• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Is there an afterlife?

There is no reason to think the afterlife (discarnate consciousness) isn't real.

Let's unpack. You've invoked "reason," so that's already problematic for you, but we'll get to that in a minute. First, you've defined an "afterlife" as "discarnate consciousness."

Ok, so what exactly would that entail? This is the "reason" part.

The only evidence we have of something we call "consciousness" is that it's a product of the brain's process, a decidedly carnate function. As others have already pointed out, damage the brain and you alter consciousness in repeatably consistent and predictive fashion, such as with alcohol; pot; lsd; a baseball bat; lobotomy; tumors; complete anterograde amnesia; foreign accent syndrome no less; etc., etc., etc.

We can literally feel and see and measure the effects on "consciousness" by doing a multitude of different alterations to the physical brain, not the least of which is, of course, death.

We also have empirical evidence of the power of the brain to create elaborate yet false "realities" that we call "dreams," where time dilation, for example, is almost always present. Iow, we can experience what seem to us at the time we are dreaming to be days/weeks/months/years, etc, that actually all take place within a few minutes (if not seconds).

This is a process that occurs in every single human that has ever lived (with extremely rare exceptions), so it is something that we have literally trillions of examples every year from the billions of humans on the planet that experience them every single night (many several times in a night).

This brain process is likewise measurable and alterable (either externally or internally).

So, use your "reason" now to help you determine what is the more likely explanation for the origin of our species' beliefs in an "after life." The ability of our brains to create the false perception of any amount of time passage it chooses that actually takes place in a chemical instant--evidence of which is overwhelming and demonstrated every time you go to sleep--or a "discarnate" process of a overwhelmingly carnate function.
 
Um...you (and ronburgundy) got called out by Jimmy Higgins for your overreach. Your claim to "know" stuff about a topic for which atheists vociferously claim there is NO EVIDENCE. Well, if there's no evidence, then you don't have any either.
:shrug:
That you think this is a flaw in their position is folly. You seem to be reveling in holding a position with no evidence and gleefully criticizing people for doubting a position that has no evidence that can be provided. 'Why can't you see it?! The mere fact it can't be presented as truth means it just has to be true. It is an idea so crazy it has to work!'
 
Some of the latest research on treating psychosis indicates that psychosis is caused by an autoimmune condition. My take is that it may even be good for the brain in small doses, and only become debilitating and harmful when occurring in the extreme. Makes sense to me.

Afterlives and spirits and souls and otherworldly immortal existences are certainly not real, claims of which may seem quirky and weird to a rational person, but to the affected individual I can see the additional brain activity conferring a survival advantage. Given environmental conditions it may make the brain smarter and stronger than it would otherwise have been.

It's one way to explain the weirdness.
 
When confronted with explicit arguments the theists here invariable evade and pivot unable to form a response. But then by definition religious faith is belief without objective evidence. All's a theist has to say is I belive and know it is true even though I can not prove it.

It's the difference between belief in an afterlife and an actual afterlife. Believing in something does not make it real, however emotionally satisfying the belief. There's a disconnect here, a lack of self awareness.

I recently moved into a senior apartment building. I got into a conversation with a woman in end stage cancer. I was not about to debate her faith when she began saying how her faith was a comfort to her.

To me religion or any belief that provides comfort is fine, as long as it is not pushed on us like conservative Christianity.

Theists tend to not get our points. I think on the flip side atheists do not get what religion actually provides to people emotionally. The ide of an afterlife is a great comfort to many.

We can call out hypocrisy and the like, but those of us who do not need it appear to be in the minority. I looked at the site for a local Unitarian Universalist church. Not much different than Christian churches except for a rigid theology. Sunday morality class for kids. Services and singing.

No real requirement to participate, even atheists. I saw it as a church for people that do not want religion but want a support system and a moral structure.
 
When confronted with explicit arguments the theists here invariable evade and pivot unable to form a response. But then by definition religious faith is belief without objective evidence. All's a theist has to say is I belive and know it is true even though I can not prove it.

It's the difference between belief in an afterlife and an actual afterlife. Believing in something does not make it real, however emotionally satisfying the belief. There's a disconnect here, a lack of self awareness.

I recently moved into a senior apartment building. I got into a conversation with a woman in end stage cancer. I was not about to debate her faith when she began saying how her faith was a comfort to her.

To me religion or any belief that provides comfort is fine, as long as it is not pushed on us like conservative Christianity.

Theists tend to not get our points. I think on the flip side atheists do not get what religion actually provides to people emotionally. The ide of an afterlife is a great comfort to many.

We can call out hypocrisy and the like, but those of us who do not need it appear to be in the minority. I looked at the site for a local Unitarian Universalist church. Not much different than Christian churches except for a rigid theology. Sunday morality class for kids. Services and singing.

No real requirement to participate, even atheists. I saw it as a church for people that do not want religion but want a support system and a moral structure.

It persists in one person but not another person so it is obviously something learned, like when people acquire phobias. Phobias of spiders and snakes are actually healthy, obviously selected for. So long as they don't become debilitating they're part of the tool kit.

Belief in an afterlife is not so different, a phobia about death is all it is perhaps. Maybe the most ardent devotees are affected by both phobia and psychosis. Natural selection has weeded out the craziest of the crowd so we're left with those who's condition is mild, perhaps even advantageous to the individual in terms of survival, all other things being equal.
 
Lion IRC said:
Sure, you just can't debate the evidence for or contra the existence of the soul/afterlife in a thread about;
...whether it's OK for atheists to lie to children about the existence of the soul/afterlife
First, the post of mine that you were replying to was this one, and that was a post in this thread, not in the other one.

Second, when you say " you just can't debate the evidence for or contra the existence of the soul/afterlife" you mean that I, in fact, cannot do that when the OP is about whether it's OK, etc., that depends on what happens to the posts if I try. In this case, what happened was that the posts were moved to another thread, so it is true that I cannot debate it there. However, I can debate it here.
On other other hand, if you mean that I should not debate it there, I would say two things.
a. If I should not debate it there because it is not what the OP of that thread was about, then you also should not debate there things that are not relevant to the OP, which you did repeatedly (unless you think I have that obligation but you do not, in which case I would ask for a reason for the difference between your obligations regarding the OP and yours).
b. Now, whether I should refrain from debating something not in the OP depends, I think, on factors such as what the thread actually is - more than what it originally was - about, what the person I'm trying to engage in debate has said, and so on. In particular, in that thread you claimed that there is an afterlife - which was clearly not about whether it's OK (or obligatory, or whatever) for atheists to lie, etc. -, and furtheremore, made negative claims and/or implications about those of us who - also in posts disagreeing with yours - claimed that we do know that there is an afterlife. On the basis of that, I think it is just okay for me to reply in context, as the discussion was being allowed.

Third, regardless of who might be correct about b. above, while this is not your thread, the posts I replied to are some of your posts. If you choose to post things that are OT, at least I have no obligation not to respond to your posts in a thread to which they have been moved (I think it was okay to reply in the other thread, but even if I'm wrong about that, it's still okay for me to reply here).


Lion IRC said:
No need to explain. I don't want to debate an anti-afterlife fundy.
I am not an anti-afterlife fundy. I am a person who knows that there is no afterlife, even if you fail to realize that. Again, I did not intend to reply to your posts originally, but you persuaded me to do otherwise with your disparaging comments (which are also false and unwarranted, even though I grant that you do not know that), so I replied, and as I said, I may (and might) choose to keep doing so.


Lion IRC said:
I've heard more than enough absence-of-evidence = evidence of absence fallacies and argued about what is and isn't evidence enough to know that once you've made up your mind it's sufficient.
First, I actually did give an argument.
Second, "sufficient" for what?
It is obvious that you will neither be persuaded by me, nor persuade me. The debate is for readers.

Lion IRC said:
Now, now. You just got stung by the pot/kettle accusation.
You are dogmatically sticking to your beliefs about the non-existence of the soul/afterlife.
That's cool.
Embrace it. Don't apologise.
That is false and unwarranted. I already provided a conclusive argument against an afterlife. But if you want to counterargument, I challenge you to do so.

Lion IRC said:
Your claim to "know" stuff about a topic for which atheists vociferously claim there is NO EVIDENCE.
That is false. Some atheists claim so. Other atheists do not claim so. I definitely do not claim so, as you should know by now, and should have known when you replied to me above.

Lion IRC said:
Well, if there's no evidence, then you don't have any either.
Well, of course, but since I have been saying that there is plenty of evidence, that is not a reasonable objection. If you want to challenge my evidence, please do, but that's another matter.

Moreover, this is not about evidence alone, at least not in the sense of empirical evidence, or even empirical evidence + reasoning. It's also about priors. When the prior is astronomically slow and there is no evidence, then the rational assessment remains that the chances are astronomically low. This, however, is not the case, as there is plenty of evidence, so we do not even need the astronomically slim prior.
 
Rational, accurate, non-threatening conclusion based on everyday, mundane observations with some additional parenthetical commentary.
I think the source of the issue is "I know there is no afterlife". The more reasonable statement is "There is no reason to believe there is an afterlife.*

* - it needs to be noted that being expected to disprove a negative is an indication the person demanding as such doesn't understand how this sort of stuff works"

And honestly, with all the crying and mourning Christians make with for their dead loved ones, we really need to ask just how much do they actually believe in Heaven.

I disagree. Would you say "I know the Moon isn't made from cheese", or would you equivocate and say "there is no reason to believe that the Moon is made from cheese"?

Which would you say if confronted by someone who was convinced that the Moon is made from cheese? What if they wanted to get taxpayer funding to set up a Stilton mine in the Mare Tranquilitatus? What if they had already obtained substantial taxpayer funding and government assistance for their scheme?

Equivocation on the vanishingly small difference between "there's no reason to believe the frankly crazy idea you are promoting" vs "your crazy idea is not true" just encourages the loonies. We should avoid it - one of the greatest failures of science communication is scientific reluctance to make absolute statements, even when they are warranted.

The probability of an afterlife, based on our current scientific understandings, is rather lower than that of the selenotyroic hypothesis (an afterlife would require that the Standard Model be wrong to an impossible degree; while the selenotyroic hypothesis doesn't contradict any fundamental physics). Both should be described by reasonable people in non-technical conversation as "impossible".
 
Speaking of lying to children, "Is there a Santa Claus?"

Some people say that telling a child that Santa Claus exists is real is outright lying. Others say it is harmless fun that makes Christmas more magical (whatever that means.)

So, question for the room. True or False:

There is no reason to think that Santa Claus isn't real.
 
Rational, accurate, non-threatening conclusion based on everyday, mundane observations with some additional parenthetical commentary.
I think the source of the issue is "I know there is no afterlife". The more reasonable statement is "There is no reason to believe there is an afterlife.*

* - it needs to be noted that being expected to disprove a negative is an indication the person demanding as such doesn't understand how this sort of stuff works"

And honestly, with all the crying and mourning Christians make with for their dead loved ones, we really need to ask just how much do they actually believe in Heaven.

I disagree. Would you say "I know the Moon isn't made from cheese", or would you equivocate and say "there is no reason to believe that the Moon is made from cheese"?
Probably needs a little work then. I feel the analogy isn't complete as we both know what the Moon and cheese is. We've been observing the moon for millennia, have even been to it (It was nice, but a bit cold... by the lake).

The after-life is a completely unobserved concept. Maybe the statement would be better considered as "There is no reason to consider the afterlife."
 
Speaking of lying to children, "Is there a Santa Claus?"

Some people say that telling a child that Santa Claus exists is real is outright lying. Others say it is harmless fun that makes Christmas more magical (whatever that means.)

So, question for the room. True or False:

There is no reason to think that Santa Claus isn't real.
My daughter sat in Santa's lap. She also received the gift she asked from him. Santa is like prayer that actually works.
 
Speaking of lying to children, "Is there a Santa Claus?"

Some people say that telling a child that Santa Claus exists is real is outright lying. Others say it is harmless fun that makes Christmas more magical (whatever that means.)

So, question for the room. True or False:

There is no reason to think that Santa Claus isn't real.

Perhaps he even rides a sleigh made of Stilton cheese mined on the moon, you know, because we really can't know if Santa does or doesn't.

Can you imagine what life would be like if people had to use Lion's line of argument? We would never be able to say that anything is as it appears but that it is only likely? Dr Seuss would have to rewrite all his books. That little birdie asking everything "Are you my mother?" would never find its mother. We could never be sure what food is or if we got dressed that morning, or if a dog is a dog and not a hippopotamus. The sky might actually be a basketball.

Afterlifers have strange minds. Whoops! Can't say that. I mean it appears that they have strange minds and it only appears that the sky isn't a basketball and it only appears that a dog isn't a cat and .... Soooooooooo interesting the religious mind.
 
I am quoting this reply from page one, and asking [MENTION=1236]Lion IRC[/MENTION] to actually answer it, with logical appropriate comparisons. This is a well constructed, thoughtful answer to you, Lion.

So far Lion has dodged, and hid and obfuscated and deflected to avoid discussing it. Lion has been asked to present comparable evidence for why he thinks the afterlife does exist. He has been unable to come up with a single sentence in defense of his claim. Not one sentence about a single piece of evidence that supports the existence of an afterlife.

This post shows a great deal of evidence for no afterlife, and Lion has been unable to even comment directly on it.


This is why it is inaccurate to make a claim that "both sides are dognmatic." The pro-afterlife faction has zero evidence, the other side clearly demonstrates what evidence would look like and notes its lack.

It is therefore quite appropriate to "know" that afterlife does not exist, to the same degree of certainty that we "know" gravity exists and we "know" our planet orbits the sun.


Lion - here is your moment. Can you present any evidence whatsoever, as Angra has done, in defense of your position?
(or will you continue to dodge, hide and deflect by shouting, "squirrel!" ?)


Lion IRC, this is a reply to your "dogmatic" claim.

The information I found in support of the afterlife consists in claims of near death experiences and out of body experiences, plus religious claims and philosophical arguments. The arguments are really poor, and the empirical evidence does very little to support the claim, so it barely raises its probability. On the other hand, the evidence against the afterlife is overwhelming:

First, I see that there are movies, TV shows and generally works of fiction in which the evidence for the afterlife is indeed very strong (when needed, modified to avoid continuity problems, which we may do in order to consider a hypothetical scenario). For example, there are ghosts that appear to some of the main characters – or to all – and who communicate real information, or move things, possess people, and so on. Clearly, that’s a lot of evidence. There could be counter-evidence within the stories, but at least, a lot of things are found that support strongly an afterlife. If I were to observe that in the real world, I would definitely give an afterlife a far higher probability than I do. But I do not see any of that at all. What I see is claims of “near death experiences” which do little in the way of supporting the afterlife.

Second, there are also movies, TV shows, etc., in which evidence of an afterlife might be weaker than the previous one, but still, there is good evidence that human consciousness goes on without attachment to a particular brain. For example, spells that make two people “swap bodies”, or something like that. Now, that’s of course not as good as the previous list, but it’s something suggesting an afterlife at least, and definitely would block the counter-evidence I will list below. But again, I see nothing of the sort in the real world.

Third, what I see is this: when humans suffers different damage to different parts of the brain, they lose some mental abilities, properties, etc. For example, old people often suffer serious degradation to their capacity to reason, form new memories, learn new things. Other brain injuries can cause memory loss – even massive memory loss -, as well as a loss of the capacity to form new memories. They can also cause (depending on the injury) a loss of the ability to speak, or – again – to reason. They can also result in the loss of pain or the capacity to feel it, or to fear, and so on. Of course, injuries to the brain also can cause the loss of the ability to process sensory input, resulting in blindness, loss of hearing, and so on.
Now, different sorts of damage to the brain – temporary like with certain drugs, or permanent – also cause specific changes in moods, in what a person wants to do, in how calm or angry they are, etc.
It did not have to be like that, by the way. I might have found that when the brain is damaged – blow to the head, aging, disease -, the mind loses the ability to control it, perhaps sensory information, etc., but without losing anything else, certainly not consciousness, but also not things like the ability to reason, or fear, or memories, or any of the above. And of course, I could have found that people swap bodies with some spells. But no, that’s not remotely what I found.
Given the above, once all of the brain is destroyed, I reckon that no person is left – it’s all gone.
But what about phenomenal consciousness?
However, that is not left, either. There are excellent reasons to think that’s gone too. For example, we can see that some brain injuries – easily, a blow to the head – result in loss of consciousness, even if in those cases temporary. Destroy the whole brain, and it’s pretty obvious that nothing is left, especially given the rest of the above evidence.
Moreover, that’s not really the point: if some sort of phenomenal consciousness were left, there would still be no afterlife, since the person would have ceased to exist, and what would remain in that scenario would be something else, but not that person – nor, for that matter, a person at all.
This is not an argument against panpsychism, by the way. Even if, say, after a human dies, each of the gazillion particles left has some tiny part of mind, a phenomenal consciousness of sorts, that is no afterlife of course.


So, in short, there is no afterlife – human afterlife, that is, but the same holds for all other animals of course, even if some of the pieces of evidence are somewhat less direct in such cases.

Of course, it does not logically follow from any of the above that there is no afterlife. But for that matter, it does not follow from any piece of information at my disposal that, say, the Moon Landing ever happened, or that World War I happened, or that humans and fruit flies have a common ancestor, or that the Moon will still be orbiting the Earth next month, or that...well, anything about the world around me. Yet I know all of those things and many others, so clearly the fact that it does not follow from the information at my disposal would not be a serious objection.

I have encountered another, puzzling objection, which says that all of the things I mention only say that damage to the brain during life damages or affects the mind, but it says nothing about what happens after death. That is a confused objection. Of course, if I want to make an assessment about what will happen to a human mind, I have to look at the information that is available and make an assessment based on it. And of course, I might well have found good evidence of an afterlife and no counter-evidence (see examples above), but that is not what I found.

Now, of course, someone might come up with a specific description of an afterlife that is consistent and immune to the above: for example, one might describe a scenario in which a human mind is gradually or quickly deteriorating with age and disease, etc. - as it really happens – and then after the whole brain is destroyed, consciousness continues, and it’s the same consciousness not another one – e. g., the “body swap” happens only after death, and the person goes to an immortal body or whatever. However, if someone includes all of that in their hypothesis, they make it extremely improbable just as first, rather than after considering the evidence. For that matter, a defense attorney in a criminal case might say that even after the prosecutor presented all sorts of pieces of evidence, she has provided not even a tiny speck of evidence against the hypothesis that his client was framed by a powerful superintelligent extraterrestrial artificial intelligence that wanted to plant exactly the pieces of evidence found by the prosecutor, for such-and-such reasons (reasons the defense attorney can consistently make up). Well, if the defense attorney comes up with a sufficiently smart story, sure, the defense attorney has failed to provide evidence against that hypothesis. But that of course in no way prevents her from establishing the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.

In short, on the basis of the above evidence – plus specific debunking of specific religions when needed, but that would be beyond the scope of this short piece -, I reckon the afterlife does not exist – and further, I reckon I know that the afterlife does not exist.
 
That’s an interesting reaction. You are pouncing on something that you think is a “gotcha” quote that you state you will use in burden of proof discussions.

But I think you lack understanding of what ron is saying. Maybe I can help you, so that you don’t make a fool of yourself later.
The only thing I would pick on is that Ron stated 1/infinity, which isn't near zero, it is zero as far as mathematics go.

Here’s the thing. There is NO proof of a god. There is abundant proof that all the claims about god by other humans can indeed be disproven. The only thing about a god that cannot be definitively disproven is that one exists who has no interaction with life on earth whatsoever, leaving it functionally non-existant as far as life and life’s decisions go.
Yep, the Blind Watchmaker can no more be disproved or proved, any more than one could prove we don't live in a Matrix world where we are batteries.

Either way, I prefer my 3 amigos: possible, plausible, and probable. Lion tosses in the word "assert" in the opening post, which is more of an absolute phrasing. But depending on kids age, I wouldn't get into splitting hairs on truisms, but it would be fair game to answer one's younger kids question of 'is there a fundy god', as simply 'no' as the fundy god is not possible (unless it is also a deceiver).

PS 'fundy' could also be 'God-breathed Bible God'
 
The only thing I would pick on is that Ron stated 1/infinity, which isn't near zero, it is zero as far as mathematics go.



Not quite. To be pedantic infinity is not defined as a number, so 1/infinity has no numerical meaning.

It is written as the limit as x goes to infinity for 1/x is zero. It is an asymptote, it approaches zero but never gets there.

lim x --> inf (1/x) = 0

Whither we take the term to be zero or not depends on problem at hand and the size of x.
 
The only thing I would pick on is that Ron stated 1/infinity, which isn't near zero, it is zero as far as mathematics go.



Not quite. To be pedantic infinity is not defined as a number, so 1/infinity has no numerical meaning.

It is written as the limit as x goes to infinity for 1/x is zero. It is an asymptote, it approaches zero but never gets there.

lim x --> inf (1/x) = 0

Whither we take the term to be zero or not depends on problem at hand and the size of x.
Uh, yeah its a limit function...I flipped a bit, I should have said as far language goes it is zero. IMO 1/infinity is well beyond "true/false beyond a reasonable doubt" language wise...
 
Back
Top Bottom