matter and energy in the universe and still we can plot orbits, plan planet missions, construct experiments based on visual observations of things we may never touch directly.

If we took your pessimism and dismissive attitude to those circumstances we'd surely just close up shop and end out exploration of our world. Sure we can't say that this neuron did that when Joe received photons at his retina. Still we knew as early as the 1950s that what Joe saw depended on the quantum catch of photo receptors in the retina. We know that the brain makes many maps of most every visual event and process and that particular ones in particular areas in the visual cortex are responsible for generating perceptions of objects, their movement and interactions, and their importance to our dealing with them. We even have fairly specific ideas now about where decisions relation to action are made in frontal cortex.

That isn't much when compared to what we don't yet understand, but, I'll put it in the ballpark with what physicists know of their topics matter and energy. We are even generating molecules, as I write, that can impact specific behavioral syndromes with some precision compared with the storing we used to use to teat these so afflicted.

I'm very happy with where we are at this time relative to other sciences and I sense we are getting more and more support as the result of our status.

We won't 'know' exactly the biological engineering needed to execute behavior. Yet we can model and train with fair certainty how humans react to a broad range of time critical events in emergency situations because of what we know about human behavior. We know so much that we are getting scared that we aren't controlling why we choose because of such as AI, data mining, trend following and predicting. Now it is time for the social sciences to get a move on so we can keep a lid on our ability to deal with data and social commerce and remain a society or system of cultures.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DBT
The delusion lies in ignoring the mechanisms and means of your conscious experience. It is clearly not the researchers who are caught in this delusion.

You know NO mechanisms for the production of the ability to experience something.

You know NO controlling mechanisms of the brain.

You don't have the slightest clue why the brain does the things it does or how it does them.

You can not explain the simplest experience in the mind in terms of brain physiology.

Your empty claims to understanding some mechanism are total bullshit!
 
Back
Top Bottom