Is your boss demanding hand shakes unreasonable?

[DrZoidberg]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45207086

A Swedish Muslim woman refuses handshake at job interview, doesn't get the job, sues wins case. A fucking disgrace.

Worse is that Swedish law is on the side of the employer. It was EU human rights laws that gave her right in the end.

According to Swedish law any other law trumps respecting religion. But according to EU human rights laws religion is protected.

I hope somebody starts a religion that mandates that you have to have sex with all the women you meet, and then sue for discrimination when denied. My opinion, if you can't even set your religion aside for a moment when you're at a job interview, then perhaps you didn't want that job anyway. So what are they whining about?

 

[ruby sparks]

Ok this is bound to get messy (because this sort of thing is nuanced) but......if she didn't get the job (or a fair shot at it, in other words if her interview was cut short) because of refusing to handshake, then I would agree with the court decision in principle.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Okay, I see both sides here, I can see her winning, and in general, the award was particularly small because the grievance was very minor, presuming the slight was based on handshake. I'd make an argument that unless it can be demonstrated that her religion impacted the hiring decision, the reward should have been even smaller... to create the case as a notice so that employers understand the social custom.

This should be one of those reminder cases and not something that becomes a norm.

 

[Keith&Co.]

My opinion, if you can't even set your religion aside for a moment when you're at a job interview,

Set your religion aside?

I can agree with not taking your god to work if you're researching science or history. Or writing textbooks for any place outside of Texas. You don't put your religious beliefs into the products of a secular job. But you don't stop being a Christain or a muslim or an atheist while you're working.

If her job as an interpreter wouldn't require touching people, why should she set her religious strictures aside for the purpose of getting that job?

If you were at a job interview, and they handed you a wren to sacrifice to Apollo, so they could read the entrails before hiring you, would you set your atheism aside and cooperate?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Imagine going to a country and applying for a job, and they don't hire you because you don't shake legs with the boss. Yeah, imagine in that country, shaking legs is the cultural norm but so is respecting diversity. Does shaking legs have anything to do with qualifications of the job? Maybe if you're a car salesman... other than that, it's highly cultural. The practice is on-par with other different cultural practices like bowing, curtseying, ... we're not talking about cutting off hands here, so one practice is not better than the other.

 

[ruby sparks]

This has to be posted (yet again):

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_jzDGv0KKw[/YOUTUBE]

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ok this is bound to get messy (because this sort of thing is nuanced) but......if she didn't get the job (or a fair shot at it, in other words if her interview was cut short) because of refusing to handshake, then I would agree with the court decision in principle.

Why? What's your arguments for?

A handshake is a pretty low bar to cross for a job. I'm thinking about Christian nurses who refuse to assist with abortions. Ok, fine. No, problem. You can't be a nurse. Find another job.

 

[ruby sparks]

Ok this is bound to get messy (because this sort of thing is nuanced) but......if she didn't get the job (or a fair shot at it, in other words if her interview was cut short) because of refusing to handshake, then I would agree with the court decision in principle.

Why? What's your arguments for?

In a nutshell, I feel I should similarly not be denied a job as an interpreter just because I don't kiss the interviewer on both cheeks. On their face I mean.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ok this is bound to get messy (because this sort of thing is nuanced) but......if she didn't get the job (or a fair shot at it, in other words if her interview was cut short) because of refusing to handshake, then I would agree with the court decision in principle.

Why? What's your arguments for?

A handshake is a pretty low bar to cross for a job. I'm thinking about Christian nurses who refuse to assist with abortions. Ok, fine. No, problem. You can't be a nurse. Find another job.

No one should be hired (not hired) or fired (not fired) over a simple cultural custom.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Imagine going to a country and applying for a job, and they don't hire you because you don't shake legs with the boss. Yeah, imagine in that country, shaking legs is the cultural norm but so is respecting diversity. Does shaking legs have anything to do with qualifications of the job? Maybe if you're a car salesman... other than that, it's highly cultural. The practice is on-par with other different cultural practices like bowing, curtseying, ... we're not talking about cutting off hands here, so one practice is not better than the other.

If it's a cultural norm, then just fucking do it. If you don't, you're being a dick.

I remember when going to a hamam in Turkey. I was cheerfully walking around naked, dick swining proudly, in the showers wondering about all the wierdos showering in their underwear. When the Turkish girl I was dating explained to me that it's considered rude to be naked in the showers. I felt bad, because I make a point of respecting local customs. Excuse me if I think that people who don't think like that are bad people.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok this is bound to get messy (because this sort of thing is nuanced) but......if she didn't get the job (or a fair shot at it, in other words if her interview was cut short) because of refusing to handshake, then I would agree with the court decision in principle.

Why? What's your arguments for?

In a nutshell, I feel I should similarly not be denied a job as an interpreter just because I don't kiss the interviewer on both cheeks. On their face I mean.

But that's the norm is loads of cultures. In those cultures I think it's perfectly acceptable to fire anybody that won't.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If it's a cultural norm, then just fucking do it. If you don't, you're being a dick.

Why is the cultural norm of handshaking more important than the cultural norm of not touching men you're not married to?

 

[DrZoidberg]

If it's a cultural norm, then just fucking do it. If you don't, you're being a dick.

Why is the cultural norm of handshaking more important than the cultural norm of not touching men you're not married to?

It has to do with social competence. Humans have vast arrays of various tacit ways to signal the giving of respect, or that everything is fine. They're very culture and context sensitive. If you don't follow those norms you'll cause unnecessary friction. People will have to put effort and energy into figuring out that nothing is wrong with her, it's just her thing.

Socially competent people try their best to put other people at ease. Dicks like to wave their specialness around and demand that others adapt to suit them. I wouldn't want to hire a person like that.

 

[ZiprHead]

If you were at a job interview, and they handed you a wren to sacrifice to Apollo, so they could read the entrails before hiring you, would you set your atheism aside and cooperate?

I would. Do you know how impolite wrens are?

 

[Elixir]

My opinion, if you can't even set your religion aside for a moment when you're at a job interview,

Set your religion aside?

Heh., While I sympathize with the views of Dr. Z, I have to tell him - that's not how it works - that's not how any of this works. You don't "set aside" that which controls not only your life, but your afterlife as well. It is SO important that if it tells you to blow yourself up along with a bunch of innocent others, you just DO IT. The repercussion of failing a job interview doesn't even rise to the level of a bump in the road of TROO Belief (you fucking infidel!)

 

[TSwizzle]

Good for her. It's about time the practice of handshaking was done away with. Who wants to shake someones hand, goodness knows what germs are on it.

 

[ruby sparks]

But that's the norm is loads of cultures. In those cultures I think it's perfectly acceptable to fire anybody that won't.

I never had you down as an out and out extremist. Just goes to show that even I can make mistakes. Lol.

 

[DrZoidberg]

My opinion, if you can't even set your religion aside for a moment when you're at a job interview,

Set your religion aside?

I can agree with not taking your god to work if you're researching science or history. Or writing textbooks for any place outside of Texas. You don't put your religious beliefs into the products of a secular job. But you don't stop being a Christain or a muslim or an atheist while you're working.

Sorry, but I don't see what the big deal is? We have no problem asking smokers to refrain from smoking in certain areas. I personally don't see religion any different than any other hobby. Even though a stamp collector only loves to discuss stamps, he can certainly give it a rest for a job interview. There's nothing special about religion, and we shouldn't treat it as such.

If her job as an interpreter wouldn't require touching people, why should she set her religious strictures aside for the purpose of getting that job?

Clearly that was required of her. My job requires me to wear clothes, even though I could do it just fine naked. I don't get all bent out of shape because of it. Not all social rules make sense.

If you were at a job interview, and they handed you a wren to sacrifice to Apollo, so they could read the entrails before hiring you, would you set your atheism aside and cooperate?

I'm an atheist, not a vegan. I wouldn't hesitate.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Sorry, but I don't see what the big deal is? We have no problem asking smokers to refrain from smoking in certain areas.

I personally don't see religion any different than any other hobby.

But we don't restrict smoking because it's a hobby we don't share., we restrict smoking because WE find it offensive.
SHE finds touching other men offensive. Why shouldn't she have the same rights as a non-smoker?

Clearly that was required of her.

But that seems to be part of the interview, not part of the job. is it required for the job? MUST it be required for the job?

If it IS required for the job, then it's no longer a question of cultural norms, it's a requirement.
If you're arguing about cultural norms, then it's not a job requirement, it's the interviewer taking offense at someone else's culture.

 

[Elixir]

Sorry, but I don't see what the big deal is?

So I was right:

that's not how it works - that's not how any of this works. You don't "set aside" that which controls not only your life, but your afterlife as well. It is SO important that if it tells you to blow yourself up along with a bunch of innocent others, you just DO IT.

 

[laughing dog]

Sorry, but I don't see what the big deal is?

Then why are you making a big deal out of this?

We have no problem asking smokers to refrain from smoking in certain areas.

2nd hand smoke is a health risk to many people - not shaking hands of the opposite sex is not. In fact, shaking hands is a potential health risk (small, but there) as TSwizzle points out.