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It's Dangerous to Be a Boy NYT article

Actually, I read that they determined (study of adopted children ) it's nature 75% and only 25% nurture. Basically, nurture is greatly overrated :)

I would strongly doubt that the ratio is a settled issue.

That said, personally (speaking as a non-expert) I tend to agree that it's more nature than nurture. My not believing in free will only adds an extra layer to this view. But it is probably best not to segue onto that aspect of the matter. :)

I would also agree that nurture is probably overrated, at least by some. Not all. In popular culture, I think it is overrated.

A citation for that study would be interesting though.
 
Actually, I read that they determined (study of adopted children ) it's nature 75% and only 25% nurture. Basically, nurture is greatly overrated :)

I would strongly doubt that the ratio is a settled issue.

That said, personally (speaking as a non-expert) I tend to agree that it's more nature than nurture. My not believing in free will only adds an extra layer to this view. But it is probably best not to segue onto that aspect of the matter. :)

I would also agree that nurture is probably overrated, at least by some. Not all. In popular culture, I think it is overrated.

A citation for that study would be interesting though.

I did not read the study itself, just some wikipedia article which has link to it. But yeah, there are arguments against adoption, if you don't know who the biological parents are, could be couple of psychos.
 
Let's say, for the sake of argument and hypothetically, that nature was ......75% to blame and nurture only 25%. Or 60:40 or whatever.

This would, I think, automatically throw up a controversy in the minds of many reasonable people, who might rightly worry that the 'I could not help myself' (or 'men can't help it') defence would make its way, even if only partially, into judgements.

Obviously, while not being unreasonable, there is imo quite a bit of alarmism in worrying about that.

And in some ways, it's odd that by and large society behaves 'as if' better nurture (and/or 'free' choices) offers the best hope for solutions (to the problems of violence and aggression in this case) at a time when the general idea that genetics might offer potential remedies for 'almost anything' is also gaining popularity and indeed some credibility.

Which I think makes the issue a conundrum of sorts.
 
This would, I think, automatically throw up a controversy in the minds of many reasonable people, who might rightly worry that the 'I could not help myself' (or 'men can't help it') defence would make its way, even if only partially, into judgements.
As far as conscious criminal behavior is concerned I think these 25% nurture is more than enough to work for 99% of people.
Remaining 1% I think are, in fact, in "can't help themselves" category. I mean you really think serial killers can help themselves?
 
Are identical twin serial killers a thing? Parralel killers
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2090549_2090540_2090536,00.html
Although identical twins Stephen and Robert Bruce Spahalski were both killers, each acted alone, unaware of the other's homicidal tendencies. "I thought I was the only murderer in the family,".......

So they share nearly identical genetics and upbringing: nature plus nurture.

The case for nature would be stronger if they were raised separately and under different circumstances.
 
As far as conscious criminal behavior is concerned I think these 25% nurture is more than enough to work for 99% of people.
Remaining 1% I think are, in fact, in "can't help themselves" category. I mean you really think serial killers can help themselves?

You are very good at coming up with numbers and percentages. :)

Ultimately, since I don't believe in free will, I don't actually believe anyone can help themselves. But, for day to day purposes, it makes sense to deal with things 'as if' we had free will. And whatever faculties and abilities we do have, whatever we call them, it's true that some have more of them, more 'regulatory capacities' than others. A particular serial killer (I'm sure they don't all share the same characteristics or conditions) may have less than, say, you or me. A very small child also would have less than a typical adult. Or someone with Dementia would have less. Etc.

For that and other reasons, the issue of 'diminished responsibility' is tricky. But in pragmatic terms, it need not and arguably should not make very much difference at all to what is arguably the most important aspect of all this, namely how to reduce the problems. I think the answers to that, the potential solutions in other words, are largely the same whether it's nature or nurture (and of course it's almost certainly a mix in the great majority of cases). And to me, since the behaviours apparently result from a mix of nature and nurture, it would seem to make sense that the 'cures' should too.
 
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I definitely believe in free will. I also believe that some personality traits are heritable. Shyness can be inherited. So can introversion and extroversion. So can being impulsive or contemplative. I also believe that the impulse for fight or flight is inborn and inherited.

I also believe that each of these traits can be exacerbated or moderated --or enhanced or evened out depending on a host of other factors, many of which are environmental and upbringing. Some environmental conditions might include exposure to hazardous substances such as lead or poor nutrition or lack of access to opportunities for socialization or education. Some are upbringing--an outgoing child can be encouraged in this tendency or discouraged, heavily. Introverts can be encouraged to find ways to be more comfortable engaging with others. They are still basically extroverts or introverts --and most of us are mixtures of introversion and extroversion. I've watched some pretty determined people attempt to force an introverted child to be more extroverted--which did not work. At all. And, imo, only drove the child to withdraw more into themself. Impulsive behavior can be moderated---children can be encouraged to develop patience and to be more calm and to think things through a little more. They may always still be impulsive but that doesn't mean they MUST always be out of control impulsive.

Some children are more inclined to be physical, to express their feelings physically, to run, jump, climb--and sometimes to hit or push. Again, these behaviors can be modified and channeled but more physical people are more likely to always be more physical. This is not the same thing as saying that violent behavior is inherent and cannot be moderated by how a child is raised.

Even sociopaths can learn appropriate behavior, even if they never feel things the same way that other people do. They may choose to behave in a certain way that others find more acceptable because being accepted benefits them compared with how most people operate: treating others well out of empathy and sympathy.
 
I also believe that some personality traits are heritable. Shyness can be inherited. So can introversion and extroversion. So can being impulsive or contemplative. I also believe that the impulse for fight or flight is inborn and inherited.

I also believe that each of these traits can be exacerbated or moderated --or enhanced or evened out depending on a host of other factors, many of which are environmental and upbringing. Some environmental conditions might include exposure to hazardous substances such as lead or poor nutrition or lack of access to opportunities for socialization or education. Some are upbringing--an outgoing child can be encouraged in this tendency or discouraged, heavily. Introverts can be encouraged to find ways to be more comfortable engaging with others. They are still basically extroverts or introverts --and most of us are mixtures of introversion and extroversion. I've watched some pretty determined people attempt to force an introverted child to be more extroverted--which did not work. At all. And, imo, only drove the child to withdraw more into themself. Impulsive behavior can be moderated---children can be encouraged to develop patience and to be more calm and to think things through a little more. They may always still be impulsive but that doesn't mean they MUST always be out of control impulsive.

Some children are more inclined to be physical, to express their feelings physically, to run, jump, climb--and sometimes to hit or push. Again, these behaviors can be modified and channeled but more physical people are more likely to always be more physical. This is not the same thing as saying that violent behavior is inherent and cannot be moderated by how a child is raised.

Even sociopaths can learn appropriate behavior, even if they never feel things the same way that other people do. They may choose to behave in a certain way that others find more acceptable because being accepted benefits them compared with how most people operate: treating others well out of empathy and sympathy.

Yes to all of that. You might notice I snipped out the free will bit before saying that. We don't need to get into that and in any case it's intractable. :)

In a nutshell, things can be learned. Whatever nature provides, it can be moderated to some extent, including deliberately, by, say, parents. And between the birth of a child and for a number of (crucial, formative) years after, parents can have an enormous influence, usually way beyond any other 'environmental' influence. So one way to approach the issue would be to encourage parents not to impart or encourage traditional gender roles. Obviously, I am not in favour of children being brought up to conform to traditional gender roles.

But even that can be tricky. Upbringings do not take place in a social vacuum. By that I mean that a parent might think to themselves (about for example their infant boy) that he will soon have to enter the world of boys (and men) and.......well, that parent won't want their boy to be the one who the other boys pick on. And so on. In other words, I think at least part of the reason parents make gender role distinctions for their children is because they are trying to best prepare them for the real, gendered world and not some ideal one where gender doesn't matter.

Obviously the best approach, as with most things, will involve balance and nuance, and attention to the needs and characteristics of the particular child and the particular situations and so on. For example, a parent bringing up a boy in a rough or deprived neighbourhood has certain things to consider that a parent in a more affluent, privileged neighbourhood might not have to worry about so much. I doubt there'll be a 'one size fits all' set of solutions.

It may be that this is what the writer of the OP article was doing when as a father he literally shut the door to his small son. That's certainly an interesting (and poignant) example. As a parent of a girl who found herself in a similar situation with a clique of girls and sometimes came home in tears, I empathised. The OP article writer's question, to himself, about whether, by making his boy 'toughen up', he was reinforcing unhelpful, 'boys don't cry, they man up' gender roles, is a good one, I think. The writer himself seems to have at least some minor regrets along those lines. It might also be that the writer felt that it was his job, as a dad (and not a mum) to impart the 'tough love'. Which of course is often the way these gender roles make their way from generation to generation, the writer himself having been influenced by what he learned in his own life and upbringing, and so on and so forth.

In all of the above, I'm speaking in very general terms, obviously.
 
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Do you think culture/society and societal/cultural norms play any role?
Perhaps, but it will never happen until the military industrial complex is taken down. And that will never ever happen, because when some rare anti war politician like Trump does finally get into office, it is the people like yourself and Nancy Peloci who do their best to end his time in office.


Trump has actively encouraged criminal violence against those who disagree with him, bragged about his violence against women, defended wife beaters, and threatened to use the police and military to enact violence against the media and his political enemies. Trump simply prefers to use the government to engage in violence against the less powerful people residing in the US rather than those outside of it.
 
Are identical twin serial killers a thing? Parralel killers
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2090549_2090540_2090536,00.html
Although identical twins Stephen and Robert Bruce Spahalski were both killers, each acted alone, unaware of the other's homicidal tendencies. "I thought I was the only murderer in the family,".......

What % of serial killers with a twin, have a serial killer twin? If your claim that serial killers can't help themselves were true, then nearly 100% of serial killers with a twin would have a serial killing twin. If fact, 50% of serial killers with one sibling would have a serial killer sibling and 100% for those with 2 or more siblings.

I'm sure the numbers aren't remotely close to that, which means that serial killing is highly environmental/changeable/preventable.

Odds are that the more extreme behaviors are extreme b/c they are a results of a rare combination particular genes in a particular environment. Almost all of the variation in aggression accounted for by genes themselves (or environment itself) is going to be the minor variations that fall within a range of normal everyday behavior.
 
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Given the clear and established causal relationship between testosterone levels and physical aggression within males, and that men average 20 times the testosterone as women, it's likely that is the major cause of greater physical aggression in men. It is not coincidence that the same hormone that makes a person more psychologically prone to physical attack also makes their muscles better to realize violent goals.

The evidence is not merely correlational, but causal showing effects of both increasing and decreasing testosterone to humans and non-human mammals, and the neural mechanisms are fairly well understood.


[P] The action of testosterone on the brain begins in the embryonic stage. Earlier in development at the DNA level, the number of CAG repeats in the androgen receptor gene seems to play a role in the expression of aggressive behavior. Neuroimaging techniques in adult males have shown that testosterone activates the amygdala enhancing its emotional activity and its resistance to prefrontal restraining control. This effect is opposed by the action of cortisol which facilitates prefrontal area cognitive control on impulsive tendencies aroused in the subcortical structures. The degree of impulsivity is regulated by serotonin inhibiting receptors, and with the intervention of this neurotransmitter the major agents of the neuroendocrine influence on the brain process of aggression forms a triad. Testosterone activates the subcortical areas of the brain to produce aggression, while cortisol and serotonin act antagonistically with testosterone to reduce its effects.[/P]

And it isn't just current blood levels of testosterone that matter, but the way testosterone exposure in-utero and during puberty shape the brain structures (which is why post-puberty hormone therapy can never undo many of the psychological or bodily differences caused by hormones). Plus, as the quote above notes, cortisol inhibits aggression, which is relevant b/c cortisol averages about 20% higher in women.

This doesn't mean that men cannot be socialized to reduce violent behaviors, either on average or among the more extremely violently men (or that women can't be socialized to be more violent). It just means that eliminating particularly poor socialization won't be sufficient, and you'd need to aggressively (ha!) try to impede the natural impulses of many males and hormone therapy may be needed for some.

Also, it isn't clear that the physical aggression boys use to control each other is any more harmful to boys and those that have to live with the men they become, than the forms of social and emotional manipulation that girls use to control each other. Give me a wedgie over some of that mean-girl shit anyday :)
 
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