Israel freezes Palestinian tax funds in retaliation for joining ICC

[Arctish]

Palestinians compromise? Are you serious or having a lend of me?

I'm serious.

Perhaps we're having one of those "two people divided by a common language" moments. Or perhaps you are being very anti-Semitic. Either way, the Palestinians have indicated their willingness to accept the 1967 borders as well as the theft of other land and resources, and illegal settlements remaining in place. What concessions are the Israelis willing to make?

 

[untermensche]

Crimes are not negotiating cards.

But Israel is mad with power. It has been abusing the Palestinians so long it thinks it is a god given right.

Strange how your side is unwilling to address this point. You want Israel to make concessions but don't ask anything of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are not conducting a brutal and illegal and immoral oppression of millions. They are not expanding into areas they have no legal right to expand into. They are not conducting an illegal blockade. They are not crushing the economy of millions forcing them to live is squalor.

One side is the oppressed and the other is the oppressor. It is only fanatical Jews and a few Americans that can't see that.

You don't ask the already oppressed to make concessions to end the oppression. You end it. If you have any human decency you end it or at least call for the end of it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But the Palestinians aren't expected to return the land they stole ("East Jerusalem"--really, just the part of Jerusalem they managed to seize and ethnically cleanse.)

The Palestinians are expected to compromise on Jerusalem. You expect it, I expect it, the Israelis and the US expect it, and the international community expects it. Good thing the Palestinians have already indicated their willingness to compromise, huh?

Now, what are the Israelis expected to compromise on (keeping in mind that returning stolen property isn't a compromise)?

[Citation needed]

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Palestinians compromise? Are you serious or having a lend of me?

I'm serious.

Perhaps we're having one of those "two people divided by a common language" moments. Or perhaps you are being very anti-Semitic. Either way, the Palestinians have indicated their willingness to accept the 1967 borders as well as the theft of other land and resources, and illegal settlements remaining in place. What concessions are the Israelis willing to make?

Or perhaps you aren't paying attention to what they are actually saying.

I haven't even heard this one about the Palestinians compromising on Jerusalem.

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Strange how your side is unwilling to address this point. You want Israel to make concessions but don't ask anything of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are not conducting a brutal and illegal and immoral oppression of millions. They are not expanding into areas they have no legal right to expand into. They are not conducting an illegal blockade. They are not crushing the economy of millions forcing them to live is squalor.

One side is the oppressed and the other is the oppressor. It is only fanatical Jews and a few Americans that can't see that.

You don't ask the already oppressed to make concessions to end the oppression. You end it. If you have any human decency you end it or at least call for the end of it.

Which side attacks the most?

(Hint: It's not Israel.)

 

[untermensche]

The Palestinians are not conducting a brutal and illegal and immoral oppression of millions. They are not expanding into areas they have no legal right to expand into. They are not conducting an illegal blockade. They are not crushing the economy of millions forcing them to live is squalor.

One side is the oppressed and the other is the oppressor. It is only fanatical Jews and a few Americans that can't see that.

You don't ask the already oppressed to make concessions to end the oppression. You end it. If you have any human decency you end it or at least call for the end of it.

Which side attacks the most?

(Hint: It's not Israel.)

Oppressors attack every second of every day with their oppression.

An illegal blockade is an attack. Suppression of economic activity is an attack. Periodic invasions are guess what, attacks.

Again, one side is the oppressor and one side is dealing with daily unrelenting oppression.

It takes many delusions to not see this.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which side attacks the most?

(Hint: It's not Israel.)

Oppressors attack every second of every day with their oppression.

An illegal blockade is an attack. Suppression of economic activity is an attack. Periodic invasions are guess what, attacks.

Again, one side is the oppressor and one side is dealing with daily unrelenting oppression.

It takes many delusions to not see this.

There's no illegal blockade.

As I said, the main cause of the Gaza economy is Hamas, not Israel. You're showing that Hamas is attacking Gaza--which is basically true.

 

[Arctish]

The Palestinians are expected to compromise on Jerusalem. You expect it, I expect it, the Israelis and the US expect it, and the international community expects it. Good thing the Palestinians have already indicated their willingness to compromise, huh?

Now, what are the Israelis expected to compromise on (keeping in mind that returning stolen property isn't a compromise)?

[Citation needed]

Answer to question needed.

Palestinians compromise? Are you serious or having a lend of me?

I'm serious.

Perhaps we're having one of those "two people divided by a common language" moments. Or perhaps you are being very anti-Semitic. Either way, the Palestinians have indicated their willingness to accept the 1967 borders as well as the theft of other land and resources, and illegal settlements remaining in place. What concessions are the Israelis willing to make?

Or perhaps you aren't paying attention to what they are actually saying.

I haven't even heard this one about the Palestinians compromising on Jerusalem.

Really??? You have never heard of the Palestinians offering to cede claims to West Jerusalem to Israel in exchange for a peace deal that upholds their rightful claim to East Jerusalem?

How strange. I've been reading about it for years.

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Strange how your side is unwilling to address this point. You want Israel to make concessions but don't ask anything of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are not conducting a brutal and illegal and immoral oppression of millions. They are not expanding into areas they have no legal right to expand into. They are not conducting an illegal blockade. They are not crushing the economy of millions forcing them to live is squalor.

One side is the oppressed and the other is the oppressor. It is only fanatical Jews and a few Americans that can't see that.

You don't ask the already oppressed to make concessions to end the oppression. You end it. If you have any human decency you end it or at least call for the end of it.

Which side attacks the most?

(Hint: It's not Israel.)

Actually it is Israel if you include ongoing oppression, theft of land and resources, and violating human rights as an attack. If you narrowly define attack as "cause things to blow up and people to die", it's still Israel. Of course, if you define "attack" as doing something Israel doesn't like, well I guess Palestinians living in any part of Eretz Yisrael are attacking.

 

[untermensche]

Oppressors attack every second of every day with their oppression.

An illegal blockade is an attack. Suppression of economic activity is an attack. Periodic invasions are guess what, attacks.

Again, one side is the oppressor and one side is dealing with daily unrelenting oppression.

It takes many delusions to not see this.

There's no illegal blockade.

As I said, the main cause of the Gaza economy is Hamas, not Israel. You're showing that Hamas is attacking Gaza--which is basically true.

The blockade is believed to be illegal by the whole world except Israel and a few gullible Americans, and as said, the crushing of the Palestinian economy began long before Hamas even existed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Really??? You have never heard of the Palestinians offering to cede claims to West Jerusalem to Israel in exchange for a peace deal that upholds their rightful claim to East Jerusalem?

How strange. I've been reading about it for years.

That's not what you were saying before.

"East Jerusalem" is simply part of Jerusalem that the Palestinians seized and ethnically cleansed. Why is this perfectly acceptable but any land Israel seized needs be returned.

Actually it is Israel if you include ongoing oppression, theft of land and resources, and violating human rights as an attack. If you narrowly define attack as "cause things to blow up and people to die", it's still Israel. Of course, if you define "attack" as doing something Israel doesn't like, well I guess Palestinians living in any part of Eretz Yisrael are attacking.

Oppression: Israel has no control in Palestinian areas. All they are doing is keeping out weapons.

Theft: The border hasn't changed in a decade.

Violating human rights: Exactly what are you referring to?

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There's no illegal blockade.

As I said, the main cause of the Gaza economy is Hamas, not Israel. You're showing that Hamas is attacking Gaza--which is basically true.

The blockade is believed to be illegal by the whole world except Israel and a few gullible Americans, and as said, the crushing of the Palestinian economy began long before Hamas even existed.

The blockade is widely believed to be illegal by those on the left with no understanding of the laws of war.

 

[untermensche]

The blockade is widely believed to be illegal by those on the left with no understanding of the laws of war.

I can't force reality into the minds of everyone.

But at least we can recognize one side is conducting a blockade and one side is the victim of a blockade.

One side is the oppressor and the other is being oppressed.

And it is not being oppressed by the entity fighting oppression. That entity only exists because of the oppression.

You can't claim the thing your oppression creates is the real oppressor.

 

[arkirk]

The blockade is widely believed to be illegal by those on the left with no understanding of the laws of war.

I can't force reality into the minds of everyone.

But at least we can recognize one side is conducting a blockade and one side is the victim of a blockade.

One side is the oppressor and the other is being oppressed.

And it is not being oppressed by the entity fighting oppression. That entity only exists because of the oppression.

You can't claim the thing your oppression creates is the real oppressor.

Laws that are just are only written to guarantee civil peace. There are no real "laws of war." When I read your post about lefty ignorance, of non-existent laws, it struck me how far off base you are. You speak of such things as if there was a cookbook formula for making war that was somehow legal. There are plenty of cookbooks for this but they are all used by the varied and sundry criminals that engage in it. And yes...Obama is over the line with drones. We are forced to live in this world with these criminals and when Loren suggests that any of them has any legitimacy in their acts of war, he validates them and makes his case for continued warfare till our race is no more.

Something I have noticed about Loren's "laws of war": They only empower the Jews in Palestine and only find fault and guilt with the original inhabitants of the area....the Palestinians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The blockade is widely believed to be illegal by those on the left with no understanding of the laws of war.

I can't force reality into the minds of everyone.

But at least we can recognize one side is conducting a blockade and one side is the victim of a blockade.

One side is the oppressor and the other is being oppressed.

And it is not being oppressed by the entity fighting oppression. That entity only exists because of the oppression.

You can't claim the thing your oppression creates is the real oppressor.

A blockade is a perfectly legal and common act of war. A de-facto state of war exists between Israel and Hamas. The blockade is legal.

In fact, it would be legal for Israel to not allow anything through. They're bending over backwards in allowing civilian goods through.

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Laws that are just are only written to guarantee civil peace. There are no real "laws of war." When I read your post about lefty ignorance, of non-existent laws, it struck me how far off base you are. You speak of such things as if there was a cookbook formula for making war that was somehow legal. There are plenty of cookbooks for this but they are all used by the varied and sundry criminals that engage in it. And yes...Obama is over the line with drones. We are forced to live in this world with these criminals and when Loren suggests that any of them has any legitimacy in their acts of war, he validates them and makes his case for continued warfare till our race is no more.

Something I have noticed about Loren's "laws of war": They only empower the Jews in Palestine and only find fault and guilt with the original inhabitants of the area....the Palestinians.

There's no enforcement body but the are commonly accepted standards of how to conduct war specifically aimed at minimizing the harm to non-combatants.

 

[untermensche]

A blockade is a perfectly legal and common act of war. A de-facto state of war exists between Israel and Hamas. The blockade is legal.

Israel chooses to call resistance to oppression and theft of land "war" and uses a blockade to crush resistance to oppression.

Israel creates a de-facto state of war because of decades of oppression that started before Hamas existed.

Hamas arises from oppression.

It is absurd to claim it is the cause of the oppression.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A blockade is a perfectly legal and common act of war. A de-facto state of war exists between Israel and Hamas. The blockade is legal.

Israel chooses to call resistance to oppression and theft of land "war" and uses a blockade to crush resistance to oppression.

Israel creates a de-facto state of war because of decades of oppression that started before Hamas existed.

Hamas arises from oppression.

It is absurd to claim it is the cause of the oppression.

The reason for the fighting has nothing to do with whether it is war.

And the war started before Israel even existed, you can't blame Israel's actions for it. The fundamental cause is the existence of a non-Muslim government on land they considered conquered.

 

[bilby]

Israel chooses to call resistance to oppression and theft of land "war" and uses a blockade to crush resistance to oppression.

Israel creates a de-facto state of war because of decades of oppression that started before Hamas existed.

Hamas arises from oppression.

It is absurd to claim it is the cause of the oppression.

The reason for the fighting has nothing to do with whether it is war.

And the war started before Israel even existed, you can't blame Israel's actions for it. The fundamental cause is the existence of a non-Muslim government on land they considered conquered their own.

People who lived there considered it their land. 'Conquest' is irrelevant.

Every piece of land in the world is governed by someone who took it from someone who considered it theirs.

And every piece of land in the world has been taken at some time by conquest; usually several times.

If the fundamental cause of strife in the Middle East was as you say it is, the whole planet would be a war-zone.

The US Government exists on land that the British considered conquered. But the British dominion of Canada does not fire rockets at the USA; British/Canadian fanatics do not blow themselves up on buses full of of-duty US soldiers; and the USA doesn't allow fanatics to settle in enclaves on the Canadian side of the 49th parallel, protected by a wall that encroaches North of the border in loads of places.

Clearly your 'fundamental cause' is not sufficient to explain the situation.

There is nobody in the Middle East who is blameless, and Israel is at least as blameworthy as anyone else.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Renounced violence? What were the rockets they fired in the latest spat, then?

The Palestinian Authority has NEVER fired a rocket at Israel. Not once. Quite the contrary in fact, there have been two separate incidents where Israeli settlers in the West Bank have fired home made rockets at the Palestinian Authority.

I'll remind you (since you seem to have forgotten) that Mahmoud Abbas is neither a member nor a leader of Hamas.

Abbas, probably not.

Indeed.

The ONLY wild card in this determination is Hamas, and then only in speculation as to whether or not assimilating them into the Palestinian Authority will radicalize the P.A. or drive Hamas to adopt more pragmatic solutions in the future. Recent history suggests the latter is the case, but even if it ISN'T, the fact of the matter is that Abbas is currently the leader of the Palestinian Authority and would remain so even if a unity government was formed with Hamas. To say that "the Palestinians" would not abide by the agreement is to suggest that ABBAS would not abide by it, and thank is, frankly, absurd.

The combination government will be violent.

That is something you cannot know, especially if Abbas remains in charge of that government and all indications suggest that he would. You may believe personally that Abbas' Palestinian authority cannot successfully reign in Hamas' militancy... but then, you've been claiming for years that Hamas should be able to reign in the smaller militant groups in the Gaza Strip if it chose to and you hold them responsible for failing to do so.

If you expect Hamas to be able to tame Islamic Jihad or the PFLP, why would Abbas be unable to do the same?

The basic problem is the billions paid to those who will attack Israel. So long as that money pours in there will be war.

You don't really expect me to believe Mahmoud Abbas is going to pay "billions" of dollars to terrorists, do you?

 

[arkirk]

Israel chooses to call resistance to oppression and theft of land "war" and uses a blockade to crush resistance to oppression.

Israel creates a de-facto state of war because of decades of oppression that started before Hamas existed.

Hamas arises from oppression.

It is absurd to claim it is the cause of the oppression.

The reason for the fighting has nothing to do with whether it is war.

And the war started before Israel even existed, you can't blame Israel's actions for it. The fundamental cause is the existence of a non-Muslim government on land they considered conquered.

Or could it be the existence of a strictly Jewish state in lands taken from Muslims? It depends on who you are how you think about it. Surely the current situation in Israel is unacceptable to people who believe in human rights for all kinds of people...even Muslims.

 

[laughing dog]

What international law, treaty or agreement section gives the gov't of Israel the legal right to withhold payment of its obligations? Either Abbas violated some agreement somewhere and the gov't of Israel is within its rights to withhold these payments or Abbas did not and the gov't of Israel is not within its rights. It really is that simple.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason for the fighting has nothing to do with whether it is war.

And the war started before Israel even existed, you can't blame Israel's actions for it. The fundamental cause is the existence of a non-Muslim government on land they considered conquered their own.

People who lived there considered it their land. 'Conquest' is irrelevant.

Every piece of land in the world is governed by someone who took it from someone who considered it theirs.

And every piece of land in the world has been taken at some time by conquest; usually several times.

If the fundamental cause of strife in the Middle East was as you say it is, the whole planet would be a war-zone.

The US Government exists on land that the British considered conquered. But the British dominion of Canada does not fire rockets at the USA; British/Canadian fanatics do not blow themselves up on buses full of of-duty US soldiers; and the USA doesn't allow fanatics to settle in enclaves on the Canadian side of the 49th parallel, protected by a wall that encroaches North of the border in loads of places.

Clearly your 'fundamental cause' is not sufficient to explain the situation.

There is nobody in the Middle East who is blameless, and Israel is at least as blameworthy as anyone else.

What you are missing is that it's not a matter of the people, but the religion. They consider the religion to own the land and go ape when that's no longer true.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Palestinian Authority has NEVER fired a rocket at Israel. Not once. Quite the contrary in fact, there have been two separate incidents where Israeli settlers in the West Bank have fired home made rockets at the Palestinian Authority.

They took credit for firing rockets at Israel. Whether that was just bragging or birds really flew I do not know.

The combination government will be violent.

That is something you cannot know, especially if Abbas remains in charge of that government and all indications suggest that he would. You may believe personally that Abbas' Palestinian authority cannot successfully reign in Hamas' militancy... but then, you've been claiming for years that Hamas should be able to reign in the smaller militant groups in the Gaza Strip if it chose to and you hold them responsible for failing to do so.

If the combination government isn't violent Hamas would just continue the violence anyway.

If you expect Hamas to be able to tame Islamic Jihad or the PFLP, why would Abbas be unable to do the same?

Of course he can't. That's irrelevant. The reality is that no Palestinian government is capable of actually delivering peace in the current world situation. Any peace treaty would be fraud.

The basic problem is the billions paid to those who will attack Israel. So long as that money pours in there will be war.

You don't really expect me to believe Mahmoud Abbas is going to pay "billions" of dollars to terrorists, do you?

You misunderstand. The Palestinians are basically puppets in this, not the instigators.

For those look to places like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Syria. So long as they spend the money there will be war.

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The reason for the fighting has nothing to do with whether it is war.

And the war started before Israel even existed, you can't blame Israel's actions for it. The fundamental cause is the existence of a non-Muslim government on land they considered conquered.

Or could it be the existence of a strictly Jewish state in lands taken from Muslims? It depends on who you are how you think about it. Surely the current situation in Israel is unacceptable to people who believe in human rights for all kinds of people...even Muslims.

The majority of the people in that land wanted it to be a Jewish state.

- - - Updated - - -

What international law, treaty or agreement section gives the gov't of Israel the legal right to withhold payment of its obligations? Either Abbas violated some agreement somewhere and the gov't of Israel is within its rights to withhold these payments or Abbas did not and the gov't of Israel is not within its rights. It really is that simple.

What international law, treaty or agreement section imposes any obligation to a country to pay money to a country they are at war with?

 

[arkirk]

I can't force reality into the minds of everyone.

But at least we can recognize one side is conducting a blockade and one side is the victim of a blockade.

One side is the oppressor and the other is being oppressed.

And it is not being oppressed by the entity fighting oppression. That entity only exists because of the oppression.

You can't claim the thing your oppression creates is the real oppressor.

A blockade is a perfectly legal and common act of war. A de-facto state of war exists between Israel and Hamas. The blockade is legal.

In fact, it would be legal for Israel to not allow anything through. They're bending over backwards in allowing civilian goods through.

- - - Updated - - -

Laws that are just are only written to guarantee civil peace. There are no real "laws of war." When I read your post about lefty ignorance, of non-existent laws, it struck me how far off base you are. You speak of such things as if there was a cookbook formula for making war that was somehow legal. There are plenty of cookbooks for this but they are all used by the varied and sundry criminals that engage in it. And yes...Obama is over the line with drones. We are forced to live in this world with these criminals and when Loren suggests that any of them has any legitimacy in their acts of war, he validates them and makes his case for continued warfare till our race is no more.

Something I have noticed about Loren's "laws of war": They only empower the Jews in Palestine and only find fault and guilt with the original inhabitants of the area....the Palestinians.

There's no enforcement body but the are commonly accepted standards of how to conduct war specifically aimed at minimizing the harm to non-combatants.

That ain't law, Loren... That is just the opinion of those who have the upper hand at any time. Boca Haram kills everyone. They think that is the LAW. Obama kills lots of people that have nothing to do with his enemies. Signature strikes....what opinion lets these happen? You are out to lunch on this one. War is lawlessness.