Israel/Palestine derail from Ferguson thread.

[spikepipsqueak]

Let's hear some facts and substantial discussion rather than unsupported opinion people.

 

[Tigers!]

A nice pious hope.

 

[untermensche]

Is it possible to agree on principles?

Like those oppressed should not be thought of as equal to those oppressing.

And even more so when the oppressor is substantially more powerful than those it is oppressing.

So if some member of the oppressed commits crimes in protest of oppression, even if they are illegitimate and immoral actions, those crimes are not the same as the crimes of a powerful state.

Can it be accepted that the mere act of oppression leads to bad behavior in some of the oppressed?

And that ultimate responsibility for any crimes in protest of oppression rests on the oppressor.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is it possible to agree on principles?

Like those oppressed should not be thought of as equal to those oppressing.

What you are missing is that the real oppressors are the Arabs.

And even more so when the oppressor is substantially more powerful than those it is oppressing.

That's normally the case and thus a red herring.

So if some member of the oppressed commits crimes in protest of oppression, even if they are illegitimate and immoral actions, those crimes are not the same as the crimes of a powerful state.

Here I totally disagree. Wrong is wrong.

Can it be accepted that the mere act of oppression leads to bad behavior in some of the oppressed?

Reality--there are no meaningful resistance movements in areas with major oppression. We see big terrorist movements only when some outside force is funding them--in this case, the Islamists. In other words, when the "oppressor" is non-Muslim.

And that ultimate responsibility for any crimes in protest of oppression rests on the oppressor.

It's not 1984.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

What you are missing is that the real oppressors are the Arabs.

There are multiple oppressors. Israel's hands are not clean here.

 

[untermensche]

What you are missing is that the real oppressors are the Arabs.

They are not oppressing the Israelis.

The Israelis are oppressing the Palestinians.

Which has led to a miserable society where some Palestinians oppress other Palestinians.

All of it the moral responsibility of Israel.

Here I totally disagree. Wrong is wrong.

So the effects of oppression is no different from being the oppressor?

Would you blame the slave for attacking the master whipping him?

He is breaking the law. Wrong is wrong.

And that ultimate responsibility for any crimes in protest of oppression rests on the oppressor.

It's not 1984.

I know.

So to you the slave that attacks the master is just as bad as the master whipping the slave.

Your lack of any moral compass is noted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They are not oppressing the Israelis.

I never said they were. I said the Arabs are the ones doing it.

The Israelis are oppressing the Palestinians.

Which has led to a miserable society where some Palestinians oppress other Palestinians.

All of it the moral responsibility of Israel.

Who kept the Palestinians in refugee camps? Jordan and Egypt. Who strips citizenship from Palestinians? Various Arab nations. It's all to keep them down to use as weapons against Israel.

So the effects of oppression is no different from being the oppressor?

Would you blame the slave for attacking the master whipping him?

He is breaking the law. Wrong is wrong.

Except the Palestinians aren't trying to whip the "master", but rather his children.

And that ultimate responsibility for any crimes in protest of oppression rests on the oppressor.

It's not 1984.

I know.

So to you the slave that attacks the master is just as bad as the master whipping the slave.

Your lack of any moral compass is noted.

No. I think attacking innocents is wrong, whichever side you are on.

 

[untermensche]

No. I think attacking innocents is wrong, whichever side you are on.

So if the slave must harm some innocent to escape is harming the innocent wrong or is forcing somebody into slavery the wrong?

Is resisting oppression wrong or is the oppression the wrong?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. I think attacking innocents is wrong, whichever side you are on.

So if the slave must harm some innocent to escape is harming the innocent wrong or is forcing somebody into slavery the wrong?

Is resisting oppression wrong or is the oppression the wrong?

You don't aim at innocents, period.

 

[untermensche]

No. I think attacking innocents is wrong, whichever side you are on.

So if the slave must harm some innocent to escape is harming the innocent wrong or is forcing somebody into slavery the wrong?

Is resisting oppression wrong or is the oppression the wrong?

You don't aim at innocents, period.

Yes.

If millions are oppressed by a greater power for decades, stolen from for decades, that is meaningless is the oppressor suffers any injustices.

 

[ZiprHead]

No. I think attacking innocents is wrong, whichever side you are on.

So if the slave must harm some innocent to escape is harming the innocent wrong or is forcing somebody into slavery the wrong?

Is resisting oppression wrong or is the oppression the wrong?

You don't aim at innocents, period.

Who are these innocents you speak of?

 

[Ford]

You don't aim at innocents, period.

Who are these innocents you speak of?

You have to understand that Loren believes the nation of Israel is innocent of everything. In the entire history of the country they've done not a thing wrong, and whatever problems exist in the region are caused by the dirty Arabs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You don't aim at innocents, period.

Yes.

If millions are oppressed by a greater power for decades, stolen from for decades, that is meaningless is the oppressor suffers any injustices.

You agree with what I said but then turn around and imply that attacking innocents on the oppressor's side is acceptable.

- - - Updated - - -

You don't aim at innocents, period.

Who are these innocents you speak of?

Non-combatants are innocents.

 

[untermensche]

Yes.

If millions are oppressed by a greater power for decades, stolen from for decades, that is meaningless is the oppressor suffers any injustices.

You agree with what I said but then turn around and imply that attacking innocents on the oppressor's side is acceptable.

What you said is called exceptionalism.

It is not morality.

Israeli oppression is aimed directly at civilians.

Crushing an economy and stealing from people hurts civilians.

Many many civilians suffer everyday because of Israeli oppression.

Many many civilians have been targeted. And many have been killed.

It is insane to state that civilians are off limits and then not despise Israeli policies over the last decades.

It is nothing but hypocrisy.

Any claim that Israel is not directly targeting many many civilians with it's immoral policies of oppression and theft is a lie and a despicable belief.

 

[ZiprHead]

You don't aim at innocents, period.

Who are these innocents you speak of?

Non-combatants are innocents.

Were the supporters of naziism, those that gave their time, money, and labor for the cause, but didn't actually join the fight innocent?

By your standard, Hitler was innocent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes.

If millions are oppressed by a greater power for decades, stolen from for decades, that is meaningless is the oppressor suffers any injustices.

You agree with what I said but then turn around and imply that attacking innocents on the oppressor's side is acceptable.

What you said is called exceptionalism.

It is not morality.

Israeli oppression is aimed directly at civilians.

Crushing an economy and stealing from people hurts civilians.

Israel isn't crushing the Palestinian economy--they never had that much of an economy in the first place. Much of their money used to come from Palestinians working in Israel, when that became too dangerous for Israel the Palestinians got hurt by the lack of those jobs. This is directly the fault of the Palestinian government.

Or take the continued examples of Palestinian farmers losing crops because Israel closed the crossing and the crops spoiled. Look at why they closed the crossing--Hamas attacked it. Once again the underlying cause is the Palestinians, not Israel.

Many many civilians have been targeted. And many have been killed.

Got some evidence of civilians being targeted? Many of those "civilians" that are "targeted" were bodyguards riding in the vehicle of the guy who actually was being targeted. And others were storing weapons that were the actual target--and Hamas often doesn't let people flee when Israel warns the building is about to be attacked.

Terrorists do not wear uniforms, thus Israeli targeting is based on someone's actions. If they are engaged in military activities they are not civilian no matter what they otherwise look like.

Any claim that Israel is not directly targeting many many civilians with it's immoral policies of oppression and theft is a lie and a despicable belief.

No, the lie is that Israel is targeting civilians.

- - - Updated - - -

Non-combatants are innocents.

Were the supporters of naziism, those that gave their time, money, and labor for the cause, but didn't actually join the fight innocent?

By your standard, Hitler was innocent.

Giving orders to fight is joining the fight.

 

[Derec]

UN is worse than useless. They will not even condemn the terrorist group Hamas.
UN rejects first attempt to condemn Hamas
But they will condemn Israel many times a year.

 

[untermensche]

What you said is called exceptionalism.

It is not morality.

Israeli oppression is aimed directly at civilians.

Crushing an economy and stealing from people hurts civilians.

Israel isn't crushing the Palestinian economy--..

Occupation, Natural Resource Exploitation by Israel Hindering Social, Economic Gains in Palestinian Lands, Syrian Golan, Delegates Tell Second Committee

Israel had carried out military decisions and discriminatory laws which impacted Palestinian natural resources and economic development, said the representative of the State of Palestine. By taking over his State’s resources, Israel had imposed full control on Palestinian trade and guaranteed that its economy would be almost completely subservient to Israel. Israel had also deprived Palestine World Trade Organization (WTO) benefits of 14.5 per cent for transport, transit and shipping fees of low‑income States.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/occupation-natural-resource-exploitation-israel-hindering

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Occupation, Natural Resource Exploitation by Israel Hindering Social, Economic Gains in Palestinian Lands, Syrian Golan, Delegates Tell Second Committee

Israel had carried out military decisions and discriminatory laws which impacted Palestinian natural resources and economic development, said the representative of the State of Palestine. By taking over his State’s resources, Israel had imposed full control on Palestinian trade and guaranteed that its economy would be almost completely subservient to Israel. Israel had also deprived Palestine World Trade Organization (WTO) benefits of 14.5 per cent for transport, transit and shipping fees of low‑income States.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/occupation-natural-resource-exploitation-israel-hindering

"said the representative of the State of Palestine". In other words, simply accepting that the Palestinians say that Israel is doing this.

 

[untermensche]

Israel had carried out military decisions and discriminatory laws which impacted Palestinian natural resources and economic development, said the representative of the State of Palestine. By taking over his State’s resources, Israel had imposed full control on Palestinian trade and guaranteed that its economy would be almost completely subservient to Israel. Israel had also deprived Palestine World Trade Organization (WTO) benefits of 14.5 per cent for transport, transit and shipping fees of low‑income States.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/occupation-natural-resource-exploitation-israel-hindering

"said the representative of the State of Palestine". In other words, simply accepting that the Palestinians say that Israel is doing this.

I know he is a dirty lying dark-skinned Palestinian.

Who do you want to talk about the Palestinian economy?

Somebody from the nation oppressing them?

Oppressors never lie.