Israel freezes Palestinian tax funds in retaliation for joining ICC

[Jayjay]

The reason for the fighting has nothing to do with whether it is war.

And the war started before Israel even existed, you can't blame Israel's actions for it. The fundamental cause is the existence of a non-Muslim government on land they considered conquered.

Or could it be the existence of a strictly Jewish state in lands taken from Muslims? It depends on who you are how you think about it. Surely the current situation in Israel is unacceptable to people who believe in human rights for all kinds of people...even Muslims.

The majority of the people in that land wanted it to be a Jewish state.

No, they didn't. We've gone through the demographics issue several times already. The early state of Israel was only majority Jewish because the Jews ethnically cleansed 700,000 Arabs from their midst, and before that the UN-proposed Jewish state borders were gerrymandered to create a narrowly Jewish-majority state, without bothering to ask the opinion of Arabs living there at all.

No matter which way you look at it, there was no demographic justification for establishing Israel.

What international law, treaty or agreement section gives the gov't of Israel the legal right to withhold payment of its obligations? Either Abbas violated some agreement somewhere and the gov't of Israel is within its rights to withhold these payments or Abbas did not and the gov't of Israel is not within its rights. It really is that simple.

What international law, treaty or agreement section imposes any obligation to a country to pay money to a country they are at war with?

Were they not at war with PA before it sought to join ICC?

 

[arkirk]

Just for a second, imagine you were born today in Gaza. What do you have to live for? Will you reach the ripe old age of 2? Someone or something is maintaining and keeping these conditions in Gaza. It is Israel. It is really that simple...an occupier with overwhelming force imposing inhuman conditions at will. If we are humanists, we cannot look at this any other way. Loren's tit for tat stuff doesn't apply to children, women, or even grown men who desperately need a reason to stay alive. I strongly support the BDS movement and resent the fact my government helps these conditions continue. Is what happened in Gaza an expression of Judaism? I think it does not matter whose expression it is, it should be made to stop and Netanyahu should stand trial in the ICC.

 

[laughing dog]

What international law, treaty or agreement section gives the gov't of Israel the legal right to withhold payment of its obligations? Either Abbas violated some agreement somewhere and the gov't of Israel is within its rights to withhold these payments or Abbas did not and the gov't of Israel is not within its rights. It really is that simple.

What international law, treaty or agreement section imposes any obligation to a country to pay money to a country they are at war with?

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

 

[untermensche]

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

Since Israel treats the Palestinians so brutally, and has for decades, one can either condemn this behavior or pretend it is part of some war and necessary.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just for a second, imagine you were born today in Gaza. What do you have to live for? Will you reach the ripe old age of 2? Someone or something is maintaining and keeping these conditions in Gaza. It is Israel. It is really that simple...an occupier with overwhelming force imposing inhuman conditions at will. If we are humanists, we cannot look at this any other way. Loren's tit for tat stuff doesn't apply to children, women, or even grown men who desperately need a reason to stay alive. I strongly support the BDS movement and resent the fact my government helps these conditions continue. Is what happened in Gaza an expression of Judaism? I think it does not matter whose expression it is, it should be made to stop and Netanyahu should stand trial in the ICC.

Your life in Gaza will be pretty dismal because Hamas makes sure of that--if life isn't pretty dismal they won't be able to recruit cannon fodder.

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What international law, treaty or agreement section imposes any obligation to a country to pay money to a country they are at war with?

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

They currently aren't shooting. That doesn't mean it isn't a form of war.

 

[untermensche]

Your life in Gaza will be pretty dismal because Hamas makes sure of that--if life isn't pretty dismal they won't be able to recruit cannon fodder.

Hamas is there because of years of oppression.

It is the natural reaction to oppression.

We oppress until some crazed group arises that opposes the oppression. We even help that group along.

Then we claim the oppression is to deal with the crazed group we helped create.

Ingenious in it's deceit.

 

[laughing dog]

What international law, treaty or agreement section imposes any obligation to a country to pay money to a country they are at war with?

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

They currently aren't shooting. That doesn't mean it isn't a form of war.

But Israel was remitting the taxes prior to this, so apparently they were not at war. Even by your established standards, your excuse is very very very thin.

 

[Arctish]

What international law, treaty or agreement section imposes any obligation to a country to pay money to a country they are at war with?

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

Don't you know, ld, that Israel is allowed to steal money from the West Bank? Only it isn't really theft because the money is tax revenue from land that is going to be part of Israel at some point in the future, and anyway, the Palestinians would just use it to kill Jews.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your life in Gaza will be pretty dismal because Hamas makes sure of that--if life isn't pretty dismal they won't be able to recruit cannon fodder.

Hamas is there because of years of oppression.

It is the natural reaction to oppression.

We oppress until some crazed group arises that opposes the oppression. We even help that group along.

Then we claim the oppression is to deal with the crazed group we helped create.

Ingenious in it's deceit.

Keeping saying that doesn't make it true. Hamas is there because foreigners and other nations provide money to them.

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Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

They currently aren't shooting. That doesn't mean it isn't a form of war.

But Israel was remitting the taxes prior to this, so apparently they were not at war. Even by your established standards, your excuse is very very very thin.

You can have agreements with a nation you are at war with.

The Palestinian diplomatic moves break previous agreements with Israel, why should Israel be bound when the Palestinians are breaking their word?

 

[laughing dog]

You can have agreements with a nation you are at war with.

In what world do warring countries remit resources to one another?

The Palestinian diplomatic moves break previous agreements with Israel, why should Israel be bound when the Palestinians are breaking their word?

I asked earlier what agreements seeking ICC membership broke. Still no one had produced any evidence of these alleged previous agreements. Instead, we get nonsense about "war".

 

[Jayjay]

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

They currently aren't shooting. That doesn't mean it isn't a form of war.

But Israel was remitting the taxes prior to this, so apparently they were not at war. Even by your established standards, your excuse is very very very thin.

You can have agreements with a nation you are at war with.

The Palestinian diplomatic moves break previous agreements with Israel, why should Israel be bound when the Palestinians are breaking their word?

What agreement does joining ICC break exactly?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

They currently aren't shooting. That doesn't mean it isn't a form of war.

But Israel was remitting the taxes prior to this, so apparently they were not at war. Even by your established standards, your excuse is very very very thin.

You can have agreements with a nation you are at war with.

The Palestinian diplomatic moves break previous agreements with Israel, why should Israel be bound when the Palestinians are breaking their word?

What agreement does joining ICC break exactly?

I think it's Oslo. What's being broken is they agreed to work through a specific peace process and now they're bypassing it left and right because they want statehood without peace.

 

[laughing dog]

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

They currently aren't shooting. That doesn't mean it isn't a form of war.

But Israel was remitting the taxes prior to this, so apparently they were not at war. Even by your established standards, your excuse is very very very thin.

You can have agreements with a nation you are at war with.

The Palestinian diplomatic moves break previous agreements with Israel, why should Israel be bound when the Palestinians are breaking their word?

What agreement does joining ICC break exactly?

I think it's Oslo. What's being broken is they agreed to work through a specific peace process and now they're bypassing it left and right because they want statehood without peace.

Please show under what article in either  Oslo_I_Accord or  Oslo_II_Accord you believe supports your interpretation.

 

[arkirk]

Since Israel is not at war with the West Bank, what are you babbling about now?

They currently aren't shooting. That doesn't mean it isn't a form of war.

But Israel was remitting the taxes prior to this, so apparently they were not at war. Even by your established standards, your excuse is very very very thin.

You can have agreements with a nation you are at war with.

The Palestinian diplomatic moves break previous agreements with Israel, why should Israel be bound when the Palestinians are breaking their word?

What agreement does joining ICC break exactly?

I think it's Oslo. What's being broken is they agreed to work through a specific peace process and now they're bypassing it left and right because they want statehood without peace.

Come on, Loren! The atrocities Israel has perpetrated in Gaza are WAR CRIMES...ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN POPULATIONS. But then I guess you are right...only "losers" get prosecuted...at lease in any court you would approve.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They took credit for firing rockets at Israel.

No they did not.

The combination government will be violent.

That is something you cannot know, especially if Abbas remains in charge of that government and all indications suggest that he would. You may believe personally that Abbas' Palestinian authority cannot successfully reign in Hamas' militancy... but then, you've been claiming for years that Hamas should be able to reign in the smaller militant groups in the Gaza Strip if it chose to and you hold them responsible for failing to do so.

If the combination government isn't violent Hamas would just continue the violence anyway.

Which remains something you cannot know.

If you expect Hamas to be able to tame Islamic Jihad or the PFLP, why would Abbas be unable to do the same?

Of course he can't.

You have claimed again and again that Hamas is perfectly capable of reining in the smaller militant groups in Gaza. This appears to be a double standard on your part.

Any peace treaty would be fraud.

Is also something you cannot know. Moreover, Abbas' government has spent the last eight years proving you wrong.

You misunderstand. The Palestinians are basically puppets in this, not the instigators.

Which is the reason why they need to be represented by a sovereign government and not a loose affiliation of poorly recognized foreign interests pulling their collective strings from abroad. Peace is VERY much in the Palestinians' interests and it is something Abbas has worked towards relentlessly for nearly a decade.

So far you have given me ZERO reason to believe the Palestinian Authority isn't serious in its desire for peace. You have not and you cannot because that reason doesn't exist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Come on, Loren! The atrocities Israel has perpetrated in Gaza are WAR CRIMES...ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN POPULATIONS. But then I guess you are right...only "losers" get prosecuted...at lease in any court you would approve.

1) The ICC doesn't investigate war crimes.

2) It's not a war crime to hit a military target mixed in with civilians.

3) Your reply has noting to do with the topic of the thread anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You misunderstand. The Palestinians are basically puppets in this, not the instigators.

Which is the reason why they need to be represented by a sovereign government and not a loose affiliation of poorly recognized foreign interests pulling their collective strings from abroad. Peace is VERY much in the Palestinians' interests and it is something Abbas has worked towards relentlessly for nearly a decade.

So far you have given me ZERO reason to believe the Palestinian Authority isn't serious in its desire for peace. You have not and you cannot because that reason doesn't exist.

1) They've had plenty of opportunity to create a sovereign government. They don't want one.

2) Creating a government won't change the fundamental problem--the external money.

3) What's in the interest of the Palestinians and what's in the interest of Fatah and Hamas are very different things.

 

[Jarhyn]

Which is the reason why they need to be represented by a sovereign government and not a loose affiliation of poorly recognized foreign interests pulling their collective strings from abroad. Peace is VERY much in the Palestinians' interests and it is something Abbas has worked towards relentlessly for nearly a decade.

So far you have given me ZERO reason to believe the Palestinian Authority isn't serious in its desire for peace. You have not and you cannot because that reason doesn't exist.

1) They've had plenty of opportunity to create a sovereign government. They don't want one.

2) Creating a government won't change the fundamental problem--the external money.

3) What's in the interest of the Palestinians and what's in the interest of Fatah and Hamas are very different things.

Except those things are not different as far as sovereignty goes. We can worry about who is in charge of Palestine after they are guaranteed sovereignty. You are assuming that Hamas and Fatah will be violent and then deciding to punish all of Palestine for the perceived thought crime of hating Jews. I propose not prosecuting them until they actually have the means, desire, and resolve to do more than shooting the international equivalent of spitballs. You have provided no evidence that their anti-israel rhetoric is more than mere rhetoric and that they will not back down when they aren't being starved, invaded, bombed, and otherwise held down.

 

[laughing dog]

Still waiting for LP to substantiate his claim that PA is breaking the Oslo accords by seeking admittance to the ICC. I haven't even seen the gov't of Israel make that claim.

 

[untermensche]

2) It's not a war crime to hit a military target mixed in with civilians.

It might be a war crime or it may not.

Constant military incursions so you can maintain your oppression and continue to steal land is most definitely a crime.