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Islam just can't stand images of Mohammed

The guy wrote a few years back the following answering exactly the same question:

For those who want to make this about Muslims and not Islam, here are some of my thoughts on that:

First, my name is Bosch and I’m a recovered Muslim, so I have some insight into this, coupled with the fact that I studied Islam as if my life depended on it after 9/11.

There is Islam and there are Muslims. Muslims who take Islam seriously are at war with us and Muslims who don’t aren’t. But that doesn’t mean we should consider these reluctant Muslims allies against Jihad. I’ve been around Muslims my entire life and most of them truly don’t care about Islam. The problem I have with many of these essentially non-Muslim Muslims, especially in the middle of this war being waged on us by their more consistent co-religionists, is that they give the enemy cover. They force us to play a game of Muslim Roulette since we can’t tell which Muslim is going to blow himself up until he does. And their indifference about the evil being committed in the name of their religion is a big reason why their reputation is where it is.

So while I understand that most Muslims are not at war with us, they’ve proven in their silence and inaction against jihad that they’re not on our side either, and there’s nothing we can say or do to change that. We just have to finally accept it and stop expecting them to come around, while doing our best to kill those who are trying to kill us.

While he's clearly not liberal by any stretch of imagination, and does consider that we are waging a war against Islam, he's clearly making a distinction between muslims who in his view follow Islam, and ones who don't.

Did you even read your own article, Jayjay? Just a few paragraphs past what you quoted, he starts rambling about a bunch of stealth jihad bullshit, suggesting that moderate Muslims may just be telling us what we want to hear and can't be trusted:

Objectively good human beings, who identify themselves as Muslim, give Islam a good face, one far better then it deserves. This only gives us a false impression about what it is we’re facing, with just another excuse not to face it. And this leads to our acceptance into our culture of stealth jihadists who have figured out how to say what we want to hear, while they scheme behind the scenes to further Islamize the West.

In other words, he's full of shit. He's acknowledging that there are some Muslims out there who are OK, but then immediately qualifies that by saying they're enablers, and really aren't Muslims anyway. Then he backpedals even further by saying that the "good ones" may also working secretly to destroy Western civilization from the inside and thus can't really be trusted. So, far from being some trump card to shut me up, your link verifies exactly what I've been saying all along: he has a problem with Muslims in general.

EDIT: I missed this bit

Muslims who really care about Islam are part of an organized effort to spread Islam, and I sometimes refer to this collective effort by Muslims as “Organized Islam.” No matter the means involved, Muslims working towards a more Islamic world want the same thing the jihadists want. This organized effort includes Mosques, Muslim organizations, Muslim individuals writing books, blog posts, etc. And they all invariably engage in anti-Western, Anti-Israeli propaganda, at the very least.

What he's saying is, any Muslim engaged in efforts to spread Islam in any way, or really any Muslims involved in any sort of Muslim organizations or activities, are a threat to the West and furthering the interests of the jihadists.

So basically, Jayjay, the content of your own article completely demolishes this "distinction" you're trying to give him credit for. It doesn't exist. It's meaningless bullshit meant to shield him from criticism, that evaporates when you listen to what he actually believes.

I can go dig up articles from Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and countless other rabid Islamophobes who claim that their problem isn't with all Muslims. They all fucking claim that, because they want to sound more credible than they actually are. Racists and anti-Semites do the same thing. Some of them even claim most are OK. But once you listen to their actual rhetoric when they get on the warpath, or how they talk when they're not worried about PR, you get a much clearer view, and this guy isn't any different.

Since you obviously spent time Googling for this, maybe you should have spent some of that time reading his actual blog, or the quotes from it which I posted like two days ago:

"When Muslims aren't butchering us, they're butchering the English language, which is fitting since their prophet was illiterate and the koran is illiterature. I can almost hear Muslims screaming, "We Will Butcher The English Language!" I found this picture of "moderate" Muslims, praising "Hitlor" & calling for another "Hollow Cost" on Facebook."

Yeah, he clearly has no problem with ordinary, moderate Muslims:

And with that, Oxford becomes less Western and more Islamic. While jihadists wage literal war on the civilized world, "Moderate" Muslims pressure Non-Islamic institutions to become more Islamic- incremental step by incremental step- and gutless Westerners are always ready to submit. This must be fought Every Step of the Way. Help me spread this post and its graphic wherever you can.

"While the civilized world commemorates the Holocaust, "the Muslim world" celebrates the Holocaust, denies the Holocaust and threatens a new Holocaust."

The cartoon caricature of savage Mohammed with hitler moustache represents the former.

Actually, no:

"As to why I give Mohammad a Hitler mustache - Growing up among Muslims, it was not uncommon to hear Hitler being spoken of in glowing terms. No doubt because of the hardcore anti-semitism inherent in both Islam and Nazism, and so within Mohammad and Hitler."

Hell, even the website you pulled this from has other stuff from Fawstin which gives us a much more honest picture of what he thinks.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/thomas-lifson/former-muslim-bosch-fawstin-sounding-the-alarm/

Islam is submission. Islam is death and destruction. Islam is here to control. Islam is here to make life on earth hell.

In this interview, as well as an interview (7 min) last month on a program called The Flipside, Fawstin spoke of how he was raised in a so-called “moderate” Muslim family – a family where Hitler was greatly admired.


Asked whether there is such a thing as moderate Islam, Fawstin said: “No. There is only Islam. Islam is immoderate by nature.”

...

Fawstin talks about how Muslims dread contact with anything related to pigs, noting that if he had an airline he would have all the seats covered with pigskin leather, making it the safest airline flying.

Like I said, he's full of shit, but you're lapping it up like it's honey. And let's review some of his actual artwork again:

View attachment 2919

I'm sure if someone drew a picture of Judaism being beheaded, people here would be making excuses and saying the artist isn't actually a bigot. Right?

View attachment 2926

Look familiar? Does this vaguely resemble another drawing you've seen recently? Now who do you think this is supposed to represent?

Now, by all means, Jayjay, go ahead and explain to me how this one is only directed at the extremists and not average, ordinary folk:

View attachment 2923

No one on this forum would be objecting to me claiming that someone hated all Jews, or all blacks, if they spoke of and drew them in this manner, just because they claimed in an article somewhere that some of them are OK.

Details like "excessive body hair" is hardly the same as crooked noses for Jews or ape-like features and thick lips for African Americans... it's more like drawing a Jew with sidelocks or a kippah.

With a sword in his hand, shrieking like an ape. Which is how he generally portrays Muslims, meaning it's just as disingenuous to pretend the Muhammad cartoon is saying nothing about Muslims as it would be in the Jew or black examples.

So, like folks here are saying, the interpretatin that the Mohammed in his cartoon is all muslims is clearly not founded in his own words. It's in your own head.

Incorrect. And no one would be arguing with my "interpretation" were we talking about any group other than Muslims.

Of course you don't have to agree with his dim view of Islam or his warmongering (arkirk made a good point a few pages back that despite what we think of Islam, provocation is not going to be a very efficient method of combating it), but there is basically no difference between him expressing his opinion of Mohammed and his followers, and your expressing yours about Geller and her followers.

No. And what you posted doesn't even come remotely close to bearing this out. The very best you can hope to argue is that he merely allows that some Muslims don't fit his bigoted caricature. But that's the same bullshit all Islamophobes fall back on to try to shield themselves from criticism. He thinks moderate Islam doesn't exist, routinely smears moderate Muslims as at the very best enablers of "true" Muslims, who, yes, are in his eyes violent, ape-like Nazis, and who he's portrayed as such.

And to reiterate: no one on this forum would be objecting to me claiming that someone hated all Jews, or all blacks, if they spoke of and drew them in this manner, just because they claimed in an article somewhere that some of them are OK.

So nice try, but my point stands. The guy hates Muslims in general, same as Geller et al, and the same as virulent anti-Semites and racists hate Jews and blacks, even if they begrudgingly acknowledge that "not all of them are bad." And his artwork, including the Muhammad piece, reflect his beliefs about them. Which is why it's pretty fucked up that "liberals" are promoting it and giving him free publicity.
 
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Moses was a murderous, ruthless invader who instructed his followers to kill babies and enslave the little virgin girls. Does that mean it okay to depict Jews as murderous baby-killers who rape little girls, seeing as how they respect Moses so much?

If not, why not? And why does that not apply to Muslims who respect Mohammed?

Give it your best shot. I promise not to kill you over your Moses cartoons.

Is that a yes, it's okay to depict Jews as ruthless invaders who murder babies and rape little girls?
 
Some more stuff I pulled off of this dickhead's blog, and Twitter feed, where he regularly refers to Muslims as "scumuslims:"

https://twitter.com/boschfawstin/status/552827773811572737

This 1's for Charlie Hebdo. Scumuslims murdered a Dozen of its people, including its publisher & lead cartoonist.

B6wJ7cRCIAA6w6p.jpg

https://twitter.com/boschfawstin/status/516080257648971776

As is Always the case, non-observant Muslims r praying that the murderer in Canada is not a Scumuslim. Zero concern for victims, only Islam.

Yeah, Jayjay, sounds like he thinks the "good" Muslims are upright, model citizens.

https://twitter.com/boschfawstin/status/516080257648971776

Breitbart writer Kristin Tate describes Scumuslim who beheaded the woman in Oklahoma as having "converted to radical Islam". No, just Islam.

But hey, hey! It's OK, he doesn't all mean ALL Muslims when he says "scumuslims," just like racist websites don't mean ALL black people when they link to news stories about drug busts/robberies and refer to the perpetrators as "chimps." He just means the Muslims who don't fit his narrow and ignorant view of what a "good" Muslim is allowed to be (ie not a Muslim at all).

I'm sure people on this forum would accept this logic if we were talking about any other group of people.

Here's some more great, biting social commentary:

G4Z0ONR.png

Just slap a star of David on there and replace those cities with the names of Palestinian villages, and I'm sure no one would detect any anti-Semitic undertones there, right?

PrRgQfx.png

Of course...

eKPaQnb.png

Can never trust em, can you?

As for "moderate" Muslims:

Here's the most damning proof yet that I've found for why I've referred to mosques -particularly Saudi-funded mosques- as enemy outposts.

His source? Allen fucking West, citing Steve Emerson, the guy who claimed Birmingham is a "no-go" zone. And he also cites JihadWatch, Robert Spencer's hate site, which in turn cites a bogus study by a known white supremacist alleging that 80 percent of U.S. mosques are "radical."

And I haven't even touched on his myriad associations, praise for and working relationships with people like Geller, Spencer, Geert Wilders, some of the most repugnant anti-Muslim shitbags currently in the public domain.

But yes, Jayjay, he clearly has no problem with Muslims as a group, and none of us should even suspect it since he claims not to. And all this is just in my head.

Give me a fucking break, dude.
 
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Is that a yes, it's okay to depict Jews as ruthless invaders who murder babies and rape little girls?

What do you mean by 'okay'? If by 'okay', you mean

i) The government should not outlaw it; and
ii) People should not get murdered for doing it

Then yes, it's 'okay'.
 
[
Is that a yes, it's okay to depict Jews as ruthless invaders who murder babies and rape little girls?

What do you mean by 'okay'? If by 'okay', you mean

i) The government should not outlaw it; and
ii) People should not get murdered for doing it

Then yes, it's 'okay'.

I agree with you that it should not be outlawed and people should not be murdered for it, but that's not what I was getting at.

PyramidHead said "If Muslims didn't want to be associated with the awful person they "(mostly) unanimously respect to some degree", isn't the onus on them to stop (mostly) unanimously respecting him to some degree? Or modify their opinion of him to the point where the cartoons no longer apply to them?"

I am asking if a double standard is being applied here. Jews respect Moses. They call him a prophet and believe he was given messages by God to pass along to them, just as Muslims respect Mohammed, think he was a prophet, and believe he was given similar messages to pass along by the same deity. So if it is the case that respecting a prophet means you can be smeared with the worst of the wrongs that prophet committed, it follows that Jews can be portrayed as people who support murdering babies and raping little girls, because if they didn't support it they would renounce Moses and everything he said, right?

Do you support the criticism of Jews based on what their prophets did? Would you support the depiction of all Jews everywhere as modern-day Joshuas, covered in the blood of babies as they slay all that breathe in the West Bank villages they conquer? Or would you think that crosses the line between opinion and hate-mongering?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it should be censored, and most certainly not met with violence. But I am wondering about the "I don't see anything wrong with that cartoon" crowd. If the artist portrayed Jews as Moses-type characters stabbing a baby, would they still have the same response?

ETA: Any fans of Monster Mohel want to chime in?
 
What do you mean by 'okay'? If by 'okay', you mean

i) The government should not outlaw it; and
ii) People should not get murdered for doing it

Then yes, it's 'okay'.

I agree with you that it should not be outlawed and people should not be murdered for it, but that's not what I was getting at.

PyramidHead said "If Muslims didn't want to be associated with the awful person they "(mostly) unanimously respect to some degree", isn't the onus on them to stop (mostly) unanimously respecting him to some degree? Or modify their opinion of him to the point where the cartoons no longer apply to them?"

I am asking if a double standard is being applied here. Jews respect Moses. They call him a prophet and believe he was given messages by God to pass along to them, just as Muslims respect Mohammed, think he was a prophet, and believe he was given similar messages to pass along by the same deity. So if it is the case that respecting a prophet means you can be smeared with the worst of the wrongs that prophet committed, it follows that Jews can be portrayed as people who support murdering babies and raping little girls, because if they didn't support it they would renounce Moses and everything he said, right?

Do you support the criticism of Jews based on what their prophets did? Would you support the depiction of Jews as modern-day Joshuas, covered in the blood of babies as they slay all that breathe in the West Bank villages they conquer? Or would you think that crosses the line between criticism and hate-mongering?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it should be censored, and most certainly not met with violence. But I am wondering about the "I don't see anything wrong with that cartoon" crowd. If the cartoon depicted Jews as Moses stabbing a baby, would they still have the same response?

Again, it all depends on what you mean by 'support'. I don't 'support' ridiculing people for harmless beliefs, any more than I support children being teased in the playground.

In fact, I do think the "Mohammed was a pedophile warlord" shtick is overplayed (and I myself have been guilty of this) as if the other practises and beliefs of Muslims weren't enough to condemn Islam.

Being ridiculed probably never changed anyone's mind, but then, neither did being silent ever change anyone's mind.

No-one would give a shit about drawing Mohammed if there weren't extremists willing to murder people for doing it. As soon as you allow extremists to de facto outlaw something, you are living under the extremists' thumb.
 
Did you even read your own article, Jayjay? Just a few paragraphs past what you quoted, he starts rambling about a bunch of stealth jihad bullshit, suggesting that moderate Muslims may just be telling us what we want to hear and can't be trusted:

Objectively good human beings, who identify themselves as Muslim, give Islam a good face, one far better then it deserves. This only gives us a false impression about what it is we’re facing, with just another excuse not to face it. And this leads to our acceptance into our culture of stealth jihadists who have figured out how to say what we want to hear, while they scheme behind the scenes to further Islamize the West.

In other words, he's full of shit. He's acknowledging that there are some Muslims out there who are OK, but then immediately qualifies that by saying they're enablers, and really aren't Muslims anyway.
Exactly. He makes a rough distinction between enablers and the jihadists. The self-identified muslims who he thinks are not actually following what he considers to be real Islam, he doesn't lump with the angry Mohammed caricature., which is the entire point. And the "stealth jihadists" referred to above still belong to the jihadist category, not the enablers.

The issue here is interpretation of his Mohammed cartoon, and your entire basis for deducing that it symbolizes all muslims is based on nothing but your own bigotry and prejudice. You can't fathom the notion that a person like Fawstin could be capable of making a distinction between criticising an idea, and harboring a deep-seated hatred of all muslims and Arabs as people. You are entitled to your opinion, but keep in mind that someone without your prejudice and preconceived notions would make a different interpretation and see that the Mohammed caricature is not targeted at them personally, but those who'd actually kill to stop the artist from drawing him.

Then he backpedals even further by saying that the "good ones" may also working secretly to destroy Western civilization from the inside and thus can't really be trusted. So, far from being some trump card to shut me up, your link verifies exactly what I've been saying all along: he has a problem with Muslims in general.

EDIT: I missed this bit

Muslims who really care about Islam are part of an organized effort to spread Islam, and I sometimes refer to this collective effort by Muslims as “Organized Islam.” No matter the means involved, Muslims working towards a more Islamic world want the same thing the jihadists want. This organized effort includes Mosques, Muslim organizations, Muslim individuals writing books, blog posts, etc. And they all invariably engage in anti-Western, Anti-Israeli propaganda, at the very least.

What he's saying is, any Muslim engaged in efforts to spread Islam in any way, or really any Muslims involved in any sort of Muslim organizations or activities, are a threat to the West and furthering the interests of the jihadists.

So basically, Jayjay, the content of your own article completely demolishes this "distinction" you're trying to give him credit for. It doesn't exist. It's meaningless bullshit meant to shield him from criticism, that evaporates when you listen to what he actually believes.
For someone who tends to chastise anyone who disagrees with you for lack of reading comprension and basic logic skills, you'd do well to brush up on your own. Clearly the above paragraph refers to organized efforts to spread Islam (which he thinks is a despicable ideology), not the regular people and their daily activities. It's a critique of an idea, and efforts to spread that idea, not a critique of the people as your comparisons to hypothetical "kill all the niggers" would suggest.

I can go dig up articles from Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and countless other rabid Islamophobes who claim that their problem isn't with all Muslims. They all fucking claim that, because they want to sound more credible than they actually are. Racists and anti-Semites do the same thing. Some of them even claim most are OK. But once you listen to their actual rhetoric when they get on the warpath, or how they talk when they're not worried about PR, you get a much clearer view, and this guy isn't any different.

Since you obviously spent time Googling for this, maybe you should have spent some of that time reading his actual blog, or the quotes from it which I posted like two days ago:
I did, and it's clear that he does seem to fit the stereotype of American right-wing anti-Islamist. I'm not denying that or pretending that he's some sort of examplary moral or intellectual authority. The issue here is his cartoon, and the sentiment it displays: for even a casual reader (as many others in the thread have pointed out) the target is only those who'd be ready to kill cartoonists for drawing Mohammed. Someone who is not, should have no reason to be offended.

The cartoon caricature of savage Mohammed with hitler moustache represents the former.

Actually, no:

"As to why I give Mohammad a Hitler mustache - Growing up among Muslims, it was not uncommon to hear Hitler being spoken of in glowing terms. No doubt because of the hardcore anti-semitism inherent in both Islam and Nazism, and so within Mohammad and Hitler."

Hell, even the website you pulled this from has other stuff from Fawstin which gives us a much more honest picture of what he thinks.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/thomas-lifson/former-muslim-bosch-fawstin-sounding-the-alarm/

Islam is submission. Islam is death and destruction. Islam is here to control. Islam is here to make life on earth hell.

In this interview, as well as an interview (7 min) last month on a program called The Flipside, Fawstin spoke of how he was raised in a so-called “moderate” Muslim family – a family where Hitler was greatly admired.


Asked whether there is such a thing as moderate Islam, Fawstin said: “No. There is only Islam. Islam is immoderate by nature.”
This is criticising Islam as an ideology. Not muslims or Arabs as people.

Like I said, he's full of shit, but you're lapping it up like it's honey. And let's review some of his actual artwork again:

View attachment 2919

I'm sure if someone drew a picture of Judaism being beheaded, people here would be making excuses and saying the artist isn't actually a bigot. Right?
Irrelevant, because I am not saying that Fawstin is not a bigot. But if someone did do a drawing replacing "Islam" with "Judaism", and "Jihad" with "Zionism" (which would be in my opinion a reasonable parallel given current dynamics in Israel), it'd be about as tasteless but still clearly making a point about religion, politics and ideology rather than people.

Now, by all means, Jayjay, go ahead and explain to me how this one is only directed at the extremists and not average, ordinary folk:

View attachment 2923

No one on this forum would be objecting to me claiming that someone hated all Jews, or all blacks, if they spoke of and drew them in this manner, just because they claimed in an article somewhere that some of them are OK.
If you've read any threads here or elsewhere about Palestinian situation, you'd see that this is a common stereotype. It's still a negative stereotype of course, but I don't see the racial aspect in the cartoon as much as the political.

Details like "excessive body hair" is hardly the same as crooked noses for Jews or ape-like features and thick lips for African Americans... it's more like drawing a Jew with sidelocks or a kippah.

With a sword in his hand, shrieking like an ape. Which is how he generally portrays Muslims, meaning it's just as disingenuous to pretend the Muhammad cartoon is saying nothing about Muslims as it would be in the Jew or black examples.
If you had read comic books, you'd notice the likeness to Wolverine (including the odd turban that resembles his mask, making it clear that the resemblance was intentional), who's an angry, hairy Canadian. Sure he's depicted as an angry person, but it doesn't strike me as particularly apelike or devolved in a racial way.

Of course you don't have to agree with his dim view of Islam or his warmongering (arkirk made a good point a few pages back that despite what we think of Islam, provocation is not going to be a very efficient method of combating it), but there is basically no difference between him expressing his opinion of Mohammed and his followers, and your expressing yours about Geller and her followers.

No. And what you posted doesn't even come remotely close to bearing this out. The very best you can hope to argue is that he merely allows that some Muslims don't fit his bigoted caricature. But that's the same bullshit all Islamophobes fall back on to try to shield themselves from criticism. He thinks moderate Islam doesn't exist, routinely smears moderate Muslims as at the very best enablers of "true" Muslims, who, yes, are in his eyes violent, ape-like Nazis, and who he's portrayed as such.
He probably thinks moderate muslims indeed are enablers, and nazi sympathizers, that's true. But this cartoon does feature a "moderate" muslims as an enabler or a sympathizer in it... the only two characters are the mad Mohammed and the cartoonist. Why should anyone who doesn't see himself as an angry Mohammed be in any way offended? Some of the other cartoons from his blog would be much better examples of that, but this one isn't.

And to reiterate: no one on this forum would be objecting to me claiming that someone hated all Jews, or all blacks, if they spoke of and drew them in this manner, just because they claimed in an article somewhere that some of them are OK.

So nice try, but my point stands. The guy hates Muslims in general, same as Geller et al, and the same as virulent anti-Semites and racists hate Jews and blacks, even if they begrudgingly acknowledge that "not all of them are bad." And his artwork, including the Muhammad piece, reflect his beliefs about them. Which is why it's pretty fucked up that "liberals" are promoting it and giving him free publicity.
Is it bigotry, if you are bigoted against bigots?
 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it should be censored, and most certainly not met with violence. But I am wondering about the "I don't see anything wrong with that cartoon" crowd. If the artist portrayed Jews as Moses-type characters stabbing a baby, would they still have the same response?
It depends. If there was some sort of current event where Jewish extremists were involved in stabbing babies, the connotation might make sense.
 
Exactly. He makes a rough distinction between enablers and the jihadists. The self-identified muslims who he thinks are not actually following what he considers to be real Islam, he doesn't lump with the angry Mohammed caricature., which is the entire point. And the "stealth jihadists" referred to above still belong to the jihadist category, not the enablers.

You're grasping at straws here, Jayjay.

The distinction you are pointing to is meaningless. If someone were claiming that any Jew who goes to a synagogue, participates in the Jewish community, or practices their faith in any way, is a bad person and is a direct threat to Western civilization, not a single fucking person here would object to me saying that they hate Jews.

The issue here is interpretation of his Mohammed cartoon, and your entire basis for deducing that it symbolizes all muslims is based on nothing but your own bigotry and prejudice.

No. And your article doesn't prove this. It supports my position. You just didn't read it carefully enough.

For someone who tends to chastise anyone who disagrees with you for lack of reading comprension and basic logic skills, you'd do well to brush up on your own. Clearly the above paragraph refers to organized efforts to spread Islam (which he thinks is a despicable ideology), not the regular people and their daily activities. It's a critique of an idea, and efforts to spread that idea, not a critique of the people as your comparisons to hypothetical "kill all the niggers" would suggest.

He isn't talking about the ideology, he's talking about the people. Again, you didn't fucking read, and it's coming back to bite you in the ass. Here's the paragraph again:

Muslims who really care about Islam are part of an organized effort to spread Islam, and I sometimes refer to this collective effort by Muslims as “Organized Islam.” No matter the means involved, Muslims working towards a more Islamic world want the same thing the jihadists want. This organized effort includes Mosques, Muslim organizations, Muslim individuals writing books, blog posts, etc. And they all invariably engage in anti-Western, Anti-Israeli propaganda, at the very least.

The bolded segments can only reasonably be inferred to speak directly to Muslims themselves and their motivations. He is saying that the Muslims who do these things - really any practicing Muslim - want to destroy Western civilization. So I repeat: If someone were claiming that any Jew who goes to a synagogue, participates in the Jewish community, or practices their faith in any way, is a bad person and is a direct threat to Western civilization, not a single fucking person here would object to me saying that they hate Jews.

You should probably just walk away from this one now, Jayjay, because it's only going to get worse.

I did, and it's clear that he does seem to fit the stereotype of American right-wing anti-Islamist. I'm not denying that or pretending that he's some sort of examplary moral or intellectual authority. The issue here is his cartoon, and the sentiment it displays: for even a casual reader (as many others in the thread have pointed out) the target is only those who'd be ready to kill cartoonists for drawing Mohammed. Someone who is not, should have no reason to be offended.

Were he speaking about Jews, blacks, or anyone else like this, and there were easily detectable anti-Semitic or racial undertones in his drawing, nobody would be arguing with me that the drawing is trying to say something about Jews and blacks.

This is criticising Islam as an ideology. Not muslims or Arabs as people.

"Judaism is death. It's death, destruction and annihilation. I grew up around Jews and it wasn't uncommon to see them stealing, lying and deceiving, which is why I draw Moses as a money grubbing primate.

And since Jews hate pork, I say we should start putting it on our money, that way they won't touch it. It'll end bank fraud and ponzi schemes overnight."

Give me a motherfucking break, Jayjay.

Irrelevant, because I am not saying that Fawstin is not a bigot.

So then why are you even here? What the fuck are you arguing with me about this for?

If you've read any threads here or elsewhere about Palestinian situation, you'd see that this is a common stereotype. It's still a negative stereotype of course, but I don't see the racial aspect in the cartoon as much as the political.

Yeah, nothing about that possibly suggests that he lumps ordinary folk together with wrongdoers. Except, you know, that that's exactly what he's doing.

If you had read comic books, you'd notice the likeness to Wolverine (including the odd turban that resembles his mask, making it clear that the resemblance was intentional), who's an angry, hairy Canadian. Sure he's depicted as an angry person, but it doesn't strike me as particularly apelike or devolved in a racial way.

So, you respond to my charge that he is portraying Muslims as animalistic, by claiming that he modeled them after "an angry Canadian" who has animalistic features. Right.

It's a clearly offensive and degrading portrayal. And it's not just about Muhammad, because he's bigoted against Muslims in general, as we've seen, and he regularly portrays them in a similar manner. And there's also the Hitler mustache, which he plainly states is a statement on the beliefs of Muslims, removing any doubt that the drawing isn't just about Muhammad.

He probably thinks moderate muslims indeed are enablers, and nazi sympathizers, that's true.

So in other words, what I originally said was right, what you said was wrong, and there's no reason for us to continue this discussion.

Is it bigotry, if you are bigoted against bigots?

What the fuck are you talking about?

Let's recap, Jayjay:

You told me that my belief that this Fawstin dick is bigoted against Muslims and projecting that into the drawing is baseless and "in my own head." And yet

- You've just acknowledged that he is, in fact, a bigot
- Your own article states that the only Muslims he considers even potentially decent people are those who don't practice their faith at all; the rest are all trying to destroy Western civilization
- Even the nonobservant Muslims he views as lacking any moral integrity
- He regularly posts fearmongering rants about Muslims, including moderates, "butchering us" and trying to destroy our way of life from within
- He refers to Muslims as "scumuslims" and mosques as "enemy outposts"
- He conflates terrorists with ordinary Muslims, as with the Palestine drawing
- Claims that Islam in general is evil, destructive, a threat to us all, and that anyone who practices it is part of that threat
- He quite often portrays Muslims generally in exactly the same way he portrays Muhammad - ape-like (or "animalistic" if you prefer), and he openly admits that the Hitler mustache is meant to portray the beliefs of "moderate" Muslims, not Muhammad
- He's just generally a piece of shit, and no one here would be defending him or anything he says were he talking about any group other than Muslims.

So, please, Jayjay, tell me again that I'm being totally unfair by accusing him of being bigoted against Muslims, and that all of his artwork about Islam, including the Muhammad drawing, is a reflection of that and not something liberals ought to be promoting. And then tell me with a straight face that you or anyone would be saying a fucking word in his defense if we took "Muslims" out of the above and replaced it with "Jews" or "blacks."
 
You can't tar this piece of artwork based on the other stuff the artist has done.

Evaluate it on it's own--and it's brilliant.

I think this so-called artist has pretty much defined himself with a long standing stream of anti Muslim hate cartoons. His past does count when his present matches up with his past. He has not stopped making hate literature.

You can argue the artist is a racist scumbag.

That doesn't make every piece of art he made racist.

I don't like some of the other examples of his work that were posted but this one is brilliant.

- - - Updated - - -

If Muslims didn't want to be associated with the awful person they "(mostly) unanimously respect to some degree", isn't the onus on them to stop (mostly) unanimously respecting him to some degree? Or modify their opinion of him to the point where the cartoons no longer apply to them?

Moses was a murderous, ruthless invader who instructed his followers to kill babies and enslave the little virgin girls. Does that mean it okay to depict Jews as murderous baby-killers who rape little girls, seeing as how they respect Moses so much?

If not, why not? And why does that not apply to Muslims who respect Mohammed?

It's no excuse to depict Jews that way--but if you want to draw a cartoon about Moses killing babies go ahead.
 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it should be censored, and most certainly not met with violence. But I am wondering about the "I don't see anything wrong with that cartoon" crowd. If the artist portrayed Jews as Moses-type characters stabbing a baby, would they still have the same response?
It depends. If there was some sort of current event where Jewish extremists were involved in stabbing babies, the connotation might make sense.

I haven't yet seen the cartoon so I don't know how it will make me feel.

It may make me delighted by its wit, make me despise him, make me feel he has landed on some biting social point. It may make me laugh, cry, or even weep to be in the presence of such genius.

At this point all I'm willing to represent is I won't kill him for it.
 
That doesn't make every piece of art he made racist.

I find the subhuman depiction of Muhammad to be troublesome at face value, and ditto the Hitler mustache. But worse than that, the artist has often portrayed Muslims generally as subhuman, and he has stated that the Hitler mustache is commentary on what ordinary Muslims believe.

So, yes, the picture is anti-Muslim, just like a drawing of Obama as an ape is anti-black, and a picture of Netanyahu with a hook nose rubbing his hands together is anti-Jew. It is illustrating the artist's beliefs about Muslims generally, not just Muhammad.

If that isn't clear to anyone by taking the drawing at face value, the quotes and drawings I've produced make it clear beyond any shadow of a doubt. They also make it clear that the guy, overall, is a fucking bigot who hates Muslims. And for so-called "progressives" to be praising him and promoting his work is inexcusable. The rest of this discussion is just circular bullshit that misses the actual point.
 
That doesn't make every piece of art he made racist.

I find the subhuman depiction of Muhammad to be troublesome at face value, and ditto the Hitler mustache. But worse than that, the artist has often portrayed Muslims generally as subhuman, and he has stated that the Hitler mustache is commentary on what ordinary Muslims believe.

So, yes, the picture is anti-Muslim, just like a drawing of Obama as an ape is anti-black, and a picture of Netanyahu with a hook nose rubbing his hands together is anti-Jew. It is illustrating the artist's beliefs about Muslims generally, not just Muhammad.

If that isn't clear to anyone by taking the drawing at face value, the quotes and drawings I've produced make it clear beyond any shadow of a doubt. They also make it clear that the guy, overall, is a fucking bigot who hates Muslims. And for so-called "progressives" to be praising him and promoting his work is inexcusable. The rest of this discussion is just circular bullshit that misses the actual point.

You are still trying to tar one piece of art based on what else the artist has done. That's not valid.
 
You are still trying to tar one piece of art based on what else the artist has done. That's not valid.

You obviously didn't read a single word of what I actually wrote. But that's not surprising as that's been happening for about 20 pages now.
 
I find the subhuman depiction of Muhammad to be troublesome at face value, and ditto the Hitler mustache. But worse than that, the artist has often portrayed Muslims generally as subhuman, and he has stated that the Hitler mustache is commentary on what ordinary Muslims believe.

So, yes, the picture is anti-Muslim, just like a drawing of Obama as an ape is anti-black, and a picture of Netanyahu with a hook nose rubbing his hands together is anti-Jew. It is illustrating the artist's beliefs about Muslims generally, not just Muhammad.

If that isn't clear to anyone by taking the drawing at face value, the quotes and drawings I've produced make it clear beyond any shadow of a doubt. They also make it clear that the guy, overall, is a fucking bigot who hates Muslims. And for so-called "progressives" to be praising him and promoting his work is inexcusable. The rest of this discussion is just circular bullshit that misses the actual point.

You are still trying to tar one piece of art based on what else the artist has done. That's not valid.

You are still trying to tar one piece of art based on what else the artist has done. That's not valid.

You obviously didn't read a single word of what I actually wrote. But that's not surprising as that's been happening for about 20 pages now.

Note the bolded part of your original message. You're tarring this artwork with his other artwork.
 
You are still trying to tar one piece of art based on what else the artist has done. That's not valid.

You are still trying to tar one piece of art based on what else the artist has done. That's not valid.

You obviously didn't read a single word of what I actually wrote. But that's not surprising as that's been happening for about 20 pages now.

Note the bolded part of your original message. You're tarring this artwork with his other artwork.

"This artwork" is part of a continuous flow of anti Muslim propaganda.
 
There's plenty to be anti Muslim about isn't there! How about the fact that despite they making up around 20% of the planets population, more than 90% of terrorist attacks are by this death cult and their extreme followers!
 
There's plenty to be anti Muslim about isn't there! How about the fact that despite they making up around 20% of the planets population, more than 90% of terrorist attacks are by this death cult and their extreme followers!
Do you have a link to the source for your statistics?
 
There's plenty to be anti Muslim about isn't there! How about the fact that despite they making up around 20% of the planets population, more than 90% of terrorist attacks are by this death cult and their extreme followers!
Do you have a link to the source for your statistics?

Well, just four groups -- ISIS, Boko Haram, the Taliban, and al-Qaida -- are responsible for 2/3 of 18,000 terrorist-related deaths in 2013.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...m-main-cause-of-terrorism-according-to-report
 
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