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Is there an afterlife?

Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
Logic states that the a priori probability of God or and afterlife is 1/infinity, or near zero...
Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
Atheists know with as much rational certainty as anything can be known that God and an afterlife do not exist.

ronburgundy is just being helpful and this forum is a good resource for people who want to learn about the things which atheists believe ...claim to know with dogmatic certainty.

perhaps some lurker is interested in learning more about atheism and might enjoy an easy read...

Exactly!

Wow, you think, “logic states that the probability is near zero” equals “dogmatic certainty”???
You are not good at meanings.

For those interested in meaningful inquiry; the difference, of course, is that probabilities are easily and frequently re-examined under new evidence. Dogmatic Certainty (how Lion thinks) is not.
 
ronburgundy is just being helpful and this forum is a good resource for people who want to learn about the things which atheists believe ...claim to know with dogmatic certainty.

perhaps some lurker is interested in learning more about atheism and might enjoy an easy read...

Exactly!

Thanks for the irony Lion. Atheists don't believe in god and you think we're the dogmatic ones. That's a good one. We simply are skeptical of claims that aren't based on facts and don't have reliable evidence. How is that dogmatic? We're not the ones knocking on doors or preaching what we believe from pulpits.

Christians of the conservative variety, on the other hand, believe in an invisible, all powerful, entity that controls the world, knows exactly what each of us is doing at any time, punishes those who don't believe it exists, and rewards those who believe it exists and asks it to forgive them for any immoral things, aka "sins" that they have or will commit in the future. And some of them even try to convince others that they must believe the same things or else. No. That's not at all dogmatic./s

Lacking a belief in something unproven don't seem dogmatic to me. It seems rational, or thoughtful and realistic. Just because we don't understand everything about the universe doesn't mean we should believe some made up stuff that was first created by some ancients who had far less understanding of the universe than we currently do. But, I digress. I thought we were talking about why it's not right to lie to children.

Here's the thing. I never told my son that there was or wasn't an afterlife. I taught him that death was a normal part of the life cycle of all living things. He seemed fine with it. When it came to whether or not there was some kind of after life after we die, he figured that one out all by his little self without any consequences. I didn't want to tell him what to believe. I wanted him to do his own investigation and come to his own conclusions.

We're all gonna die. Deal with it. I've yet to meet an atheist who was afraid of death. Most older people are afraid of dependency or of pain and suffering at the end of life, but most people aren't afraid of death, including the few atheist patients that I had the privilege to care for during the end of their lives.


And btw, since you quoted something of mine from another thread. Somebody did tell me in private that they would like to read that book that I mentioned and that person is a Christian. The idea wasn't to convert anyone. The idea was to help others understand the history of atheism etc.
 
...I know there is no afterlife.
...and if I became a parent, I would still know it (it's pretty obvious to me).
...And some atheist parents know it...

These statements seem pretty dogmatic.
ronburgundy isn't alone.
 
...not that there's anything wrong with being a fundy. (wink)
 
...I know there is no afterlife.
...and if I became a parent, I would still know it (it's pretty obvious to me).
...And some atheist parents know it...

These statements seem pretty dogmatic.
ronburgundy isn't alone.


You keep using that word, “dogmatic.” I don’t think it means what you think it means.
 
Lion IRC, this is a reply to your "dogmatic" claim.

The information I found in support of the afterlife consists in claims of near death experiences and out of body experiences, plus religious claims and philosophical arguments. The arguments are really poor, and the empirical evidence does very little to support the claim, so it barely raises its probability. On the other hand, the evidence against the afterlife is overwhelming:

First, I see that there are movies, TV shows and generally works of fiction in which the evidence for the afterlife is indeed very strong (when needed, modified to avoid continuity problems, which we may do in order to consider a hypothetical scenario). For example, there are ghosts that appear to some of the main characters – or to all – and who communicate real information, or move things, possess people, and so on. Clearly, that’s a lot of evidence. There could be counter-evidence within the stories, but at least, a lot of things are found that support strongly an afterlife. If I were to observe that in the real world, I would definitely give an afterlife a far higher probability than I do. But I do not see any of that at all. What I see is claims of “near death experiences” which do little in the way of supporting the afterlife.

Second, there are also movies, TV shows, etc., in which evidence of an afterlife might be weaker than the previous one, but still, there is good evidence that human consciousness goes on without attachment to a particular brain. For example, spells that make two people “swap bodies”, or something like that. Now, that’s of course not as good as the previous list, but it’s something suggesting an afterlife at least, and definitely would block the counter-evidence I will list below. But again, I see nothing of the sort in the real world.

Third, what I see is this: when humans suffers different damage to different parts of the brain, they lose some mental abilities, properties, etc. For example, old people often suffer serious degradation to their capacity to reason, form new memories, learn new things. Other brain injuries can cause memory loss – even massive memory loss -, as well as a loss of the capacity to form new memories. They can also cause (depending on the injury) a loss of the ability to speak, or – again – to reason. They can also result in the loss of pain or the capacity to feel it, or to fear, and so on. Of course, injuries to the brain also can cause the loss of the ability to process sensory input, resulting in blindness, loss of hearing, and so on.
Now, different sorts of damage to the brain – temporary like with certain drugs, or permanent – also cause specific changes in moods, in what a person wants to do, in how calm or angry they are, etc.
It did not have to be like that, by the way. I might have found that when the brain is damaged – blow to the head, aging, disease -, the mind loses the ability to control it, perhaps sensory information, etc., but without losing anything else, certainly not consciousness, but also not things like the ability to reason, or fear, or memories, or any of the above. And of course, I could have found that people swap bodies with some spells. But no, that’s not remotely what I found.
Given the above, once all of the brain is destroyed, I reckon that no person is left – it’s all gone.
But what about phenomenal consciousness?
However, that is not left, either. There are excellent reasons to think that’s gone too. For example, we can see that some brain injuries – easily, a blow to the head – result in loss of consciousness, even if in those cases temporary. Destroy the whole brain, and it’s pretty obvious that nothing is left, especially given the rest of the above evidence.
Moreover, that’s not really the point: if some sort of phenomenal consciousness were left, there would still be no afterlife, since the person would have ceased to exist, and what would remain in that scenario would be something else, but not that person – nor, for that matter, a person at all.
This is not an argument against panpsychism, by the way. Even if, say, after a human dies, each of the gazillion particles left has some tiny part of mind, a phenomenal consciousness of sorts, that is no afterlife of course.


So, in short, there is no afterlife – human afterlife, that is, but the same holds for all other animals of course, even if some of the pieces of evidence are somewhat less direct in such cases.

Of course, it does not logically follow from any of the above that there is no afterlife. But for that matter, it does not follow from any piece of information at my disposal that, say, the Moon Landing ever happened, or that World War I happened, or that humans and fruit flies have a common ancestor, or that the Moon will still be orbiting the Earth next month, or that...well, anything about the world around me. Yet I know all of those things and many others, so clearly the fact that it does not follow from the information at my disposal would not be a serious objection.

I have encountered another, puzzling objection, which says that all of the things I mention only say that damage to the brain during life damages or affects the mind, but it says nothing about what happens after death. That is a confused objection. Of course, if I want to make an assessment about what will happen to a human mind, I have to look at the information that is available and make an assessment based on it. And of course, I might well have found good evidence of an afterlife and no counter-evidence (see examples above), but that is not what I found.

Now, of course, someone might come up with a specific description of an afterlife that is consistent and immune to the above: for example, one might describe a scenario in which a human mind is gradually or quickly deteriorating with age and disease, etc. - as it really happens – and then after the whole brain is destroyed, consciousness continues, and it’s the same consciousness not another one – e. g., the “body swap” happens only after death, and the person goes to an immortal body or whatever. However, if someone includes all of that in their hypothesis, they make it extremely improbable just as first, rather than after considering the evidence. For that matter, a defense attorney in a criminal case might say that even after the prosecutor presented all sorts of pieces of evidence, she has provided not even a tiny speck of evidence against the hypothesis that his client was framed by a powerful superintelligent extraterrestrial artificial intelligence that wanted to plant exactly the pieces of evidence found by the prosecutor, for such-and-such reasons (reasons the defense attorney can consistently make up). Well, if the defense attorney comes up with a sufficiently smart story, sure, the defense attorney has failed to provide evidence against that hypothesis. But that of course in no way prevents her from establishing the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.

In short, on the basis of the above evidence – plus specific debunking of specific religions when needed, but that would be beyond the scope of this short piece -, I reckon the afterlife does not exist – and further, I reckon I know that the afterlife does not exist.
 
...I know there is no afterlife.
...and if I became a parent, I would still know it (it's pretty obvious to me).
...And some atheist parents know it...

These statements seem pretty dogmatic.
ronburgundy isn't alone.

They are not dogmatic. They are rational assessments.

Oh. OK.
In that case you are using the term "I know" in the same sense as I would when speaking about the existence of the afterlife. We just happen to disagree. (Fundy versus fundy. Dogmatism versus dogmatism. Burden of proof versus burden of proof.)

I certainly wouldn't lie to someone about the very real existence of the afterlife in order to try and make them feel happier. But then, my afterlife assertion (dogma) entails a little more consequence than your contrary claim about the afterlife. #Pascals_Wager.
 
Logic states that the a priori probability of God or and afterlife is 1/infinity, or near zero...

Atheists know with as much rational certainty as anything can be known that God and an afterlife do not exist.

Thanks ronburgundy.
These are keepers. Going straight into my quotemine vault.
#nonstampcollectors #burdenofproof

You definitely should remember them, b/c unless everything else you think, these statements are objectively true and supported by reason. Sadly, your unfamiliarity with reasoned thought means your likely incapable of understanding the reasoning behind them.
 
ronburgundy is just being helpful and this forum is a good resource for people who want to learn about the things which atheists believe ...claim to know with dogmatic certainty.

Dogmatic certainty means 100% certainty with no possibility of being wrong and no consideration of relevant evidence and logic. My entire post was about evidence based and logic based probabilities that put the God hypotheses "near zero", but explicitly "NOT zero" and that "the probability of God cannot be said to be zero". I also said "with as much rational certainty as anything can be". Your twisted interpretation that this means with 100% certainty only shows that you have no concept of what rationality even is. Only faith, the basis of all theism, allows for 100% dogmatic certainty. The opposite of faith, rational thought, does not allow for 100% certainty, so "as much rational certainty as anything can be" is still not the 100% certainty that defines dogmatism.
 
Thanks ronburgundy.
These are keepers. Going straight into my quotemine vault.
#nonstampcollectors #burdenofproof

You definitely should remember them, b/c unless everything else you think, these statements are objectively true and supported by reason.

I don't doubt that you emphatically believe those dogmatic statements to be "objectively true."
Good for you. *thumbsup*

I'm bookmarking yours and Angra Mainyu's claims because they show that atheists can be fundies too. Fundy in the sense that you don't 'believe'...you know.



Sadly, your unfamiliarity with reasoned thought means your likely incapable of understanding the reasoning behind them.

#FSTDT
 
Lion IRC said:
Oh. OK.
In that case you are using the term "I know" in the same sense as I would when speaking about the existence of the afterlife. We just happen to disagree. (Fundy versus fundy. Dogmatism versus dogmatism. Burden of proof versus burden of proof.
Only if you are using "I know" in the same sense you'd say that you know Trump is to POTUS, the Earth is not flat, etc., i.e., the usual sense in English.
When I say they are rational assessments, I do not mean that "I know" means that they are rational assessments. I'm denying your claim that they are dogmatic, etc.
 
You know there are dictionaries and thesauruses online right?
And that the definition of the word dogma/dogmatic hasn't changed recently.
 
You know there are dictionaries and thesauruses online right?
And that the definition of the word dogma/dogmatic hasn't changed recently.

Sure, the definition of "dogmatic" is not a problem. You are mistaken in your assessment that my assessments are dogmatic, as I have already shown in the thread (see my arguments against the afterlife).
 
Lion IRC said:
Oh. OK.
In that case you are using the term "I know" in the same sense as I would when speaking about the existence of the afterlife. We just happen to disagree. (Fundy versus fundy. Dogmatism versus dogmatism. Burden of proof versus burden of proof.
Only if you are using "I know" in the same sense you'd say that you know Trump is to POTUS, the Earth is not flat, etc., i.e., the usual sense in English.
When I say they are rational assessments, I do not mean that "I know" means that they are rational assessments. I'm denying your claim that they are dogmatic, etc.

Dogmatism has nothing to do with rational discourse and everything to do with rules, authority, unproven statements and enforcement. To say "There are no gods or afterlives" is not dogma by any stretch of the word. In fact, it is precisely the opposite of dogma, and Lion certainly knows this. From a catholic perspective it would actually be anti-dogmatic to make such a statement.

But if I'm a catholic fundy and I say to my child "There is an afterlife" one is absolutely hearing catholic dogma. Also, if I'm a fundy catholic and I say to my child "There is no afterlife" I have just spoken the precise opposite of the dogma my faith teaches. So only a fool would refer to such a statement as dogma.

If I say, "Trump is POTUS," this has absolutely nothing to do with dogma, it's simply a factual statement based on everyday rational observation, the same as saying I am married or I drive a blue car. There is nothing in such statements alluding to principles, authority or enforcement of same such as one would experience with statements of religious dogma.
 
Atheist - I know there is no afterlife.
(Reason, logic, everybody knows this is true, it's a brute fact. Atheists really know their stuff.)

Theist - I know there is an afterlife.
(Faith head woo, fundy dogma, delusion, wishful thinking, a lie invented to control people, no matter what percentage of the population think this is true - it's still an unsupported claim with zero evidence.)

If you can't see the level of special pleading which separates this double standard dissonance then you are guilty of gross hypocrisy.
 
Atheist - I know there is no afterlife.
(Reason, logic, everybody knows this is true, it's a brute fact. Atheists really know their stuff.)

Theist - I know there is an afterlife.
(Faith head woo, fundy dogma, delusion, wishful thinking, a lie invented to control people, no matter what percentage of the population think this is true - it's still an unsupported claim with zero evidence.)

If you can't see the level of special pleading which separates this double standard dissonance then you are guilty of gross hypocrisy.

I can see why you would do flips and twists to try to equate the WAY we arrive at an answer as equivalent with the WAY you arrive at an answer. You probably feel that it lends credence and authority to your conclusion.

But since you are achingly wrong in your equivalence, there is not relevance given to your afterlife claim.

You can try though. You were presented with strong logical arguments for why a person would conclude there is no afterlife. The WAY an atheist would typically approach this would be to wonder, “if there were afterlife, what would the evidence look like,” and then notice none of that evidence exists.


So try our logical way of thinking. What does evidence for afterlife look like to you and where have you seen it, Lion?
I’m all ears, ready to see HOW you arrive at a conclusion.
 
Atheist - I know there is no afterlife.
(Reason, logic, everybody knows this is true, it's a brute fact. Atheists really know their stuff.)

Rational, accurate, non-threatening conclusion based on everyday, mundane observations with some additional parenthetical commentary.

Lion IRC said:
Theist - I know there is an afterlife.
(Faith head woo, fundy dogma, delusion, wishful thinking, a lie invented to control people, no matter what percentage of the population think this is true - it's still an unsupported claim with zero evidence.)

Emotionally satisfying statement of faith, a lie, not based on evidence or observation, only rational in the sense that it affords comfort and mental security, with additional parenthetical commentary.

Lion IRC said:
If you can't see the level of special pleading which separates this double standard dissonance then you are guilty of gross hypocrisy.

More parenthetical commentary. An attempt to disparage a sound argument. Nowhere has special pleading or hypocrisy been demonstrated.
 
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