It's EITHER/OR

[Harry Bosch]

Yeah, that's what he said. Nice job of reading for comprehension.

Would not the money be better spent on education and social security as Akirk suggested in the Opening Post

Is that how they do things in Russia?

Anyway, it seems that ones needs to be seriously confused to make an argument that drones are more costly than human crewed jets.

What's Russia got to do with anything stated by Akirk and responded to?

Because the Russians on this forum promote this BS that they support Trump because they are pro peace and liberal.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Neoliberal leadership?
Who's pretending to be liberal and in charge right now....?

Obama expanded the drone program greatly. He is a corporatist and a person who was solely at the disposal of his rich donors. He pretended to be liberal to get elected but really was of the same cut as Reagan and Bush. Neoliberal is PRETEND LIBERAL. Like the Clintons...war mongers and denier of all the things our society lacks but should have. This Drone thing is just on of a whole list of economic crimes being perpetrated by Neoliberals against the working class in Amerika.

What are you whinning about? Trump won. The republicans control everything now. Are you having buyers remorse or something? Your side won.

 

[Malintent]

Yes, thanks, but you said our country IS losing its leadership under neoliberal leadership. Not WAS.

Neoliberal is PRETEND LIBERAL.

Yeah, got that. That wasn't the part i needed explained, thanks.
I wanted to know who you're talking about today.

Like the Clintons...war mongers and denier of all the things our society lacks but should have. This Drone thing is just on of a whole list of economic crimes being perpetrated by Neoliberals against the working class in Amerika.

Being perpetrated you say?

By who?

Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, military suppliers and manufacturers, contractors, munitions makers, generals angling for a cushy job when they retire, By who? The list is much longer than this, but it should start you looking in the right direction. There are whole businesses who rely on wars continuing and possibly growning to keep their doors open and to keep the profits flowing in. The U.S. is in a resource war just about everywhere in the world with over 900 bases on foreign soil. These wars only feed the war industry and it aims by any means possible to keep them going.

Corporations are neo-liberals?
I'll believe that when the neo-cons start shutting them down.

No, corporations are individual, sentient entities with hopes, dreams, and closely held moral and religious beliefs... at least, according to our supreme court.

 

[J842P]

Obama expanded the drone program greatly. He is a corporatist and a person who was solely at the disposal of his rich donors. He pretended to be liberal to get elected but really was of the same cut as Reagan and Bush. Neoliberal is PRETEND LIBERAL. Like the Clintons...war mongers and denier of all the things our society lacks but should have. This Drone thing is just on of a whole list of economic crimes being perpetrated by Neoliberals against the working class in Amerika.

What are you whinning about? Trump won. The republicans control everything now. Are you having buyers remorse or something? Your side won.

You seriously think Akrik supported Trump?

 

[Elixir]

Yes, thanks, but you said our country IS losing its leadership under neoliberal leadership. Not WAS.

Neoliberal is PRETEND LIBERAL.

Yeah, got that. That wasn't the part i needed explained, thanks.
I wanted to know who you're talking about today.

Like the Clintons...war mongers and denier of all the things our society lacks but should have. This Drone thing is just on of a whole list of economic crimes being perpetrated by Neoliberals against the working class in Amerika.

Being perpetrated you say?

By who?

Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, military suppliers and manufacturers, contractors, munitions makers, generals angling for a cushy job when they retire, By who? The list is much longer than this, but it should start you looking in the right direction. There are whole businesses who rely on wars continuing and possibly growning to keep their doors open and to keep the profits flowing in. The U.S. is in a resource war just about everywhere in the world with over 900 bases on foreign soil. These wars only feed the war industry and it aims by any means possible to keep them going.

Corporations are neo-liberals?
I'll believe that when the neo-cons start shutting them down.

No, corporations are individual, sentient entities with hopes, dreams, and closely held moral and religious beliefs... at least, according to our supreme court.

Those must be "parent Companies". Gotta look out for the chilluns!

 

[J842P]

You're also talking past tense. I was asking akirk about his present tense complaint...

- - - Updated - - -

Neoliberal leadership?
Who's pretending to be liberal and in charge right now....?

I can't tell if you are joking.

It's the 'right now' that makes it clear. Akirk's OP uses 'is' not 'had been' or 'was' or 'in the recent past.'

I'll buy nazis or neonazis are in charge, but not liberals...

If you think Nazis and Neonazis are in charge then you are a fool. Trump's administration was never "Nazi".


Yeah, the hard right-wing in Israel supported the Nazis.

Christ, this would be funny if it weren't so disheartening. Get out of the liberal bubble. Trump's cabinet is **full** of Goldman Sach's people that are currently deregulating the financial industry and gutting government programs across the board, and slashing taxes on the rich. That is not Naziism, that is Neoliberalism.

Trump played the left like a fiddle.

 

[funinspace]

With greedy neoliberal leadership our country is losing its advantage day by day in the civilized world. It is pursuing a policy of violent enforcement of rules to keep rich people rich all over the world...at the cost of working tax payers here in Amerika.
View attachment 11503

While I know the drone programs are all the rage to....well rage against, it is really a poor target for such outrage as the total program cost comes in at under $12 billion.

The even more insanely expensive next generation Gerald Ford classaircraft carrier comes in at roughly $10.4 billion each, or $36.3 billion for the start of this upgrade program. Then there is F-35 fighter get coming in at $95 million each, or an estimated $1.5 trillion for the life of the program. Then there is the cost of spying on...well...most everyone, being higher in real dollars than during the height of the cold war.

F-22s and F-35s also cost $33,538 and $28,455 per operational flight hour. A Predator is only about $1,500 per hour.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallm...tarys-fighter-fleet-infographic/#27323e6b685f

 

[untermensche]

It's a myth that US spends little on education.

The question is, how are these funds spent? I think the education is in the US too politicized, from both left and right, which reduces effectiveness.

Meaningless.

As you say where exactly is the money going? How is it being used?

And what other social services are being utilized to make education easier, especially for the poor?

The US has several layers of education. There is not close to a level playing field.

For the inner city poor the education is many times substandard.

For the rich it is exclusive private schools that pay teachers more than the public schools.

 

[dismal]

With greedy neoliberal leadership our country is losing its advantage day by day in the civilized world. It is pursuing a policy of violent enforcement of rules to keep rich people rich all over the world...at the cost of working tax payers here in Amerika.
View attachment 11503

While I know the drone programs are all the rage to....well rage against, it is really a poor target for such outrage as the total program cost comes in at under $12 billion.

The even more insanely expensive next generation Gerald Ford classaircraft carrier comes in at roughly $10.4 billion each, or $36.3 billion for the start of this upgrade program. Then there is F-35 fighter get coming in at $95 million each, or an estimated $1.5 trillion for the life of the program. Then there is the cost of spying on...well...most everyone, being higher in real dollars than during the height of the cold war.

F-22s and F-35s also cost $33,538 and $28,455 per operational flight hour. A Predator is only about $1,500 per hour.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallm...tarys-fighter-fleet-infographic/#27323e6b685f

But, what you have overlooked is that the whole premise of this thread is wrong.

It totally ignores the fact that Government Spending is subject to a magickal multiplier that causes ripples of awesomeness to spread through the economy.

You spend 12 billion on a drone and the economy grows by 24.6 billion- which means you can buy more drones and more education which grow the economy even more.

I learned this from other threads here so it must be true.

 

[untermensche]

But, what you have overlooked is that the whole premise of this thread is wrong.

It totally ignores the fact that Government Spending is subject to a magickal multiplier that causes ripples of awesomeness to spread through the economy.

You spend 12 billion on a drone and the economy grows by 24.6 billion- which means you can buy more drones and more education which grow the economy even more.

I learned this from other threads here so it must be true.

What allows the economy to grow is the technology that is developed to make a drone.

Why can we have cell phones?

Because of all the government spending on communication technology and the system of satellites and towers utilizing these technologies.

The government absorbs huge costs in research and development. And when technologies that have commercial value arise the economy is bolstered.

What people want though is for the government to stop making weapons and start doing research for things more needed. Or investment in infrastructure and something like a high speed train system that already exists in many other nations.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If you think Nazis and Neonazis are in charge then you are a fool. Trump's administration was never "Nazi".


Yeah, the hard right-wing in Israel supported the Nazis.

Christ, this would be funny if it weren't so disheartening.

I'm terribly sorry to disappoint you so badly...

Get out of the liberal bubble. Trump's cabinet is **full** of Goldman Sach's people that are currently deregulating the financial industry and gutting government programs across the board, and slashing taxes on the rich. That is not Naziism, that is Neoliberalism.

I'm sure you're quite right. But that has little or nothing to do with what akirk was ranting about.

 

[Elixir]

Color me cognitively impaired, I guess. (Wouldn't be the first time...)

WTF is neo-liberalism as Akirk and J842P refer to it? Are they both talking about the same thing?
The quick def. I looked up just said "a modified form of liberalism tending to favor free-market capitalism."

It doesn't say what free market capitalism is favored over, or what the attributes of the "favoritism" referenced in the definition might be.

I tend to favor free market capitalism over, say, whatever you call what's going on in Venezuela... am I a neo-liberal?

Damn. I hope I'm not a neo-liberal; they sound like dreadful people!


ETA: Can one of our Russian trolls members please tell me something about Yandex? They're sending people to my website and it's making me nervous.

 

[untermensche]

Color me cognitively impaired, I guess. (Wouldn't be the first time...)

WTF is neo-liberalism as Akirk and J842P refer to it? Are they both talking about the same thing?
The quick def. I looked up just said "a modified form of liberalism tending to favor free-market capitalism."

It doesn't say what free market capitalism is favored over, or what the attributes of the "favoritism" referenced in the definition might be.

I tend to favor free market capitalism over, say, whatever you call what's going on in Venezuela... am I a neo-liberal?

Damn. I hope I'm not a neo-liberal; they sound like dreadful people!

Neo-Liberalism is modern day worship of what are called "free" markets, actually rigged markets.

It's economic philosophy is to lower taxes on the rich and watch the magic. Unfortunately what we get are bubbles and huge collapses, again and again, not magic.

 

[J842P]

Color me cognitively impaired, I guess. (Wouldn't be the first time...)

WTF is neo-liberalism as Akirk and J842P refer to it? Are they both talking about the same thing?
The quick def. I looked up just said "a modified form of liberalism tending to favor free-market capitalism."

It doesn't say what free market capitalism is favored over, or what the attributes of the "favoritism" referenced in the definition might be.

I tend to favor free market capitalism over, say, whatever you call what's going on in Venezuela... am I a neo-liberal?

Damn. I hope I'm not a neo-liberal; they sound like dreadful people!


ETA: Can one of our Russian trolls members please tell me something about Yandex? They're sending people to my website and it's making me nervous.

Here's a more complete synopsis, from wikipedia:

Neoliberalism (neo-liberalism)[1] refers primarily to the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism.[2]:7 These include extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.

But as with Jimmy, I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic, or you actually are unfamiliar with the term.

 

[Elixir]

Color me cognitively impaired, I guess. (Wouldn't be the first time...)

WTF is neo-liberalism as Akirk and J842P refer to it? Are they both talking about the same thing?
The quick def. I looked up just said "a modified form of liberalism tending to favor free-market capitalism."

It doesn't say what free market capitalism is favored over, or what the attributes of the "favoritism" referenced in the definition might be.

I tend to favor free market capitalism over, say, whatever you call what's going on in Venezuela... am I a neo-liberal?

Damn. I hope I'm not a neo-liberal; they sound like dreadful people!

Neo-Liberalism is modern day worship of what are called "free" markets, actually rigged markets.

It's economic philosophy is to lower taxes on the rich and watch the magic. Unfortunately what we get are bubbles and huge collapses, again and again, not magic.

Not being a religious sort, I feel vindicated. I don't worship markets, free or otherwise, and despise the sham called trickle-down economics.
Is that IT? People who want to lower taxes on the rich and let free markets run amok?
Why not just call them what they are? Republitards, or Rethuglicans?

 

[J842P]

Neo-Liberalism is modern day worship of what are called "free" markets, actually rigged markets.

It's economic philosophy is to lower taxes on the rich and watch the magic. Unfortunately what we get are bubbles and huge collapses, again and again, not magic.

Not being a religious sort, I feel vindicated. I don't worship markets, free or otherwise, and despise the sham called trickle-down economics.
Is that IT? People who want to lower taxes on the rich and let free markets run amok?
Why not just call them what they are? Republitards, or Rethuglicans?

Because the whole world isn't America Elixer. I know that may come as a shock, but these political ideologies span continents.

And of course, because many prominent Democrats are Neoliberals (the Clintons, Obama, etc).

Also, because not everyone is compelled to pepper their discourse with petty, partisan insults.

 

[Elixir]

Not being a religious sort, I feel vindicated. I don't worship markets, free or otherwise, and despise the sham called trickle-down economics.
Is that IT? People who want to lower taxes on the rich and let free markets run amok?
Why not just call them what they are? Republitards, or Rethuglicans?

Because the whole world isn't America Jimmy. I know that may come as a shock, but these political ideologies span continents.

Also, because not everyone is compelled to pepper their discourse with petty, partisan insults.

Oh. I though you and Akirk were talking about the US. My bad...

 

[J842P]

Oh. I though you and Akirk were talking about the US. My bad...

See my edit. Not all Neoliberals are Republicans. Although, it may be the case that all Republicans are Neoliberal. But the "New Democrats" are essentially Neoliberals, and in fact, they are pretty much Neoconservatives too.

If you must understand it in the context of the US, you can think of Neoliberalism as a rejection/reaction to the New Deal and the post-war Keynesian period.

 

[Elixir]

Oh. I though you and Akirk were talking about the US. My bad...

See my edit. Not all Neoliberals are Republicans. Although, it may be the case that all Republicans are Neoliberal. But the "New Democrats" are essentially Neoliberals, and in fact, they are pretty much Neoconservatives too.

If you must understand it in the context of the US, you can think of Neoliberalism as a rejection/reaction to the New Deal and the post-war Keynesian period.

Ok, I will consider both terms rendered meaningless.
I get that recent Democrat politicians are too similar to Republicans to warrant any attempt at differentiation. I caucused for Sanders, and felt that he was ripped off by the DNC - just as surely as we were all ripped off by Russian Fake News and interference in the election. We'll see what happens next... if the pendulum is allowed to swing back through its natural arc, I'd expect at least 2 branches to go Dem or independent by 2021. If Hillary were in the whitehouse, I'm sure we'd be looking at a Republican sweep by then.

 

[Elixir]

Here's a more complete synopsis, from wikipedia:

Neoliberalism (neo-liberalism)[1] refers primarily to the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism.[2]:7 These include extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.

But as with Jimmy, I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic, or you actually are unfamiliar with the term.

Thanks. I am/was actually unfamiliar with the term. I've heard it used but not in a context that gave it any meaning beyond "bad guy".
Sounds like libertarianism though... there are probably finer points that set it apart, but frankly the difference between dog shit and coyote shit is of more interest to me (I need to know when the coyotes are encroaching on my territory en masse).