Is there no penalty for harms caused by government official lawbreaking? Any lawyers here?

[Axulus]

So with the human rights abuses and criminal behavior we saw happen over the weekend in clear violation of the 5th Amendment and in violation of the statute itself, among other things, I'm not understanding why there are no penalties for blantant lawbreaking.

The pattern seems to be:
1. Ignore law or come up with frivolous interpretation of law
2. Break law
3. Court issues injunction
4. Make up new authority/sham legal argument to break law again
5. Repeat

So could Trump just start ordering the murder of people and keep at it until some court issued a TRO, "stop that behavior until a court can properly review this", and then simply start up again using a brand new legal justification, and not suffer any consequences? Setting the immunity argument aside for Trump himself, are there no penalties/consequences to the people who obey the orders?

This wouldn't be openly defying a court order it would seem, as the TROs are always limited in scope.

I don't understand why there is no penalty for breaking the law itself regardless of whether a TRO was issued or not? If at the end of the day a court determines someone broke the law, there should be personal consequences of that, of varying degrees based on the severity of the lawbreaking.

Seems like the system is broken whether Trump complies with court orders or not.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Seems like the system is broken whether Trump complies with court orders or not.

the system is “broken” to the extent that it relies on the integrity of individuals within the system to work properly.

But any system that didn’t would likely just be a dictatorship.

 

[Elixir]

Trump can start knocking off SCROTUS Justices if he wants. What are they gonna do about it?
He can send seal team six after that philanthropist guy … Soros - or anyone else. As long as he CLAIMS it’s an “official act” who’s gonna stop him?

 

[Axulus]

Trump can start knocking off SCROTUS Justices if he wants. What are they gonna do about it?
He can send seal team six after that philanthropist guy … Soros - or anyone else. As long as he CLAIMS it’s an “official act” who’s gonna stop him?

And his legal team can declare them a national security threat and claim they thought they had legal justification for it. "Whoopsie, we didn't?" Or "Any judge who says we didn't is a radical leftist lunatic,", and they could presumably keep murdering more federal court judges until some other judge came in and issued a TRO to stop. Wouldn't even get hit with contempt of court so long as they complied after the order was issued.

Seal Team 6 would not suffer any consequences either. I mean we had Rubio, Stephen Miller, Tom Homan and Ice Agents, among others, part of a conspiracy to human traffic people into slavery and ignoring the 5th amendment to the constitution in the process and they will be getting off scot free, right?

 

[Elixir]

Trump can start knocking off SCROTUS Justices if he wants. What are they gonna do about it?
He can send seal team six after that philanthropist guy … Soros - or anyone else. As long as he CLAIMS it’s an “official act” who’s gonna stop him?

And his legal team can declare them a national security threat and claim they thought they had legal justification for it. "Whoopsie, we didn't?" Or "Any judge who says we didn't is a radical leftist lunatic,"

Seal Team 6 would not suffer any consequences either. I mean we had Rubio, Stephen Miller, Tom Homan and Ice Agents, among others, part of a conspiracy to human traffic people into slavery and ignoring the 5th amendment to the constitution in the process and they will be getting off scot free, right?

All that and so much more.

 

[Axulus]

So this is why it seems like blue states MUST step up and prosecute violations of state law by federal officials, for any violations that occur within their borders. Why has this idea not gained any traction? It seems imparative that they try. I can see no other legal solution.

 

[Elixir]

So this is why it seems like blue states MUST step up and prosecute violations of state law by federal officials, for any violations that occur within their borders. Why has this idea not gained any traction? It seems imparative that they try. I can see no other legal solution.

At the end of the day what are they gonna do? Get the Governor to send the National Guard up against the US Military?
The Governor will fall out the nearest window. He might do that just for threatening to defy the king.

 

[Axulus]

So this is why it seems like blue states MUST step up and prosecute violations of state law by federal officials, for any violations that occur within their borders. Why has this idea not gained any traction? It seems imparative that they try. I can see no other legal solution.

At the end of the day what are they gonna do? Get the Governor to send the National Guard up against the US Military?
The Governor will fall out the nearest window. He might do that just for threatening to defy the king.

I'm also being told by an attorney on blue sky that judges would toss the cases immediately, as the Supremacy Clause would protect them.

 

[Axulus]

So from what I gather, all the judicary can do effectively is issue stop orders. They must stop specific illegal actions and maybe order a remedy. So long as the orders are complied with they can literally do anything up until the point a judge says they need to stop, and then there will be zero legal consequences for the past lawbreaking so long as they stop at that point forward.

And congress won't impeach.

We are definitely in a defacto dictatorship no matter how anyone wants to spin it.

 

[Shadowy Man]

We are definitely in a defacto dictatorship no matter how anyone wants to spin it.

you mean it wasn’t just “on day one”??

 

[TV and credit cards]

If a court order is ignored, a criminal contempt order is issued. It is the Federal Marshal's responsibility to execute the order. The Attorney General can tell the marshal to ignore the criminal contempt order. If they do the judge can issue a civil contempt order and deputize whomever they see fit to execute it. The executive has no pardon power to stop a civil contempt charge.

“If a party can make himself a judge of the validity of orders which have been issued, and by his own act of disobedience set them aside, then are the courts impotent, and what the Constitution now fittingly calls ‘the judicial power of the United States’ would be a mere mockery.”

In this case, "party" is defined as President Dickhead.

 

[dannyk]

Just read this on hypothetical situations where Judges could independent of the executive branch and DOJ enforce a contempt ruling if needed.

If the Marshals Go Rogue, Courts Have Other Ways to Enforce their Orders

Opinion | Even a rogue marshal’s service is not an insurmountable obstacle to courts enforcing the rule of law.

www.democracydocket.com

The article seems to miss though that Congress could just then pass changes to the criminal and civil rules of procedure to again remove the courts ability to enforce through independant means...

Where would a dispute about that end up - Supreme Court? But that follows the rules of procedure so it seems to me it's Congress that's key to holding the President to account.....Thoughts?

 

[Elixir]

Just read this on hypothetical situations where Judges could independent of the executive branch and DOJ enforce a contempt ruling if needed.

If the Marshals Go Rogue, Courts Have Other Ways to Enforce their Orders

Opinion | Even a rogue marshal’s service is not an insurmountable obstacle to courts enforcing the rule of law.

www.democracydocket.com

The article seems to miss though that Congress could just then pass changes to the criminal and civil rules of procedure to again remove the courts ability to enforce through independant means...

Where would a dispute about that end up - Supreme Court? But that follows the rules of procedure so it seems to me it's Congress that's key to holding the President to account.....Thoughts?

All I know is that in the weeks, months or years it would take to resolve the issue, a rogue administration like the Cheato junta would keep right on with their crimes, destroying everything that might bring them to account.

IOW we are fucked.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trump can start knocking off SCROTUS Justices if he wants. What are they gonna do about it?
He can send seal team six after that philanthropist guy … Soros - or anyone else. As long as he CLAIMS it’s an “official act” who’s gonna stop him?

And his legal team can declare them a national security threat and claim they thought they had legal justification for it. "Whoopsie, we didn't?" Or "Any judge who says we didn't is a radical leftist lunatic,", and they could presumably keep murdering more federal court judges until some other judge came in and issued a TRO to stop. Wouldn't even get hit with contempt of court so long as they complied after the order was issued.

Seal Team 6 would not suffer any consequences either. I mean we had Rubio, Stephen Miller, Tom Homan and Ice Agents, among others, part of a conspiracy to human traffic people into slavery and ignoring the 5th amendment to the constitution in the process and they will be getting off scot free, right?

My guess is they all already have pardon papers given to them.